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On October 09 2013 05:34 bombsauce wrote:
I would just like to say I cannot imagine another sports industry, or any other broadcasting industry period except news outlets, in which the broadcasters/production crew/sponsors or whatever are more important for the crowd draw than the actual players (teams) or participants.... or possibly prize pool relative stuff.
I'll admit I definitely like some casters more than others and there are a couple that force me to mute the stream to keep from raging, but I have NEVER watched a match purely to listen to the commentary or to support a caster. I watch streams and tournaments to see players I like and to appreciate the competition.
I support e-sports because to me it feels like watching physical sports which I also really enjoy.
I don't want it to sound like the casters don't deserve the money they make. They do work hard and I appreciate the building of the scene they have contributed. But attitudes like this make me cringe.. The idea that you are more important to the scene than the players and organizations that make your career possible (Regardless of the "Business-Meta" or what your industry buddies pander) seems downright shameful.
Honestly I don't disagree with the principle behind your idea. I've always said the players come first and we have to work on elevating them. Why do you think SHOUTcraft exists? It certainly wasn't to make a profit, I poured a lot of money into those events with no expectation of return. However your fallacy exists in the idea of the meritocracy, this notion that just because you think someone "deserves" more that they will get it. That's disconnected from reality. The only metric that matters is eyeballs, that's it. If you can bring in more eyeballs, you can demand more money. Starcraft for me is not a career, it's a hobby. I don't need Starcraft and I'd be a lot wealthier if I wasn't involved in it, the team, travel and time away from my usual earning in order to cover Starcraft events is all a financial drain. The relationship is synergistic. Yes without players there would be no professional casters, but without professional casters good luck getting anyone to pay the players. There is no scene without presentation and the people at the frontline of that are the casters. Do we not remember how many people Husky brought into SC2? The numbers on his videos are obscenely high. Even today his videos are getting more views than many tournament streams. He even pulls in 100,000 views with BRONZE LEAGUE PLAYERS, so the argument about pros being needed or he'd be out of a job is completely invalid. People like him, Day9, Tastosis and myself brought a lot of people into this scene, we were the entry point and when we produce content, we continue to keep people interested. Without casters, you would not maintain that level of interest.
Do players deserve more than us? Yes, in an ideal world they do. SC2 is weird, most players do not get paid more than top-tier casters but that's all down to exposure. Why would you pay a player a big chunk of your sponsorship revenue if they can't provide return on that investment reliably? What use is a player that enters a tournament but bombs out before they even get on camera? Unfortunately, not a whole lot. Yep, there's no risk that a caster will big kicked off stage halfway through, but that's also their power when it comes to providing ROI for sponsors and keeping interest on eSports, we get FAR more attention over a longer period of time than any given player does and that's needed to keep this scene healthy.
This is the reality of the business and to keep this scene going you need business-savvy people, not amateurs. When amateurs get involved and relied upon, well... things don't get done.
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+ Show Spoiler + On October 09 2013 07:55 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 09 2013 05:34 bombsauce wrote:
I would just like to say I cannot imagine another sports industry, or any other broadcasting industry period except news outlets, in which the broadcasters/production crew/sponsors or whatever are more important for the crowd draw than the actual players (teams) or participants.... or possibly prize pool relative stuff.
I'll admit I definitely like some casters more than others and there are a couple that force me to mute the stream to keep from raging, but I have NEVER watched a match purely to listen to the commentary or to support a caster. I watch streams and tournaments to see players I like and to appreciate the competition.
I support e-sports because to me it feels like watching physical sports which I also really enjoy.
