On September 13 2012 10:54 Freezd wrote: My fellow esports brothers, email Ministry of Win's sponsors! The biggest one is Razer. This shall not be supported by such a great company!!!
MOre sponsors, Twitch tv, D-Link, DXRAcer,gamecodes.pl , and more.
On September 13 2012 10:43 Radin wrote: 1. MoW should have provided the contract before Fuzer moved in. They should NOT have objected (or, rather, requested "verification") when he asked that his legal counsel look over the contract before he signed. This is a very shady practice.
2. MoW should have refunded the money he was owed for his second month immediately. They waited until he said he was going public on his Facebook because they knew this would happen. This is a very shady practice.
3. The NDA is a scare tactic. This is a very shady practice.
Final: Any persons who want to be viewed as a legitimate business deserve to be judged like one. I'm sorry that many of you MoW fanboys are upset by this, but the fact is, the owner brought this upon himself by not following unassailable business practices.
MoW fanboys ? No I just belive more 20 players that are saying good things aboth MoW , then just one person who is know troll and BM on stream.
Do you say that MoW is acting correctly in this situaiton? Wanting to go into war with Fuzer? Is that good behaviour from an organisation? I dont think we can take them seriously anymore.
Hmm, I wonder who we should actually take seriously... The two serious gamers who actually lived at MoW who present their views in detail and with a calm and polite tone, or a mob of randoms who rage their hearts out though they don't have anything but hearsay from one single person (the evictee, at that) to go on - spearheaded by some finnish dude (like Fuzer, incidentally) who spent more than half of his 46 posts attacking MoW in this thread?
On September 13 2012 10:43 Radin wrote: 1. MoW should have provided the contract before Fuzer moved in. They should NOT have objected (or, rather, requested "verification") when he asked that his legal counsel look over the contract before he signed. This is a very shady practice.
2. MoW should have refunded the money he was owed for his second month immediately. They waited until he said he was going public on his Facebook because they knew this would happen. This is a very shady practice.
3. The NDA is a scare tactic. This is a very shady practice.
Final: Any persons who want to be viewed as a legitimate business deserve to be judged like one. I'm sorry that many of you MoW fanboys are upset by this, but the fact is, the owner brought this upon himself by not following unassailable business practices.
MoW fanboys ? No I just belive more 20 players that are saying good things aboth MoW , then just one person who is know troll and BM on stream.
Do you say that MoW is acting correctly in this situaiton? Wanting to go into war with Fuzer? Is that good behaviour from an organisation? I dont think we can take them seriously anymore.
Its word vs word.. for now. If more players gonna say situations like this happend there then i belive. For now its MoW staff + around 20 players vs Fuzer..
Stop trolling and talk about facts.
They didn't let him give the contract to his lawyer. They didn't give him a contract translated for him. They didn't give the contract until he was there. There were things he was never told about in the contract.
These have been confirmed.
Who confirmed this ? Fuzer ? If they trick him.. take his money.. ,why they dont trick this way other players ?
On September 13 2012 08:42 nakedsurfer wrote: [quote]
Welmu dropping them facts like a boss!! ♥
so they are right that it isn't 4 hours a day
idk i just feel like it takes two to make a mess
I applaud Welmu's ability to do math. Though if the agreement was for 5 hours a day minimum it would say that. However you have the obligation to stream for 150 hours a month. I don't imagine its much of a stretch to think of the players playing the game for 8 hours a day. So if you turn the stream on during that time, you finish with over 11 days in the month, to do whatever. They partnered with twitch, so even previously non featured streamers would become featured. Which would enable them to profit off of commercials, while giving a % to MoW.
Lol, just stop with the ridiculous 8hours a day streaming thing. Thats funny
Did you even read what he wrote?
Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water.
5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much.
You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all! And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that. And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get.
Lol, the whole point is to get better.
1.) People do not get better when they stream their practice. Numerous pro players have said that streaming their practice games hinders their play and does not help them in any way.
2.) 8 hours straight 3 or 4 days in a row? Do you realize how tiring that is? You can stream that maybe one or two times a week, but doing that every week? Even the highest amount of streamers have to take breaks and can't do that. TLO had 142.5 hours, a ridiculous amount and had to take long breaks during his streaming.
