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On August 27 2012 04:36 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 02:39 Black Gun wrote:a "T is much harder to play than Z or P"-thread in disguise.  Oh of course. Even when terrans were "op" though foreign terrans did always struggle and there weren't many like there were in korea. Dunno koreans just practice more, and I am guessing since bw was so big over there lots of players that play sc2 played bw and thus have good control/macro as it's a lot easier to macro in sc2 compared to bw.
I totally agree but with an amendment. I could practice 12 hours a day for 2 years and never be as good as Taeja, MKP et al because you need to have opponents of that level to play against to get that good. B teamers in Korea get to play against the top players in the world, every day. Top NA and Eu pros get to practice against other top tier NA and EU pros and other GM's, they can practice 12 hours a day and very few of them (with a couple of notable exceptions) will ever get to the same level as Koreans because their opponents aren't of the same class.
That is why I like to practice against Mid to high Master league players, they whip my ass nearly every time but I learn way faster and improve steadily. Flip side that to when I go hardcore laddering (I'm Dia 1600ish MMR, been as high as 1950 MMR), playing people of my own skill level and don't really improve or learn anything new because my opponents aren't challenging me in the same way as someone who is far and away better than I. I'm sure that if I could practice in a house with Taeja for a week or two, I'd be well on my way to high master ;p
Hell, I play on KR server for 2 hours and my micro improves lol. I win more TvPs on korea than on EU and NA combined lol, I jst get in to a different mindset somehow and get way more aggressive and focus harder on battle control and battle macro.
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On August 27 2012 03:24 decaf wrote:
Koreans practice much more than foreigners.
Terran needs much more practice than zerg and protoss.
There's your answer.
This.
But it will all change in Hots with new mech units, no micro intesive.
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If the argument is that Terran requires less skill in relative to other races, then why do non-korean zergs do as equally well as korean, if not better? This phenomenon is not new, but it is hard to give an answer to it.
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Terran has the highest skill ceiling and is the most demanding mechanically. Koreans are more skilled and have better mechanics. Shocker!
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On August 27 2012 02:39 Black Gun wrote:a "T is much harder to play than Z or P"-thread in disguise.
I think you're wrong. I think it's a "It's much harder to play T without whining than Z or P"-thread in disguise ;-)
Back to the original point. Koreans have over a decade of evolution head start. They've figured out how to make players.
While we had a hand full of die hards they had barrels full of die hards. If you're surrounded by good players. You will improve a lot faster than just figuring out everything from scratch by yourself in isolation. When sc2 came out koreans were teenagers we were infants.
I have learned basically everything I know myself. I had one friend who was better at broodwar than me. Nobody I know IRL can beat me at SC2 and I basically suck at it. I even regret playing my best against a few friends. Who realized how much they had to learn to be decent and just moved on to easier games.
Koreans understand that it's about winning and making GSL or proleague. Among EU/NA players there is a lot of self delusions like "cheese bad" forinstance. That winning doesn't count unless it's done in some particular way. They understand that it's about improving and not about getting ladderpoints. They're not affraid to do something other than 1rax FE.
Yes we have a few foreigners who put in a lot of hours. I'm willing to bet they put in a lot more time per player on average.
They have a culture built around esports. That has been around a long time. We have soccer on TV they have starcraft.
TLDR;
The most important point being that if you surround yourself with winners. You are much more likely to become a winner. If you have a good teacher you're likely to learn a lot faster.
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It's not even Korean Terrans. It's Taeja and MVP specifically.
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infestors are such a horrible boring unit, it seriously counters every unit in the game infestor > zerg > terran > toss wouldnt be so shitty and boring if it stopped units from moving
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To the people saying Koreans just know how to train and win. How does that explain how non korean toss and zerg are better then terrans?
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On August 27 2012 00:38 EmilA wrote:
Judging from korean streams, K terrans have 1000x more wonky builds than we do.
Koreans are very aggressive in general, and Terran is well suited to be aggressive with all their early offensive options. I remember watching Bomber play vs Forgg on the ladder, and one went for a BC rush off one base, and the other went 1-1-1 on Antigua shipyard.
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Multitask benefits a lot from practice and terran benefits a lot from multitask
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i dont know what the koreans are saying but in my opinion for non-pros, just the usual casuals of everyone below high master, i dont think koreans care so much about build orders and whatnot like some of the things i see here. over here its all metagame this, metagame that, auto build order losses and what not. i myself emphasis on mechanics and couldnt give a single fuck on metagame. people need to focus getting better through their mechanics and decision making, not perfecting a build or go by the metagame, blaming the opponent for doing something unorthodox. (random cry threads anyone?)
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On August 27 2012 08:40 Avicularia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 03:24 decaf wrote:
Koreans practice much more than foreigners.
Terran needs much more practice than zerg and protoss.
There's your answer. This. But it will all change in Hots with new mech units, no micro intesive.
That's if you decide to mech though. If you remain with bio then nothing will change, except that blinding cloud.....and mech wont really help much vs Zerg
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On August 27 2012 09:13 Psychobabas wrote:
It's not even Korean Terrans. It's Taeja and MVP specifically.
LOL. You are wrong good sir. There are a ton of good Korean terrans and there have been for a long long time. There are a lot more then just MVP and taeja.
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Terran requires excellent micro, great build orders and very clean execution. As a Terran player you can't transition and wing it. Korean players are well known for their practice habits and preparation and that really shines through more for Terran than the other two races. Each piece of a Terran build is carefully mapped out and practiced, everything matters from gas timings to when the eng bay goes down for upgrades. Terran also scales with multitasking far better than either of the other two races.