I don't want it to sound like the casters don't deserve the money they make. They do work hard and I appreciate the building of the scene they have contributed. But attitudes like this make me cringe.. The idea that you are more important to the scene than the players and organizations that make your career possible (Regardless of the "Business-Meta" or what your industry buddies pander) seems downright shameful. Honestly I don't disagree with the principle behind your idea. I've always said the players come first and we have to work on elevating them. Why do you think SHOUTcraft exists? It certainly wasn't to make a profit, I poured a lot of money into those events with no expectation of return. However your fallacy exists in the idea of the meritocracy, this notion that just because you think someone "deserves" more that they will get it. That's disconnected from reality. The only metric that matters is eyeballs, that's it. If you can bring in more eyeballs, you can demand more money. Starcraft for me is not a career, it's a hobby. I don't need Starcraft and I'd be a lot wealthier if I wasn't involved in it, the team, travel and time away from my usual earning in order to cover Starcraft events is all a financial drain. The relationship is synergistic. Yes without players there would be no professional casters, but without professional casters good luck getting anyone to pay the players. There is no scene without presentation and the people at the frontline of that are the casters. Do we not remember how many people Husky brought into SC2? The numbers on his videos are obscenely high. Even today his videos are getting more views than many tournament streams. He even pulls in 100,000 views with BRONZE LEAGUE PLAYERS, so the argument about pros being needed or he'd be out of a job is completely invalid. People like him, Day9, Tastosis and myself brought a lot of people into this scene, we were the entry point and when we produce content, we continue to keep people interested. Without casters, you would not maintain that level of interest. Do players deserve more than us? Yes, in an ideal world they do. SC2 is weird, most players do not get paid more than top-tier casters but that's all down to exposure. Why would you pay a player a big chunk of your sponsorship revenue if they can't provide return on that investment reliably? What use is a player that enters a tournament but bombs out before they even get on camera? Unfortunately, not a whole lot. Yep, there's no risk that a caster will big kicked off stage halfway through, but that's also their power when it comes to providing ROI for sponsors and keeping interest on eSports, we get FAR more attention over a longer period of time than any given player does and that's needed to keep this scene healthy. This is the reality of the business and to keep this scene going you need business-savvy people, not amateurs. When amateurs get involved, well... documentaries don't get finished.
Here is my longwinded rant to the caster and eyeballs topic. (in spoiler because I don't want to keep the thread tangent to long)
+ Show Spoiler +Yes, I understand the business metric or eyeballs as you put it, I know the money is in advertising. Also again, maybe I came off a little heated before but I made another post in this vein, I do not want to diminish the effort and contribution of casters like yourself. Obviously you are critical to the scene as a whole and I can't deny without the efforts for things like SHOUTcraft and Husky.. (although I actually much preferred HDstarcraft..zerglove) we wouldn't have close to the SC2 community that we do. + Show Spoiler + although I would like to say that I have no pity for the guy that spends his free/hobby/love time around starcraft and still makes money for it albeit less than a regular job. This is every nerd's dream come true However, I want to point out a few things. There is a difference between match casting and content creation. Husky, SOTG, SHOUTcraft, Day9 Daily, and all that original content (read pseudo-journalism... and some real journalism!) absolutely deserve all the money they earn their creators and the fame and notoriety they bring. That is the perfect venue for self-plugging and self-aggrandizing. YOU created the content, YOU contributed to the community, YOU reap the benefit. But, when it comes to sanctioned (WCS) tournaments or other arenas of dedicated competition where the viewers are there to see the great StarCraft and some history, that is absolutely not the place for self publicizing. That is where the players get their chance to even start getting that exposure. How can up and coming players even get their foot in the door if the casters spend more time dropping their own twitter accounts (#attnwhr) than giving as much information as possible about the players? How about some personal player backstory with interview content? How about giving the players twitter account and stream link and some mentions of upcoming tournaments they will appear in? (this is really production's role not purely the caster, but at the juvenile stage of e-sports in general, everything needs to be collaboration) To me, the business issue here is that the teams and players get taken advantage of by production companies. The lack of a player's union and core league governing body is really the crux of most problems in this regard but I don't really want to get into a long business ethics discussion here. Really my original point is that regardless of the status quo, it does no good to come into these threads and espouse viewer numbers and self-importance to justify caster income because it really casts the entire ilk in a bad light of greed and holier-than-thou preening. /rant
Also yes, clearly the problem here is the amateur handling of professional jobs which goes hand-in-hand with the ignorant donators (I would bet a fair amount of money came from mom or dad's debit account).
I don't really have much of a horse in this race because while I'm happy to pay for content and watch advertisements, I consider "donations" can be much better spent than on a SC2 documentary. I am sure there is legitimate funding available in the proper avenues are pursued almost guaranteeing a more professional process.
The ability to use caster and personality fame and reputation to solicit money from doe-eyed fans is exactly the kind of incentive for self-publicity by those figures that I am lambasting in my rant in the spoiler above.