3.) If they really want money from their streaming, fine whatever. Why not just include that cost in the contract and allow them to take whatever money they make from streaming? It's not really fair to tell them after the fact that they have to stream 5 hours a day (at least) and then tell them they don't even get to keep all of the money. If you're not even getting adequate amounts of food, why should you be giving them ADDITIONAL money to WORK?
You clearly have no idea what you are writing about. 1.) Yes, I can agree with you about this point, it's probably not good to stream your practice, strategies etc. for the competitive reasons, however, that pretty much applies for the real top pros, inventing new strategies etc.
2.) It's not tiring at all... Streaming doesn't equal having a webcam and microphone on and talking 24/7 while playing. All you have to do is having x-split on in the background while you play, if you don't feel like it you don't have to talk, you don't even need to check the chat. Also, they know about it before coming, they aren't getting told after the fact that they don't keep all the money. Please, don't even mention the food because it's just silly point. Fuzer saying they get only 1hot meal a day is just hard to consider serious. Yes, believe it or not, but in Poland we have breakfast, which is usually sandwiches/fruits/cereals, dinner which is the biggest meal of the day and is hot, and then supper which is usually sandwiches again (altough of course you can have some hot stuff like sausages, eggs and what not).
3.) Please, realise that if not for MoW, Fuzer would get literally ZERO money whatsoever from streaming! Check the requirements Twitch.tv actually has before they can give you partnership and share the ad revenue with you. The truth is Fuzer would pretty much never get it and he should be glad that MoW with their partnership actually gives him the opportunity to get some money from it.
LOL Ok so you agree with #1, your argument for #2 is that it's "not tiring at all," yet you keep ignoring my point. You can't take a break if you're streaming without losing revenue (no one to run ads), you can't really take a break to go get a meal, and you can't really go to the bathroom without losing revenue. That is indeed tiring. You also can't really just go workout (something ideal to playing and practicing well) if you're streaming.
#3, I already acknowledged this, but if he's going to be making money from the streaming, why the fuck would they not just include it in his contract to begin with (maybe 50 euros more) and then just tell him keep the money from streaming. Instead, they're making him stream a shit ton and he basically gets no money from it. Wtf. That's just screwed up and not fair to Fuzer.
Also, your whole claim that in Poland you have breakfast is absolute bs. In America, it's common not to eat breakfast for many people. Does that mean everyone doesn't eat breakfast? Karmy already said that the meals was an issue at MoW, so why are you arguing that they weren't? Your entire post just shows how you are blindly defending MoW for stuff that is absolutely unacceptable by today's standards.
Haha, okay... I'm actually about to go sleep, and I'm gonna focus only on the food thing, which is completely ridiculous. Yes, I'm almost never eating breakfast myself, and what the hell does it have to do with anything? They get meals 3times a day, and the main problem of Fuzer was that they got 1hot meal a day, which is completely standard here. It's not that they weren't getting enough food, because they had bread and stuff like this available for them at all times (that's what Fuzer said himself). Basicly what he does is saying "in Finland we eat X hot meals a day, give me X hot meals a day", which as a guy who travelled quite a bit, I can tell you is just ignorant, because eating habits vary a lot around different countries. Of course, if you go to Korea the food is going to be even more different, and you will have to deal with it.
And as I mentioned in a few posts before, I am not blindly defending MoW. In fact, I think MoW messed up pretty badly here, but at the same time the opinion they get here and the view of Fuzer being a victim here is a bit disgusting. He messed up no less than MoW did and now is trying to make a big drama out of it.
On September 13 2012 10:26 Gardel wrote: I sent an email to the sponsors, "boss" being and old known scammer just doesn´t seem to fit right to everything. Gl MoW
You are literally killing eSports, gj stupid troll.
Rofl, this shady stuff MoW is pulling off is killing eSports.
Killing esports is gathering players in one place and allowing them to focus on practice + promoting them? Fuzer and his retarded defenders emailing sponsors without real knowledge what actually happened is killing esports...
I think you've just insulted an entire group of people(including me) unprovoked.
Can you give me the knowledge on why they didn't allow him to contact his lawyer and why they wanted proof of him being a real lawyer and why they didn't provide him with a Finnish translation of the contract with such a short deadline? Just can't have us having no knowledge, see.