Zerg requires far less time practicing to play a smooth game. Simply having an idea for a composition is enough to get by. Zergs can become good by playing a lot of ladder games, and still require a lot of mechanical skill. Zerg build orders are far more forgiving and generally zergs get to set the pace of the game. There really isn't much advantage gained from being surgical in Zerg build order execution.
Protoss is similar to Zerg in that respect. Protoss can instantly balance a late game economy with addition sentries, templar or zealots. Protoss lategame units also don't require a whole lot in terms of control, although earlier in small skirmishes Toss players do need great control. Protoss also doesn't reward multitasking at all so extremely fast late game micro palyers like MMA wouldn't benefit at all i they played toss. Toss build orders are also easy to practice and pull off, and again Toss players set the pace of the game. Toss chooses their tech path against Terran and has to make no deviations really, and against Zerg Toss only really has one viable composition outside of their all ins.
Once you add all the those factors up it becomes pretty clear that it's much easier to get the most out of Toss and Zerg, while Terran requires a certain threshold of work to even break even. I'd say it takes twice as much effort to be a great Terran player as it would for either of the other two races, however the gains from similar work put in by Zerg and Toss players don't get rewarded like they should.
Zerg has the most imbalanced unit in the game and the best macro mechanic (Infestor, Larva Injects) and Protoss is completely broken on about ten different levels (Upgrades/chrono, warpgate, colossus, immortals, zealots, sentries etc) but the game is balanced around those factors. What we're left with is a game that is balanced sure, but one with huge gaping flaws and holes in it's design that could very easily be addressed in HoTS although it looks like Blizzard is just going to make things worse.
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There may be some truth to the argument that terran has the highest skill cap, but then shouldn't there be a lot less korean terran once you go down to foreign levels (mid master on KR)? If there are still a lot of terrans doing well all the way down the korean ladder, then the "higher skill cap" is not really enough to explain it all.
How about tradition? terran was a lot more popular already in korean sc:bw than foreign sc:bw right? Maybe the legacy just carried over?
I really like the cheese-argument though!
Us foreigners have a very infected relationship to cheese. Maybe we insult the cheesers so much that legit players cheese less than they should to avoid being branded as cheesers?
Also, the top players outside kr are a quite alone on the ladder I feel. When I see stream of top players on ladder, they almost only get matched up vs people well below their skill level. And playing ppl below your skill level, it is often better to take a safe macro approach and go for late-game rather than cheese. That is, when a foreign pro is playing on ladder, it is better for them to almost never cheese, to get their winrate from 65% to 70%, as most of their opponents are worse than them. So they never get to train cheesing. And most of the cheese the top players see is from lower players, "noobs" that managed to "inflate" their MMR through cheesing, giving a bad reputation to cheesing in general among top players. Also idra.
Playing as a top player on korean ladder, you will get matched up against other extremely good players all the time. Half the time you will be matched with code-S players, and the other half is not much below that. Thus, everyone (except maybe the very best players in the world) benefits from throwing in a cheese every now and then on the korean ladder, as you will never play a pushover. Thus, playing on the kr ladder, you get regular training in cheesing top players.
Essentially it is the difference that the korean scene is much deeper. While the top 5 foreigners may take a series every now and then from the top 5 koreans, the top 1000 foreigners is on a much lower standard than the top 1000 koreans. Maybe the large supply of almost top level training available on the ladder makes cheese a more normal part of play, which in turn very well could favour terran.
Maybe we need a wave of BitByBits on the foreign ladder? 
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Did you miss that the thread was about koreans TERRANS being better than foreign TERRANS, to larger extent than the two other races? Or you just felt like driving by and dropping your default argument for the korea vs foreign debate, relevant or not? Or do you mean that IQ is more important for terrans?
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Excellent post Filter, and just as a side note, thanks for your tutorials as well (they got me from silver to now facing plats in gold :D)
As a relatively low level Terran, it was a bit depressing to watch this MLG in a few ways. Following a 1 rax expand build since silver vs all races, I've been focusing on macro and getting to the late game to practice my mechanics. Yet just about every time I saw Terrans reach the late game vs P or Z, they had to play either perfectly or already have a lead in some way to pull of the win. With maxed armies, your micro and multitask has to be perfect, and you only have a single ace unit (ghosts) against the two that the Protoss possess (HTs and Colossus). Against Zerg, I'm just not sure what you can do against late game Infestor/Brood armies. I couldn't really come up with anything that could allow you to match army strength and trade armies in an effective manner (since Zerg resupplies 10x as fast as Terran). Keep in mind I'm just a Gold Terran, but it's a bit depressing to see even the pros seemingly have no answer for big late game tech. I suppose I might have to do more of what Koreans apparently do and learn a few good all-ins.
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In NA, anything that isn't part of the current metagame is considered cheese. The players on NA that cheese usually just do blind cheese without any reasoning behind it other than "(insert race) imba". At least when I go to ladder on the KR server, the cheese makes sense. Korean players have way better mechanics which makes them better players in general. On top of the mechanics, they have great game knowledge and are also good at scouting/denying scouting.
Lets just say it this way:
Korean Sc2 players are humans just like Foreign Sc2 Players, they just have a better understanding because when they practice, they do it with a purpose and not just with the hopes of getting better.
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All this posts about Terran requiring multitask, micro, being aggressive, am I wrong if I say these only apply to bio? Since mech, not saying it is easy, because it is not, but with mech you cannot be as aggressive, and don't need so much micro. So when you say being aggressive, micro etc it only applies to bio right?
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EPT