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On October 09 2013 09:03 bombsauce wrote:Show nested quote + + Show Spoiler + On October 09 2013 07:55 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 09 2013 05:34 bombsauce wrote:
I would just like to say I cannot imagine another sports industry, or any other broadcasting industry period except news outlets, in which the broadcasters/production crew/sponsors or whatever are more important for the crowd draw than the actual players (teams) or participants.... or possibly prize pool relative stuff.
I'll admit I definitely like some casters more than others and there are a couple that force me to mute the stream to keep from raging, but I have NEVER watched a match purely to listen to the commentary or to support a caster. I watch streams and tournaments to see players I like and to appreciate the competition.
I support e-sports because to me it feels like watching physical sports which I also really enjoy.
I don't want it to sound like the casters don't deserve the money they make. They do work hard and I appreciate the building of the scene they have contributed. But attitudes like this make me cringe.. The idea that you are more important to the scene than the players and organizations that make your career possible (Regardless of the "Business-Meta" or what your industry buddies pander) seems downright shameful. Honestly I don't disagree with the principle behind your idea. I've always said the players come first and we have to work on elevating them. Why do you think SHOUTcraft exists? It certainly wasn't to make a profit, I poured a lot of money into those events with no expectation of return. However your fallacy exists in the idea of the meritocracy, this notion that just because you think someone "deserves" more that they will get it. That's disconnected from reality. The only metric that matters is eyeballs, that's it. If you can bring in more eyeballs, you can demand more money. Starcraft for me is not a career, it's a hobby. I don't need Starcraft and I'd be a lot wealthier if I wasn't involved in it, the team, travel and time away from my usual earning in order to cover Starcraft events is all a financial drain. The relationship is synergistic. Yes without players there would be no professional casters, but without professional casters good luck getting anyone to pay the players. There is no scene without presentation and the people at the frontline of that are the casters. Do we not remember how many people Husky brought into SC2? The numbers on his videos are obscenely high. Even today his videos are getting more views than many tournament streams. He even pulls in 100,000 views with BRONZE LEAGUE PLAYERS, so the argument about pros being needed or he'd be out of a job is completely invalid. People like him, Day9, Tastosis and myself brought a lot of people into this scene, we were the entry point and when we produce content, we continue to keep people interested. Without casters, you would not maintain that level of interest. Do players deserve more than us? Yes, in an ideal world they do. SC2 is weird, most players do not get paid more than top-tier casters but that's all down to exposure. Why would you pay a player a big chunk of your sponsorship revenue if they can't provide return on that investment reliably? What use is a player that enters a tournament but bombs out before they even get on camera? Unfortunately, not a whole lot. Yep, there's no risk that a caster will big kicked off stage halfway through, but that's also their power when it comes to providing ROI for sponsors and keeping interest on eSports, we get FAR more attention over a longer period of time than any given player does and that's needed to keep this scene healthy. This is the reality of the business and to keep this scene going you need business-savvy people, not amateurs. When amateurs get involved, well... documentaries don't get finished. Here is my longwinded rant to the caster and eyeballs topic. (in spoiler because I don't want to keep the thread tangent to long) + Show Spoiler +Yes, I understand the business metric or eyeballs as you put it, I know the money is in advertising. Also again, maybe I came off a little heated before but I made another post in this vein, I do not want to diminish the effort and contribution of casters like yourself. Obviously you are critical to the scene as a whole and I can't deny without the efforts for things like SHOUTcraft and Husky.. (although I actually much preferred HDstarcraft..zerglove) we wouldn't have close to the SC2 community that we do. + Show Spoiler + although I would like to say that I have no pity for the guy that spends his free/hobby/love time around starcraft and still makes money for it albeit less than a regular job. This is every nerd's dream come true However, I want to point out a few things. There is a difference between match casting and content creation. Husky, SOTG, SHOUTcraft, Day9 Daily, and all that original content (read pseudo-journalism... and some real journalism!) absolutely deserve all the money they earn their creators and the fame and notoriety they bring. That is the perfect venue for self-plugging and self-aggrandizing. YOU created the content, YOU contributed to the community, YOU reap the benefit. But, when it comes to sanctioned (WCS) tournaments or other arenas