Firstly, they didn't forbid him to contact his lawyer. Secondly, maybe MoW didn't want to release the contract details to a third party, so they wanted the confirmation that he's really Fuzer's lawyer. Short deadline... what is short deadline? MoW was fed up with Fuzer and his behaviour so they acted accordingly.
I edited that post of mine while you were posing. Here is the rest: Seriously though... Go and start your own practice house and wi'll see how you're doing in terms of legal matters and PR in a few months.
Fuzer is a douche, MoW are unexperienced. That's all. Give this project a breather guys... It's really good for SC2, players and esports to support those kind of endevours.
Lastly you guys jump to conclusions too quickly... I'll say it once more: MoW is good for esports for what they do for the scene and the players, no matter if they are unexperienced or whatever and it's beneficial for us all to support this project and try to be gentle with situations like this.
On September 13 2012 10:46 IPA wrote: Welcome to business 101 bud. It's you who is perhaps naive.
Uhm no, I do know someone who worked for a company i don't want to mention, quit and got a job at Olympus, i don't need to mention that he quit his work in Olympus after 2 months and went back to his old company in a higher position as before. Information aquired.
Even if you don't have insider information, think about it this way. Would any Game designer sign a contract that said he isn't allowed to join another Company for 10 years? If the inital Game he is working on flops he is most likely fired and "can't join another company" This is unheard of in any big industry. Heck even in esports (korean kespa sc1, and german cs 1.6 for all i know) people change from one gaming house to another.
I hate to break the dramafest, but there were some amazing games on IPTL. So instead of wasting your time on hating, I really recommend wasting it on watching the awesome match between LG-IM and ST. =D
On September 13 2012 10:59 XLR8 BP wrote: I hate to break the dramafest, but there were some amazing games on IPTL. So instead of wasting your time on hating, I really recommend wasting it on watching the awesome match between LG-IM and ST. =D
On September 13 2012 10:46 IPA wrote: Welcome to business 101 bud. It's you who is perhaps naive.
Uhm no, I do know someone who worked for a company i don't want to mention, quit and got a job at Olympus, i don't need to mention that he quit his work in Olympus after 2 months and went back to his old company in a higher position as before. Information aquired.
Even if you don't have insider information, think about it this way. Would any Game designer sign a contract that said he isn't allowed to join another Company for 10 years? If the inital Game he is working on flops he is most likely fired and "can't join another company" This is unheard of in any big industry. Heck even in esports (korean kespa sc1, and german cs 1.6 for all i know) people change from one gaming house to another.
You can't reduce human rights.
Although 10 years is excessive, non compete clauses are quite common...
On September 13 2012 10:26 Gardel wrote: I sent an email to the sponsors, "boss" being and old known scammer just doesn´t seem to fit right to everything. Gl MoW
You are literally killing eSports, gj stupid troll.
Rofl, this shady stuff MoW is pulling off is killing eSports.
Killing esports is gathering players in one place and allowing them to focus on practice + promoting them? Fuzer and his retarded defenders emailing sponsors without real knowledge what actually happened is killing esports...
I think you've just insulted an entire group of people(including me) unprovoked.
Can you give me the knowledge on why they didn't allow him to contact his lawyer and why they wanted proof of him being a real lawyer and why they didn't provide him with a Finnish translation of the contract with such a short deadline? Just can't have us having no knowledge, see.
Firstly, they didn't forbid him to contact his lawyer. Secondly, maybe MoW didn't want to release the contract details to a third party, so they wanted the confirmation that he's really Fuzer's lawyer. Short deadline... what is short deadline? MoW was fed up with Fuzer and his behaviour so they acted accordingly.
I edited that post of mine while you were posing. Here is the rest: Seriously though... Go and start your own practice house and wi'll see how you're doing in terms of legal matters and PR in a few months.
Fuzer is a douche, MoW are unexperienced. That's all. Give this project a breather guys... It's really good for SC2, players and esports to support those kind of endevours.
Lastly you guys jump to conclusions too quickly... I'll say it once more: MoW is good for esports for what they do for the scene and the players, no matter if they are unexperienced or whatever and it's beneficial for us all to support this project and try to be gentle with situations like this.
On September 13 2012 10:13 Shikyo wrote: Many people missing the point....
The main issue is them not letting him consult his lawyer about the contract(and not paying back immediately). Everything else, like the things with the house, are secondary.
