On September 13 2012 10:43 Radin wrote: 1. MoW should have provided the contract before Fuzer moved in. They should NOT have objected (or, rather, requested "verification") when he asked that his legal counsel look over the contract before he signed. This is a very shady practice.
2. MoW should have refunded the money he was owed for his second month immediately. They waited until he said he was going public on his Facebook because they knew this would happen. This is a very shady practice.
3. The NDA is a scare tactic. This is a very shady practice.
Final: Any persons who want to be viewed as a legitimate business deserve to be judged like one. I'm sorry that many of you MoW fanboys are upset by this, but the fact is, the owner brought this upon himself by not following unassailable business practices.
MoW fanboys ? No I just belive more 20 players that are saying good things aboth MoW , then just one person who is know troll and BM on stream.
They didn't let him give the contract to his lawyer. They didn't give him a contract translated for him. They didn't give the contract until he was there. There were things he was never told about in the contract.
On September 13 2012 10:03 Gendo wrote: That initiative looked full of shit since the beginning but now even worst, 10 years really? should dismantle that and give money back to everyone.
Do you even know why the 10 year NDA is in effect? It's so we don't go to a competator and give out company secrets. They're the first of this kind of gaming house model, If others want to copy it they don't need someone that use to live in MoW becoming a manager and taking all their secrets to be a tough competitor. This is why I'm here, I've read the NDA that you didn't, I know what the contract stated, and why the 10 year NDA was in effect. It was needed and we all understood what it was for, All the players understood when I lived there.
10 years, rofl, 10 years, an entire decade, a WHOLE DECADE, you fucks must be naive.
10-year NDAs are fine (whatever that means).
The problem here is none of you know what an NDA is. It's a Non-Disclosure Agreement.
You guys are thinking of a Non-Competition Agreement (preclusion from working for a competitor). These last nowhere near 10 years (typically one to two years) and are only for industries with huge secrets (eg. technology companies). A Non-Competition Agreement doesn't make much sense for gaming houses - what secrets are you going to steal?
On September 13 2012 10:26 Gardel wrote: I sent an email to the sponsors, "boss" being and old known scammer just doesn´t seem to fit right to everything. Gl MoW
....serious?
What has been outlined here has made you believe that sponsors should not sponsor MoW with people like ret on it?
Think more before acting, and i strongly encourage everyone not to email the sponsors.
I hope that liquid pulls Ret out of there and quick. Liquid should be the good guys, not being involved in shady stuff like this. Do you actually think that MoW treated Fuzer correctly?
Let me put it this way- do you think that all organizations must be infallible to be in eSports and MoW made a fatal mistake by having a comtract/rent disagreement with one player even if they are successful with their other players?
You're being too absolutist. Something along the the lines of "If you do one thing not with me, then you're against me."
On September 13 2012 10:43 Radin wrote: 1. MoW should have provided the contract before Fuzer moved in. They should NOT have objected (or, rather, requested "verification") when he asked that his legal counsel look over the contract before he signed. This is a very shady practice.
2. MoW should have refunded the money he was owed for his second month immediately. They waited until he said he was going public on his Facebook because they knew this would happen. This is a very shady practice.
3. The NDA is a scare tactic. This is a very shady practice.
Final: Any persons who want to be viewed as a legitimate business deserve to be judged like one. I'm sorry that many of you MoW fanboys are upset by this, but the fact is, the owner brought this upon himself by not following unassailable business practices.
MoW fanboys ? No I just belive more 20 players that are saying good things aboth MoW , then just one person who is know troll and BM on stream.
Do you say that MoW is acting correctly in this situaiton? Wanting to go into war with Fuzer? Is that good behaviour from an organisation? I dont think we can take them seriously anymore.
Its word vs word.. for now. If more players gonna say situations like this happend there then i belive. For now its MoW staff + around 20 players vs Fuzer..
On September 13 2012 10:43 Radin wrote: 1. MoW should have provided the contract before Fuzer moved in. They should NOT have objected (or, rather, requested "verification") when he asked that his legal counsel look over the contract before he signed. This is a very shady practice.
2. MoW should have refunded the money he was owed for his second month immediately. They waited until he said he was going public on his Facebook because they knew this would happen. This is a very shady practice.
3. The NDA is a scare tactic. This is a very shady practice.
Final: Any persons who want to be viewed as a legitimate business deserve to be judged like one. I'm sorry that many of you MoW fanboys are upset by this, but the fact is, the owner brought this upon himself by not following unassailable business practices.