of dedicated competition where the viewers are there to see the great StarCraft and some history, that is absolutely not the place for self publicizing. That is where the players get their chance to even start getting that exposure. How can up and coming players even get their foot in the door if the casters spend more time dropping their own twitter accounts (#attnwhr) than giving as much information as possible about the players? How about some personal player backstory with interview content? How about giving the players twitter account and stream link and some mentions of upcoming tournaments they will appear in? (this is really production's role not purely the caster, but at the juvenile stage of e-sports in general, everything needs to be collaboration) To me, the business issue here is that the teams and players get taken advantage of by production companies. The lack of a player's union and core league governing body is really the crux of most problems in this regard but I don't really want to get into a long business ethics discussion here. Really my original point is that regardless of the status quo, it does no good to come into these threads and espouse viewer numbers and self-importance to justify caster income because it really casts the entire ilk in a bad light of greed and holier-than-thou preening. /rant Also yes, clearly the problem here is the amateur handling of professional jobs which goes hand-in-hand with the ignorant donators (I would bet a fair amount of money came from mom or dad's debit account). I don't really have much of a horse in this race because while I'm happy to pay for content and watch advertisements, I consider "donations" can be much better spent than on a SC2 documentary. I am sure there is legitimate funding available in the proper avenues are pursued almost guaranteeing a more professional process. The ability to use caster and personality fame and reputation to solicit money from doe-eyed fans is exactly the kind of incentive for self-publicity by those figures that I am lambasting in my rant in the spoiler above.
Personally I view this as a bit of a strawman, because I don't actually see the level of caster self-promotion during casts that you see. Maybe it's because I just flatout don't do it (why the fuck would I want more Twitter followers? I have more than I could ever handle), but frankly player focus has been pretty good lately outside of the usual time-filler banter which happens between certain casting pairs. Production has also got better at giving player information with lots of overlays, lower-thirds and info slates. Frankly I agree, we should not be promoting ourselves to the degree you're describing. If we do a good job, we won't have to, but I don't think it's as big a problem as you're making it out to be.
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Personally I view this as a bit of a strawman, because I don't actually see the level of caster self-promotion during casts that you see. Maybe it's because I just flatout don't do it (why the fuck would I want more Twitter followers? I have more than I could ever handle), but frankly player focus has been pretty good lately outside of the usual time-filler banter which happens between certain casting pairs. Production has also got better at giving player information with lots of overlays, lower-thirds and info slates. Frankly I agree, we should not be promoting ourselves to the degree you're describing. If we do a good job, we won't have to, but I don't think it's as big a problem as you're making it out to be.
I would agree that it has improved a lot over the development of the scene.
Also, it is quite possible that I am projecting because I am used to watching other sports casts where the broadcasters say their name once at the very beginning and then don't mention their own names again until sign-off and certainly don't plug other personal content. All we see is occasionally their name will come up in an overlay after a few commercial breaks.
I could sound unreasonable.. but in serious venues I personally just want ZERO self-publicising, not just "as big of a problem" which makes it all relative anyway, I guess.
I just want the focus to shift away from the personalities and more towards the players because regardless of your points about short term name recognition ROI, I think truly keeping the scene healthy and growing relies on every young new gamer that sparks the dream to go pro.. and right now, there seems to be more glory in casting the matches.
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On October 09 2013 09:26 bombsauce wrote:Show nested quote +
Personally I view this as a bit of a strawman, because I don't actually see the level of caster self-promotion during casts that you see. Maybe it's because I just flatout don't do it (why the fuck would I want more Twitter followers? I have more than I could ever handle), but frankly player focus has been pretty good lately outside of the usual time-filler banter which happens between certain casting pairs. Production has also got better at giving player information with lots of overlays, lower-thirds and info slates. Frankly I agree, we should not be promoting ourselves to the degree you're describing. If we do a good job, we won't have to, but I don't think it's as big a problem as you're making it out to be.