They did let him, But he didn't get the proper verification from his lawyer.
Since you seem to be an expert at ignoring me, I'll try again. Verifying a lawyer (or any kind of legal counsel) is in no way shape or form standard practice. Actually it might be flat out illegal (depending on Fuzers age and his English skills, considering that he SAID that he doesn't feel comfortable signing an english contact before talking to his lawyer you CANNOT sign a binding contract with him until he has that advice or YOU get the contract translated into his mother tongue).
If you have doubts about the validity of someones credentials (VERY uncommon, usually a stalling tactic) you look him up in the register, instead of asking him to provide some kind of documentation (which could easily be faked, would you know how a finnish certificate is supposed to look like?).
To sum it up, their behaviour was unprofessional at best (and fairly idiotic, you don't just let someone move in without clearing up those details). Their behaviour after this mess started was flat out illegal at best (the skype log).
Yeah they can be fed up with him but that's not how you deal with that.
A common trend generating through this thread is rather disturbing you either are 100% sure they did it and they're evil or you're 100% sure this is all bullshit and Fuzer needs to get his shit together.
What happened to being honestly ignorant? No one has all the solid facts why make your position so strong when it's 1 day in and everything isn't presented yet? Such immature posters.
On September 13 2012 10:46 IPA wrote: Welcome to business 101 bud. It's you who is perhaps naive.
Uhm no, I do know someone who worked for a company i don't want to mention, quit and got a job at Olympus, i don't need to mention that he quit his work in Olympus after 2 months and went back to his old company in a higher position as before. Information aquired.
Even if you don't have insider information, think about it this way. Would any Game designer sign a contract that said he isn't allowed to join another Company for 10 years? If the inital Game he is working on flops he is most likely fired and "can't join another company" This is unheard of in any big industry. Heck even in esports (korean kespa sc1, and german cs 1.6 for all i know) people change from one gaming house to another.
You can't reduce human rights.
Although 10 years is excessive, non compete clauses are quite common...
On September 13 2012 10:03 Gendo wrote: That initiative looked full of shit since the beginning but now even worst, 10 years really? should dismantle that and give money back to everyone.
Do you even know why the 10 year NDA is in effect? It's so we don't go to a competator and give out company secrets. They're the first of this kind of gaming house model, If others want to copy it they don't need someone that use to live in MoW becoming a manager and taking all their secrets to be a tough competitor. This is why I'm here, I've read the NDA that you didn't, I know what the contract stated, and why the 10 year NDA was in effect. It was needed and we all understood what it was for, All the players understood when I lived there.
10 years, rofl, 10 years, an entire decade, a WHOLE DECADE, you fucks must be naive.
10-year NDAs are fine (whatever that means).
The problem here is none of you know what an NDA is. It's a Non-Disclosure Agreement.
You guys are thinking of a Non-Competition Agreement (preclusion from working for a competitor). These last nowhere near 10 years (typically one to two years) and are only for industries with huge secrets (eg. technology companies). A Non-Competition Agreement doesn't make much sense for gaming houses - what secrets are you going to steal?
What Fuzer described was a 10-year non-compete agreement
And another thing that the contract said is that after you've been your time in the house, you're not allowed to establish your own house / be part of gaming house as a coach etc. for next 10 years. (We asked about this from the boss and he said that they don't want us to take "ideas" from this house to some of their competitors) But I think the way they had worded the contract it would allow them to deny us from even joining other gaming houses as a player for next 10 years.
That is not a NDA, but a non-compete agreement. Of course there are limits to what kind of non-compete agreements you can have someone agree to. I am not a lawyer and certainly not familiar with Polish law, but based on my experience with non-compete clauses in other contexts I cannot imagine such a clause would be legally valid.
Personally I'm completely baffled at what secrets MoW and members like Karmy think people would like to steal and use to establish other houses. I can't imagine anything extremely complicated being implemented in MoW that other team houses won't think of.
On September 13 2012 10:54 Freezd wrote: My fellow esports brothers, email Ministry of Win's sponsors! The biggest one is Razer. This shall not be supported by such a great company!!!
I'll take the high road and be a normal, rational human being.
On September 13 2012 10:43 Radin wrote: 1. MoW should have provided the contract before Fuzer moved in. They should NOT have objected (or, rather, requested "verification") when he asked that his legal counsel look over the contract before he signed. This is a very shady practice.