MoW fanboys ? No I just belive more 20 players that are saying good things abouth MoW , then just one person who is know troll and BM on stream.
Newsflash for you.
It's not about the gaming house being amazing or anything, it's about the contract and how they didn't allow him to contact his lawyer and how they didn't provide a Finnish translation of the contract and the outrageous deadline.
On September 13 2012 10:26 Gardel wrote: I sent an email to the sponsors, "boss" being and old known scammer just doesn´t seem to fit right to everything. Gl MoW
....serious?
What has been outlined here has made you believe that sponsors should not sponsor MoW with people like ret on it?
Think more before acting, and i strongly encourage everyone not to email the sponsors.
I hope that liquid pulls Ret out of there and quick. Liquid should be the good guys, not being involved in shady stuff like this. Do you actually think that MoW treated Fuzer correctly?
Let me put it this way- do you think that all organizations must be infallible to be in eSports and MoW made a fatal mistake by having a comtract/rent disagreement with one player even if they are successful with their other players?
You're being too absolutist. Something along the the lines of "If you do one thing not with me, then you're against me."
Only siths deal in absolutes.
I think that MoW are too shady and are scammers.
Don't you get tired of posting the same thing over and over again? :D
On September 13 2012 10:43 Radin wrote: 1. MoW should have provided the contract before Fuzer moved in. They should NOT have objected (or, rather, requested "verification") when he asked that his legal counsel look over the contract before he signed. This is a very shady practice.
2. MoW should have refunded the money he was owed for his second month immediately. They waited until he said he was going public on his Facebook because they knew this would happen. This is a very shady practice.
3. The NDA is a scare tactic. This is a very shady practice.
Final: Any persons who want to be viewed as a legitimate business deserve to be judged like one. I'm sorry that many of you MoW fanboys are upset by this, but the fact is, the owner brought this upon himself by not following unassailable business practices.
MoW fanboys ? No I just belive more 20 players that are saying good things aboth MoW , then just one person who is know troll and BM on stream.
Do you say that MoW is acting correctly in this situaiton? Wanting to go into war with Fuzer? Is that good behaviour from an organisation? I dont think we can take them seriously anymore.
Its word vs word.. for now. If more players gonna say situations like this happend there then i belive. For now its MoW staff + around 20 players vs Fuzer..
Stop trolling and talk about facts.
They didn't let him give the contract to his lawyer. They didn't give him a contract translated for him. They didn't give the contract until he was there. There were things he was never told about in the contract.
On September 13 2012 10:26 Gardel wrote: I sent an email to the sponsors, "boss" being and old known scammer just doesn´t seem to fit right to everything. Gl MoW
You are literally killing eSports, gj stupid troll.
Rofl, this shady stuff MoW is pulling off is killing eSports.
Whoever messages sponsors in any regard during eSports infant state is generally hurting eSports, bad/good money is money and anything we can get is good...
This is a very dangerous philosophy
Well maybe with that kind of thinking we'll finally get an inControl/IdrA sex tape one day.
On September 13 2012 10:26 Gardel wrote: I sent an email to the sponsors, "boss" being and old known scammer just doesn´t seem to fit right to everything. Gl MoW
You are literally killing eSports, gj stupid troll.
Rofl, this shady stuff MoW is pulling off is killing eSports.
Whoever messages sponsors in any regard during eSports infant state is generally hurting eSports, bad/good money is money and anything we can get is good... Trying to remove sponsors from the only real gaming house in all of Europe because of some shaddy shit that still isn't really clear to anyone is immature and ridiculous as well as showing no understanding for the eSport and lack of compassion for the rest of the industry.
Time to grow up about things and wait it out until you have the entire side, it's rash and immature to message any sponsor before the entire truth is present before you. For all we know this entire thing is full of shit.
Well MoW ripping off players and being shady as fuck is the thing that started it. These guys behind MoW just don't belong in the scene at all.
I apologize for this but I have to beg the question, did you even read my post? "wait it out until you have the entire side" was the basis of my argument and then if you have the pieces and it fits with no alternative go ahead and message the sponsors but messaging the sponsors on the day becasue you have a few pieces of the story is ludicrous at best.
The assumption (whether valid or not) of MoW ripping off players have yet to be proven true/false and most players if not all right now have stated that they have not had any similar issues whatsoever so what evidence do you really have? A statement from a relatively unknown player about his bad experience that seemed to just boil down to not understanding English well enough (no fault of his own mind you).
"These guys behind MoW just don't belong in the scene at all."