I would agree that it has improved a lot over the development of the scene. Also, it is quite possible that I am projecting because I am used to watching other sports casts where the broadcasters say their name once at the very beginning and then don't mention their own names again until sign-off and certainly don't plug other personal content. All we see is occasionally their name will come up in an overlay after a few commercial breaks. I could sound unreasonable.. but in serious venues I personally just want ZERO self-publicising, not just "as big of a problem" which makes it all relative anyway, I guess. I just want the focus to shift away from the personalities and more towards the players because regardless of your points about short term name recognition ROI, I think truly keeping the scene healthy and growing relies on every young new gamer that sparks the dream to go pro.. and right now, there seems to be more glory in casting the matches.
I'm ok with zero self-publicizing at major tournaments frankly and I think it's something that should be implemented. The lower thirds with caster names and twitter handles are entirely sufficient.
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I'm ok with zero self-publicizing at major tournaments frankly and I think it's something that should be implemented. The lower thirds with caster names and twitter handles are entirely sufficient.
Well sir, it looks like we are at least in agreement about this...
P.S.
I have been watching your SC2 youtube content since the early days. Keep up the good work.
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On October 09 2013 09:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 09:03 bombsauce wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 09 2013 07:55 TotalBiscuit wrote:On October 09 2013 05:34 bombsauce wrote:
I would just like to say I cannot imagine another sports industry, or any other broadcasting industry period except news outlets, in which the broadcasters/production crew/sponsors or whatever are more important for the crowd draw than the actual players (teams) or participants.... or possibly prize pool relative stuff.
I'll admit I definitely like some casters more than others and there are a couple that force me to mute the stream to keep from raging, but I have NEVER watched a match purely to listen to the commentary or to support a caster. I watch streams and tournaments to see players I like and to appreciate the competition.
I support e-sports because to me it feels like watching physical sports which I also really enjoy.
I don't want it to sound like the casters don't deserve the money they make. They do work hard and I appreciate the building of the scene they have contributed. But attitudes like this make me cringe.. The idea that you are more important to the scene than the players and organizations that make your career possible (Regardless of the "Business-Meta" or what your industry buddies pander) seems downright shameful. Honestly I don't disagree with the principle behind your idea. I've always said the players come first and we have to work on elevating them. Why do you think SHOUTcraft exists? It certainly wasn't to make a profit, I poured a lot of money into those events with no expectation of return. However your fallacy exists in the idea of the meritocracy, this notion that just because you think someone "deserves" more that they will get it. That's disconnected from reality. The only metric that matters is eyeballs, that's it. If you can bring in more eyeballs, you can demand more money. Starcraft for me is not a career, it's a hobby. I don't need Starcraft and I'd be a lot wealthier if I wasn't involved in it, the team, travel and time away from my usual earning in order to cover Starcraft events is all a financial drain. The relationship is synergistic. Yes without players there would be no professional casters, but without professional casters good luck getting anyone to pay the players. There is no scene without presentation and the people at the frontline of that are the casters. Do we not remember how many people Husky brought into SC2? The numbers on his videos are obscenely high. Even today his videos are getting more views than many tournament streams. He even pulls in 100,000 views with BRONZE LEAGUE PLAYERS, so the argument about pros being needed or he'd be out of a job is completely invalid. People like him, Day9, Tastosis and myself brought a lot of people into this scene, we were the entry point and when we produce content, we continue to keep people interested. Without casters, you would not maintain that level of interest. Do players deserve more than us? Yes, in an ideal world they do. SC2 is weird, most players do not get paid more than top-tier casters but that's all down to exposure. Why would you pay a player a big chunk of your sponsorship revenue if they can't provide return on that investment reliably? What use is a player that enters a tournament but bombs out before they even get on camera? Unfortunately, not a whole lot. Yep, there's no risk that a caster will big kicked off stage halfway through, but that's also their power when it comes to providing ROI for sponsors and keeping interest on eSports, we get FAR more attention over a longer period of time than any given player does and that's needed to keep this scene healthy. This is the reality of the business and to keep this scene going you need business-savvy people, not amateurs. When amateurs get involved, well... documentaries don't get finished. Here is my longwinded rant to the caster and eyeballs topic. (in spoiler because I don't want to keep the thread tangent to long) + Show Spoiler +Yes, I understand the business metric or eyeballs as you put it, I know the money is in advertising. Also again, maybe I came off a little heated before but I made another post in this vein, I do not want to diminish the effort and