2. MoW should have refunded the money he was owed for his second month immediately. They waited until he said he was going public on his Facebook because they knew this would happen. This is a very shady practice.
3. The NDA is a scare tactic. This is a very shady practice.
Final: Any persons who want to be viewed as a legitimate business deserve to be judged like one. I'm sorry that many of you MoW fanboys are upset by this, but the fact is, the owner brought this upon himself by not following unassailable business practices.
MoW fanboys ? No I just belive more 20 players that are saying good things aboth MoW , then just one person who is know troll and BM on stream.
Do you say that MoW is acting correctly in this situaiton? Wanting to go into war with Fuzer? Is that good behaviour from an organisation? I dont think we can take them seriously anymore.
Its word vs word.. for now. If more players gonna say situations like this happend there then i belive. For now its MoW staff + around 20 players vs Fuzer..
Stop trolling and talk about facts.
They didn't let him give the contract to his lawyer. They didn't give him a contract translated for him. They didn't give the contract until he was there. There were things he was never told about in the contract.
These have been confirmed.
Who confirmed this ? Fuzer ? If they trick him.. take his money.. ,why they dont trick this way other players ?
MoW said that they didnt give the contract till he got there, other former members of MoW have stated that there were things in the contract that they hadn't been told about until they got it (ask LGNKARMY) The contract was in english.... (the 1st one isn't so bad because they asked for him to get the lawyers credentials but he never got them according to MoW)
On September 13 2012 10:43 Radin wrote: 1. MoW should have provided the contract before Fuzer moved in. They should NOT have objected (or, rather, requested "verification") when he asked that his legal counsel look over the contract before he signed. This is a very shady practice.
2. MoW should have refunded the money he was owed for his second month immediately. They waited until he said he was going public on his Facebook because they knew this would happen. This is a very shady practice.
3. The NDA is a scare tactic. This is a very shady practice.
Final: Any persons who want to be viewed as a legitimate business deserve to be judged like one. I'm sorry that many of you MoW fanboys are upset by this, but the fact is, the owner brought this upon himself by not following unassailable business practices.
MoW fanboys ? No I just belive more 20 players that are saying good things aboth MoW , then just one person who is know troll and BM on stream.
Do you say that MoW is acting correctly in this situaiton? Wanting to go into war with Fuzer? Is that good behaviour from an organisation? I dont think we can take them seriously anymore.
Its word vs word.. for now. If more players gonna say situations like this happend there then i belive. For now its MoW staff + around 20 players vs Fuzer..
Stop trolling and talk about facts.
They didn't let him give the contract to his lawyer. They didn't give him a contract translated for him. They didn't give the contract until he was there. There were things he was never told about in the contract.
These have been confirmed.
Who confirmed this ? Fuzer ? If they trick him.. take his money.. ,why they dont trick this way other players ?
On September 13 2012 09:07 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: [quote]
Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water.
5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much.
You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all! And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that. And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get.
Lol, the whole point is to get better.
1.) People do not get better when they stream their practice. Numerous pro players have said that streaming their practice games hinders their play and does not help them in any way.
2.) 8 hours straight 3 or 4 days in a row? Do you realize how tiring that is? You can stream that maybe one or two times a week, but doing that every week? Even the highest amount of streamers have to take breaks and can't do that. TLO had 142.5 hours, a ridiculous amount and had to take long breaks during his streaming.
3.) If they really want money from their streaming, fine whatever. Why not just include that cost in the contract and allow them to take whatever money they make from streaming? It's not really fair to tell them after the fact that they have to stream 5 hours a day (at least) and then tell them they don't even get to keep all of the money. If you're not even getting adequate amounts of food, why should you be giving them ADDITIONAL money to WORK?
You clearly have no idea what you are writing about. 1.) Yes, I can agree with you about this point, it's probably not good to stream your practice, strategies etc. for the competitive reasons, however, that pretty much applies for the real top pros, inventing new strategies etc.