Please go on to explain that, obviously from everything said you must have all the answers to make such a strong statement right? Again a TL poster overreacting after hearing one side of the argument, surprise surprise surprise.
So to kinda knot all this up, if you want to message sponsors then that is your right as a viewer to express dislike towards a product/industry but when you message the sponsor your should do so only when you're 100% sure about what you're talking about and right now it doesn't even look like MoW or the accusing player are 100% of what really went down so I doubt you or the poster who messaged sponsors are.
On September 13 2012 10:26 Gardel wrote: I sent an email to the sponsors, "boss" being and old known scammer just doesn´t seem to fit right to everything. Gl MoW
....serious?
What has been outlined here has made you believe that sponsors should not sponsor MoW with people like ret on it?
Think more before acting, and i strongly encourage everyone not to email the sponsors.
I hope that liquid pulls Ret out of there and quick. Liquid should be the good guys, not being involved in shady stuff like this. Do you actually think that MoW treated Fuzer correctly?
Let me put it this way- do you think that all organizations must be infallible to be in eSports and MoW made a fatal mistake by having a comtract/rent disagreement with one player even if they are successful with their other players?
You're being too absolutist. Something along the the lines of "If you do one thing not with me, then you're against me."
Only siths deal in absolutes.
I think that MoW are too shady and are scammers.
Well then that's where we disagree, they have yet to really scam anyone and work with reputable people who havent made serious complaints bar one.
We should stop this convo though, because it seems like we got different impressions and so not only is arguing pointless, all I can do is look at a post count of 44 and think about how by 2000 posts the only accounts left generally hold more moderate and less extreme opinions
On September 13 2012 10:43 Radin wrote: 1. MoW should have provided the contract before Fuzer moved in. They should NOT have objected (or, rather, requested "verification") when he asked that his legal counsel look over the contract before he signed. This is a very shady practice.
2. MoW should have refunded the money he was owed for his second month immediately. They waited until he said he was going public on his Facebook because they knew this would happen. This is a very shady practice.
3. The NDA is a scare tactic. This is a very shady practice.
Final: Any persons who want to be viewed as a legitimate business deserve to be judged like one. I'm sorry that many of you MoW fanboys are upset by this, but the fact is, the owner brought this upon himself by not following unassailable business practices.
MoW fanboys ? No I just belive more 20 players that are saying good things abouth MoW , then just one person who is know troll and BM on stream.
Newsflash for you.
It's not about the gaming house being amazing or anything, it's about the contract and how they didn't allow him to contact his lawyer and how they didn't provide a Finnish translation of the contract and the outrageous deadline.
You are arguing completely irrelevant things.
Not , its you taht miss my point. Any another players didint have problems with that.. , there are french , german , korean players there and many more.. non of them was having no problems with reading the contract..and im sure they dont speak or read english alos. My question is why ONLY fuzer was having problems with that..
On September 13 2012 10:54 Freezd wrote: My fellow esports brothers, email Ministry of Win's sponsors! The biggest one is Razer. This shall not be supported by such a great company!!!
Dude, even if I or you dont like the situation but doing that is not good in a long run.
On September 13 2012 10:03 Gendo wrote: That initiative looked full of shit since the beginning but now even worst, 10 years really? should dismantle that and give money back to everyone.
Do you even know why the 10 year NDA is in effect? It's so we don't go to a competator and give out company secrets. They're the first of this kind of gaming house model, If others want to copy it they don't need someone that use to live in MoW becoming a manager and taking all their secrets to be a tough competitor. This is why I'm here, I've read the NDA that you didn't, I know what the contract stated, and why the 10 year NDA was in effect. It was needed and we all understood what it was for, All the players understood when I lived there.
10 years, rofl, 10 years, an entire decade, a WHOLE DECADE, you fucks must be naive.
10-year NDAs are fine (whatever that means).
The problem here is none of you know what an NDA is. It's a Non-Disclosure Agreement.
You guys are thinking of a Non-Competition Agreement (preclusion from working for a competitor). These last nowhere near 10 years (typically one to two years) and are only for industries with huge secrets (eg. technology companies). A Non-Competition Agreement doesn't make much sense for gaming houses - what secrets are you going to steal?
From the articles I read, it is a non-competetion agreement in the form of not being able to create a gaming house (according to MoW). Fuzer seemed to interpret it as not being able to join another one at all, instead of not being able to create one. A 10 year non-compete is absurdly long.