contribution of casters like yourself. Obviously you are critical to the scene as a whole and I can't deny without the efforts for things like SHOUTcraft and Husky.. (although I actually much preferred HDstarcraft..zerglove) we wouldn't have close to the SC2 community that we do. + Show Spoiler + although I would like to say that I have no pity for the guy that spends his free/hobby/love time around starcraft and still makes money for it albeit less than a regular job. This is every nerd's dream come true However, I want to point out a few things. There is a difference between match casting and content creation. Husky, SOTG, SHOUTcraft, Day9 Daily, and all that original content (read pseudo-journalism... and some real journalism!) absolutely deserve all the money they earn their creators and the fame and notoriety they bring. That is the perfect venue for self-plugging and self-aggrandizing. YOU created the content, YOU contributed to the community, YOU reap the benefit. But, when it comes to sanctioned (WCS) tournaments or other arenas of dedicated competition where the viewers are there to see the great StarCraft and some history, that is absolutely not the place for self publicizing. That is where the players get their chance to even start getting that exposure. How can up and coming players even get their foot in the door if the casters spend more time dropping their own twitter accounts (#attnwhr) than giving as much information as possible about the players? How about some personal player backstory with interview content? How about giving the players twitter account and stream link and some mentions of upcoming tournaments they will appear in? (this is really production's role not purely the caster, but at the juvenile stage of e-sports in general, everything needs to be collaboration) To me, the business issue here is that the teams and players get taken advantage of by production companies. The lack of a player's union and core league governing body is really the crux of most problems in this regard but I don't really want to get into a long business ethics discussion here. Really my original point is that regardless of the status quo, it does no good to come into these threads and espouse viewer numbers and self-importance to justify caster income because it really casts the entire ilk in a bad light of greed and holier-than-thou preening. /rant Also yes, clearly the problem here is the amateur handling of professional jobs which goes hand-in-hand with the ignorant donators (I would bet a fair amount of money came from mom or dad's debit account). I don't really have much of a horse in this race because while I'm happy to pay for content and watch advertisements, I consider "donations" can be much better spent than on a SC2 documentary. I am sure there is legitimate funding available in the proper avenues are pursued almost guaranteeing a more professional process. The ability to use caster and personality fame and reputation to solicit money from doe-eyed fans is exactly the kind of incentive for self-publicity by those figures that I am lambasting in my rant in the spoiler above. Personally I view this as a bit of a strawman, because I don't actually see the level of caster self-promotion during casts that you see. Maybe it's because I just flatout don't do it (why the fuck would I want more Twitter followers? I have more than I could ever handle), but frankly player focus has been pretty good lately outside of the usual time-filler banter which happens between certain casting pairs. Production has also got better at giving player information with lots of overlays, lower-thirds and info slates. Frankly I agree, we should not be promoting ourselves to the degree you're describing. If we do a good job, we won't have to, but I don't think it's as big a problem as you're making it out to be.
I think bombsauce is recalling the days when things like the State of the Game, ect would be promoted on stream (picking on State of the Game because it's a group production, trying not to single out specific people).
Sometimes it made sense, like Tastetosis promoting GSL during MLG casts when they had their partnership? Totally expected since they were partner tournaments at the time. For completeness, they would promote MLG during GSL casts before a big event too.
I think it's gotten much, much better and is more restricted to twitter handles, maybe twitch / youtube streams now. Traditionally that stuff would belong in the caster biography pages on a tournament portal. But since that's not quite how the SC2 community approaches tournament viewership, I think a mention or so at the end of the cast is fine. Some casters mention their twitter handle everytime they introduce themselves though... that's kind of annoying and a little excessive.
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casters that plug their twitter after every game make me want to throw my lamp
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On October 09 2013 10:14 Alejandrisha wrote:
casters that plug their twitter after every game make me want to throw my lamp
I gotta ask, who actually does that? I can't name one off the top of my head.
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On October 09 2013 10:14 Alejandrisha wrote:
casters that plug their twitter after every game make me want to throw my lamp
Don't throw your lamp, floop the pig!
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On October 09 2013 11:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 10:14 Alejandrisha wrote:
casters that plug their twitter after every game make me want to throw my lamp I gotta ask, who actually does that? I can't name one off the top of my head.
The GSL casters. Wolf and Khaldor are notably worst about it than Tastosis.
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Pretty sure this thread was just recently locked for being off -topic guys lol.