2.) It's not tiring at all... Streaming doesn't equal having a webcam and microphone on and talking 24/7 while playing. All you have to do is having x-split on in the background while you play, if you don't feel like it you don't have to talk, you don't even need to check the chat. Also, they know about it before coming, they aren't getting told after the fact that they don't keep all the money. Please, don't even mention the food because it's just silly point. Fuzer saying they get only 1hot meal a day is just hard to consider serious. Yes, believe it or not, but in Poland we have breakfast, which is usually sandwiches/fruits/cereals, dinner which is the biggest meal of the day and is hot, and then supper which is usually sandwiches again (altough of course you can have some hot stuff like sausages, eggs and what not).
3.) Please, realise that if not for MoW, Fuzer would get literally ZERO money whatsoever from streaming! Check the requirements Twitch.tv actually has before they can give you partnership and share the ad revenue with you. The truth is Fuzer would pretty much never get it and he should be glad that MoW with their partnership actually gives him the opportunity to get some money from it.
LOL Ok so you agree with #1, your argument for #2 is that it's "not tiring at all," yet you keep ignoring my point. You can't take a break if you're streaming without losing revenue (no one to run ads), you can't really take a break to go get a meal, and you can't really go to the bathroom without losing revenue. That is indeed tiring. You also can't really just go workout (something ideal to playing and practicing well) if you're streaming.
#3, I already acknowledged this, but if he's going to be making money from the streaming, why the fuck would they not just include it in his contract to begin with (maybe 50 euros more) and then just tell him keep the money from streaming. Instead, they're making him stream a shit ton and he basically gets no money from it. Wtf. That's just screwed up and not fair to Fuzer.
Also, your whole claim that in Poland you have breakfast is absolute bs. In America, it's common not to eat breakfast for many people. Does that mean everyone doesn't eat breakfast? Karmy already said that the meals was an issue at MoW, so why are you arguing that they weren't? Your entire post just shows how you are blindly defending MoW for stuff that is absolutely unacceptable by today's standards.
I don't understand your second point. Then you just lose revenue if you don't run the ads. Whatever. How is that an issue, compared to if you weren't making any revenue regardless if you weren't streaming in the first place? Go to the fucking bathroom and take a "revenue hit" that you suspect would happen.... who cares....
Streaming itself is not an issue. But why would stream be mandatory for people who pays to get better, when streaming have not shown to actually help people getting better? It people want stream, then they can stream, if people practice better not streaming, it should be their choice since they paid to stay there to get better.
Because it's part of the damn contract?
Honestly...
Exactly, that's WHY he is asking his lawyer to check out the contract.
And Fuzer claim they didn't tell him BEFORE he got there, which MoW or anyone else have not refuted.
This is true, When I arrived to MoW there were a few things that I didn't know were happening, I take responsibility not getting my contract before moving but at the same time, There were a few things that popped up when we got there that weren't agreed apon before moving. They were changed in the contract when we discussed it, but at the time it wasn't known before I moved in.
On September 13 2012 10:03 Gendo wrote: That initiative looked full of shit since the beginning but now even worst, 10 years really? should dismantle that and give money back to everyone.
Do you even know why the 10 year NDA is in effect? It's so we don't go to a competator and give out company secrets. They're the first of this kind of gaming house model, If others want to copy it they don't need someone that use to live in MoW becoming a manager and taking all their secrets to be a tough competitor. This is why I'm here, I've read the NDA that you didn't, I know what the contract stated, and why the 10 year NDA was in effect. It was needed and we all understood what it was for, All the players understood when I lived there.
10 years, rofl, 10 years, an entire decade, a WHOLE DECADE, you fucks must be naive.
Welcome to business 101 bud. It's you who is perhaps naive.
Welcome to business 101? of all people you shouldn't be telling me business 101, I sincerely doubt you run one.
On September 13 2012 10:43 Radin wrote: 1. MoW should have provided the contract before Fuzer moved in. They should NOT have objected (or, rather, requested "verification") when he asked that his legal counsel look over the contract before he signed. This is a very shady practice.
2. MoW should have refunded the money he was owed for his second month immediately. They waited until he said he was going public on his Facebook because they knew this would happen. This is a very shady practice.
3. The NDA is a scare tactic. This is a very shady practice.
Final: Any persons who want to be viewed as a legitimate business deserve to be judged like one. I'm sorry that many of you MoW fanboys are upset by this, but the fact is, the owner brought this upon himself by not following unassailable business practices.
MoW fanboys ? No I just belive more 20 players that are saying good things aboth MoW , then just one person who is know troll and BM on stream.