I think this is just a mistake that is blown out of proportion. MoW should force a contract signing before anything. Fuzer should have accepted the money that was offered.
Two mistakes happened and that is the end of the story: 1) Contracts signed before moving in 2) Dont initially refuse to give money back if a contract is never signed
On September 13 2012 10:26 Gardel wrote: I sent an email to the sponsors, "boss" being and old known scammer just doesn´t seem to fit right to everything. Gl MoW
You are literally killing eSports, gj stupid troll.
Rofl, this shady stuff MoW is pulling off is killing eSports.
Killing esports is gathering players in one place and allowing them to focus on practice + promoting them? Fuzer and his retarded defenders emailing sponsors without real knowledge what actually happened is killing esports...
Seriously though... Go and start your own practice house and wi'll see how you're doing in terms of legal matters and PR in a few months.
Fuzer is a douche, MoW are unexperienced. That's all. Give this project a breather guys... It's really good for SC2, players and esports to support those kind of endevours.
wait so you know what actually happened then? Tell us mr guru. I don't know how players being gathered to a place to practice is even semi-relevant to what MoW's contract mishaps. Plus your second statement is that of a 12 year old child basically stating, "hey you don't like the food at the restuarant you just ate at? Go start your own and see how it does". It's neither a logical statement nor an investment that millions of people in this world take in their life. Just because someone wouldn't take that investment doesn't mean standards should be low as fuck and people being taken advantage of "just because that's the only restuarant near by".
You're a retard, You're delusional. That's all. Give yourself a reality check guy...
On September 13 2012 10:54 Freezd wrote: My fellow esports brothers, email Ministry of Win's sponsors! The biggest one is Razer. This shall not be supported by such a great company!!!
Dude, even if I or you dont like the situation but doing that is not good in a long run.
Frankly by the way you handled things you seemed to aim for MoW to be burned, you made comments regarding the living conditions being lackluster, the company being unfocused and the contract being unclear in a public forum.
On September 13 2012 10:43 Radin wrote: 1. MoW should have provided the contract before Fuzer moved in. They should NOT have objected (or, rather, requested "verification") when he asked that his legal counsel look over the contract before he signed. This is a very shady practice.
2. MoW should have refunded the money he was owed for his second month immediately. They waited until he said he was going public on his Facebook because they knew this would happen. This is a very shady practice.
3. The NDA is a scare tactic. This is a very shady practice.
Final: Any persons who want to be viewed as a legitimate business deserve to be judged like one. I'm sorry that many of you MoW fanboys are upset by this, but the fact is, the owner brought this upon himself by not following unassailable business practices.
MoW fanboys ? No I just belive more 20 players that are saying good things abouth MoW , then just one person who is know troll and BM on stream.
Newsflash for you.
It's not about the gaming house being amazing or anything, it's about the contract and how they didn't allow him to contact his lawyer and how they didn't provide a Finnish translation of the contract and the outrageous deadline.
You are arguing completely irrelevant things.
Not , its you taht miss my point. Any another players didint have problems with that.. , there are french , german , korean players there and many more.. non of them was having no problems with reading the contract..and im sure they dont speak or read english alos. My question is why ONLY fuzer was having problems with that..
So if their English was good enough it means that Fuzer's English has to be as good, as well? This is what you are saying? So if they are more confident in their English than Fuzer it means that Fuzer has no right to not be confident in his?
On September 13 2012 10:26 Gardel wrote: I sent an email to the sponsors, "boss" being and old known scammer just doesn´t seem to fit right to everything. Gl MoW
....serious?
What has been outlined here has made you believe that sponsors should not sponsor MoW with people like ret on it?
Think more before acting, and i strongly encourage everyone not to email the sponsors.
I hope that liquid pulls Ret out of there and quick. Liquid should be the good guys, not being involved in shady stuff like this. Do you actually think that MoW treated Fuzer correctly?
Let me put it this way- do you think that all organizations must be infallible to be in eSports and MoW made a fatal mistake by having a comtract/rent disagreement with one player even if they are successful with their other players?
You're being too absolutist. Something along the the lines of "If you do one thing not with me, then you're against me."
Only siths deal in absolutes.
I think that MoW are too shady and are scammers.
Well then that's where we disagree, they have yet to really scam anyone and work with reputable people who havent made serious complaints bar one.
We should stop this convo though, because it seems like we got different impressions and so not only is arguing pointless, all I can do is look at a post count of 44 and think about how by 2000 posts the only accounts left generally hold more moderate and less extreme opinions
EPT