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On September 05 2013 04:27 Grettin wrote:UPDATEShow nested quote +Hey guys,
I wanted to give an update on the status of the film. We are nearing the finish line and while I cannot give details at this time there will be a major announcement in the coming weeks regarding Sons of Starcraft.
This project has grown beyond what any of us had anticipated or dreamed of.
We have had unbridled access to and been gifted the chance to speak with the people who make e-Sports what it is today. I have personally had the opportunity to be in the field with my camera at a huge amount of events, tournaments, qualifiers, and in the best studios making content today. I have flown all over the world following Tasteless and Artosis through several years of their lives, recording hundreds of hours of footage and have had the opportunity not just to see them grow but to see e-Sports grow as well.
All of this is because of you.
Artists always like to think that they are doing something new, that they have broken untouched ground. I don’t know if anyone else has ever done something quite like this before but I can tell you there are things in this film no one has ever seen or will have access to after its completion.
I want to take this opportunity to thank the community for their support, trust, and most importantly their patience to allow our small band of nerds the time necessary to cover this story and the ability to make the film that e-sports deserves.
Jeff Alejos
Director/Producer
Sons of Starcraft
So over a month since this community placating, and under a month until Blizzcon, which according to Tumba is the release for this film. I would think the manufacturing process would have to begin sometime soon if they truly intend to release it there (unless they are going for an all-digital release), thus they should have some materials to show us that the film is indeed coming out.
And still nothing official from anyone. Pretty pathetic.
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I don't know whether that one tweet can be seen as an official announcement for the movie to air at blizzcon, to be honest, it read more like a rage tweet to be. How long is "coming weeks" anyways? We are already past week 5 and about to enter week 6, so it should come this month.
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On October 09 2013 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 10:01 coolcor wrote:So.. where on earth does the "casters make big money" meme come from, exactly? I can clear this up! I think this was one of the first times the community got the idea that casters make big money. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290205¤tpage=9#162Posted by incontrol responding to fxoboss Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters? There have been other hints but I'm not going to look them all up so I hope I'm not misremembering. Idra once said on a show that he did not like day9 because he pretends to be poor for donations from fans when he is in fact rich. Tasteless said in his real talk with jp that he was successful and living in one of the more expensive parts of the city for wealthy. TB once posted on teamliquid that he was making 2500 for one MLG weekend, but that it wasn't that much because he could make much more from videos he could be posting on youtube instead, Maybe Sundance talking about how tastosis won't be at MLG because they are asking to much. I think that's everything. Of note is that tasteless's EMG manager guy and husky have also appeared on a talk show to say that the casters are getting payed far to little compared to what they could be making in other industries, and should have their salaries raised. (And if the tournaments can't afford to pay them more with the viewercounts they get they are doing their business horribly wrong) And of course I agree that your examples of rotti and Kaelaris are probably getting payed a lot less then these guys are. Heh, I remember that Incontrol post. The hilarious thing about it is that the tournament in question didn't pay me at all. I even paid for my own travel and accommodation. I got VoD rights, that was it. The EMG management is right by the way. I was told the same thing by some of the game publishers I've worked with in the industry, that my original appearance fee was far too little. Some insisted on raising it because they "wouldn't feel right" paying me as little as SC2 events do. There is a reason why broadcast personalities are paid the way they are, because they can command an audience. I don't want this to seem like I'm bragging but compare Acer Teamstory Cup when I cast vs when other English commentators cast it. Look at the numbers. Millenium vs Mousesports last week, 10k concurrents, 13,940 unique live viewers, 10,470 unique VoD viewers. Even with the most popular teams, ATC is getting anywhere between 1/4th and half that with other casters. Popular casters have audiences that can bring value to the event, an absurd amount of value in some cases, that's why they get paid. After all, viewers aren't customers, they are the product, tournaments sell the viewers to the advertisers and that's how they afford to run the event. If a caster can bring in more viewers, he will be paid more for it, assuming he is savvy enough to ask for that. That's how the industry works and that's how ALL broadcast industries work. If you have the ability to bring in an audience of your own then that's one of the most valuable things you can possibly do. I've never been paid "what I'm worth (according to industry people)" by a Starcraft 2 event and I imagine very few ever have been.