Do you say that MoW is acting correctly in this situaiton? Wanting to go into war with Fuzer? Is that good behaviour from an organisation? I dont think we can take them seriously anymore.
Its word vs word.. for now. If more players gonna say situations like this happend there then i belive. For now its MoW staff + around 20 players vs Fuzer..
Stop trolling and talk about facts.
They didn't let him give the contract to his lawyer. They didn't give him a contract translated for him. They didn't give the contract until he was there. There were things he was never told about in the contract.
These have been confirmed.
Who confirmed this ? Fuzer ? If they trick him.. take his money.. ,why they dont trick this way other players ?
Another player on adding things before they got there:
On September 13 2012 10:25 LgNkarmy wrote:
This is true, When I arrived to MoW there were a few things that I didn't know were happening, I take responsibility not getting my contract before moving but at the same time, There were a few things that popped up when we got there that weren't agreed apon before moving. They were changed in the contract when we discussed it, but at the time it wasn't known before I moved in.
“We spoke a few weeks ago and it was my first attempt when I tried to sign a contract with him. We found some mistakes in it and he wanted us to change them - so we did it. After showing him the correct contract he still had a lot of objections...he wanted to consult it with his lawyer, and we agreed to that. We just wanted to see [the lawyer’s] license - we requested that to be sent on our e-mail. Nothing ever appeared, so we wanted [Fuzer] to sign the contract, and he declined.”
On September 13 2012 10:26 Gardel wrote: I sent an email to the sponsors, "boss" being and old known scammer just doesn´t seem to fit right to everything. Gl MoW
You are literally killing eSports, gj stupid troll.
Rofl, this shady stuff MoW is pulling off is killing eSports.
Killing esports is gathering players in one place and allowing them to focus on practice + promoting them? Fuzer and his retarded defenders emailing sponsors without real knowledge what actually happened is killing esports...
I think you've just insulted an entire group of people(including me) unprovoked.
Can you give me the knowledge on why they didn't allow him to contact his lawyer and why they wanted proof of him being a real lawyer and why they didn't provide him with a Finnish translation of the contract with such a short deadline? Just can't have us having no knowledge, see.
Firstly, they didn't forbid him to contact his lawyer. Secondly, maybe MoW didn't want to release the contract details to a third party, so they wanted the confirmation that he's really Fuzer's lawyer. Short deadline... what is short deadline? MoW was fed up with Fuzer and his behaviour so they acted accordingly.
I edited that post of mine while you were posing. Here is the rest: Seriously though... Go and start your own practice house and wi'll see how you're doing in terms of legal matters and PR in a few months.
Fuzer is a douche, MoW are unexperienced. That's all. Give this project a breather guys... It's really good for SC2, players and esports to support those kind of endevours.
Lastly you guys jump to conclusions too quickly... I'll say it once more: MoW is good for esports for what they do for the scene and the players, no matter if they are unexperienced or whatever and it's beneficial for us all to support this project and try to be gentle with situations like this.
On September 13 2012 10:13 Shikyo wrote: Many people missing the point....
The main issue is them not letting him consult his lawyer about the contract(and not paying back immediately). Everything else, like the things with the house, are secondary.
They did let him, But he didn't get the proper verification from his lawyer.
Since you seem to be an expert at ignoring me, I'll try again. Verifying a lawyer (or any kind of legal counsel) is in no way shape or form standard practice. Actually it might be flat out illegal (depending on Fuzers age and his English skills, considering that he SAID that he doesn't feel comfortable signing an english contact before talking to his lawyer you CANNOT sign a binding contract with him until he has that advice or YOU get the contract translated into his mother tongue).
If you have doubts about the validity of someones credentials (VERY uncommon, usually a stalling tactic) you look him up in the register, instead of asking him to provide some kind of documentation (which could easily be faked, would you know how a finnish certificate is supposed to look like?).
To sum it up, their behaviour was unprofessional at best (and fairly idiotic, you don't just let someone move in without clearing up those details). Their behaviour after this mess started was flat out illegal at best (the skype log).
Yeah they can be fed up with him but that's not how you deal with that.
And to add, what people need to understand is that Ministry of win didn't try to scam or trick anyone, they just don't understand the conduct of proper business. They are doing allot of weird shit that makes no sense.
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