Thank you for the informative response TB. Good luck convincing Sundance and the other TOs that you should be paid more. (Though aren't vod rights are a valuable form of payment from a tournament because they will make you a lot of money on youtube?) I wonder if their should be a big casters union to raise their bargaining position and payment from tournaments with their combined power.
I hope all the big casters don't stop casting games because they can make more money in Hollywood movies or something. But I also hope the tournaments are able to become profitable and sustainable so try not to bankrupt them by forcing them to pay what the NFL can to early 
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On October 13 2013 11:41 coolcor wrote:Thank you for the informative response TB. Good luck convincing Sundance and the other TOs that you should be paid more. (Though aren't vod rights are a valuable form of payment from a tournament because they will make you a lot of money on youtube?) I wonder if their should be a big casters union to raise their bargaining position and payment from tournaments with their combined power. I hope all the big casters don't stop casting games because they can make more money in Hollywood movies or something. But I also hope the tournaments are able to become profitable and sustainable so try not to bankrupt them by forcing them to pay what the NFL can to early
There was talk of a casters union a while ago but it never went anywhere. I think one of the main reasons was that the community can't be trusted not to tear casters apart for trying to get more money, since they have no grasp of what a personalities draw like that is actually worth.
As for me, getting more money isn't really a priority. If a gig isn't worthwhile, I just won't go, it's no harm to me. Some casters have to take what they can get though because it's their living not just some side project.
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This thread was closed a while ago because it had gone off tangent. Reopened with a warning that we should go back on tangent.
Well, we're off tangent again. Just saying.
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On October 14 2013 02:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 11:41 coolcor wrote:Thank you for the informative response TB. Good luck convincing Sundance and the other TOs that you should be paid more. (Though aren't vod rights are a valuable form of payment from a tournament because they will make you a lot of money on youtube?) I wonder if their should be a big casters union to raise their bargaining position and payment from tournaments with their combined power. I hope all the big casters don't stop casting games because they can make more money in Hollywood movies or something. But I also hope the tournaments are able to become profitable and sustainable so try not to bankrupt them by forcing them to pay what the NFL can to early There was talk of a casters union a while ago but it never went anywhere. I think one of the main reasons was that the community can't be trusted not to tear casters apart for trying to get more money, since they have no grasp of what a personalities draw like that is actually worth. As for me, getting more money isn't really a priority. If a gig isn't worthwhile, I just won't go, it's no harm to me. Some casters have to take what they can get though because it's their living not just some side project.
What do you suppose your contribution to a big tournament is, relative to a small one? I can't imagine something like a caster union designed to squeeze more money out of these little tourneys. Sure you will increase the viewership of a small tourney by maybe even multiples of hundreds, but what do you do for MLG, or Dreamhack, or whatever? Even if you brought the same number, which I doubt to begin with unless you're marketed heavily, since you won't be going live on your own twitch account (presumably) and less of your own fans will know about it, it's still nothing like the impact you or another big name caster brings to a small show.
Especially the non-analytical casters which there seems to be less demand for simply because there are a lot more of them. We've definitely seen a move away from marquee names like Tasteless over the past year or so. Is it tournaments cutting back on expenses or are these guys pricing themselves out thinking they are worth way more than they actually are to already established tournaments?
Surely as tournaments grow in popularity your relative worth becomes less. There's still obvious a baseline requirement in caster ability, but they don't necessarily need the most popular figures like day9, tasteless, etc.
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On October 14 2013 02:56 e4e5nf3 wrote:
This thread was closed a while ago because it had gone off tangent. Reopened with a warning that we should go back on tangent.
Well, we're off tangent again. Just saying.
Well Tastosis are pretty much a part of the organization of this documentary so discussing their competency in this thread is not that off tangent, its even relevant.
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In an attempt to bring this thread back on topic:
I really want to see this documentary! I'm so interested in the lives of those who lived on the fringes of E-Esports in Korea in the BW years. If this documentary never gets released, would love to see some other candid interviews with Artosis/Nony/Tasteless/Idra about their lives there during that period. You can piece together a lot of information that has been said in interviews before, but it would be really interesting to see a whole documentary charting their times since arriving in Korea til now.
Anyways - that's why I think it's a shame that this hasn't been released yet 
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EPT
