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On August 28 2012 04:23 _Search_ wrote:
I'm master league in KR and NA and I find the Korean Terrans do a number of things that make them much scarier:
- They don't always fast expand directly at their natural. When I scout with my overlord and don't see an expansion down I start going into anxiety mode, dropping spines and delaying tech. Then the fully completed OC drops into the natural, losing only a few seconds compared to if the Terran had built it right at the natural. And the other half the time they're actually doing a risky one-base rush.
- They know what sucks about Zerg and abuse the hell out of it. Zerg can't shoot up, so TvZ early game is all about using medivacs and banshees to mess up the Zerg economy. Zerg needs to see to survive, so preventing creep spread and sniping overlords kills Zerg's chances of survival. Zerg has no ranged units, so Shakuras Plateau and Antiga Shipyard are basically auto-wins for any Terran willing to exploit the cliffs. Zerg falls hard to unexpected tech, so showing up at Zerg's natural with 16 hellions (after preventing any sort of Zerg scouting) is an instant win for a zerg with bad sim city and no roaches. Zerg can't kill units being healed by medivacs, and they definitely can't kill marines in mineral lines, so the game for a lot of Koreans is to just get to those sweet spots where marines are invulnerable.
- Korean Terrans play very risky with their medivac drops. They lose them constantly but keep doing them because they know it just takes one good drop to end the game. Once those marines are sandwiched in the minerals they can't be killed. They also do multi-pronged drops while clearing creep with their main army.
- They never. leave. games. Shoot me now.
- As one mega bio/tank push is being swarmed the second is on the way. Day9 said Terrans generally wait 2 minutes between marine tank pushes. Not Korean Terrans. I have lost games because I literally did not have 20 seconds to morph banelings during 3 solid minutes of a constant stream of units. Ahead, behind, Korean do NOT care. They will keep attacking until someone dies.
- Koreans tend to trade a bigger economy for constant aggression. They tend to take their third very late and their fourth even later, if ever.
All in all the best way to describe the difference between Koreans and foreigners is by describing each's idea of a perfect game. To a foreign Terran the perfect game is getting away with taking a ridiculously greedy third. To a Korean Terran it's winning in the first 6 minutes. Zergs aren't scared of greedy Terrans, but they're terrified of risky rushes.
I have always thought being unpredictable was terrans best weapon. Denying scouting and knowing the weakness of the other races has always been a great weapon for terrans. Bringing the fear of a stupid all in, hidden base or horrible, weirdly timed drop is everything that a dread against a terran. One rax - FE is not. If you can't know someone is going to all in, you can't play greedy.
On a side note, what side of Canada are you on? I want a KR account, but I am on the east coast and do not want to do if it my lag is terrible. My connection to the rest of the world is very good.
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The notion that "they are only better because they cheese" is just so wrong...
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Zerg is the only race that can produce an attack at any time in the game and it not be an all in. The swarm of units that are produced are insane. not only that 200 health floating supply depots with jet packs scout anything at any given point with a simple 100 mineral trade. Also a simple 150 mineral only range unit that has much health can deny 3 hellions per 1 queen. thats 300 minerals < 150 minerals. Zerg is just more powerful from the bottom to the top. You can go as far down as the drones. An unmicro'd marine < 2 drones in battle. (test it out if you dont believe me, and when i say unmicro'd i mean a very badly micro'd 1 marine (but still tried)). All of these are just the brink of the races in game advantages. Cloud kingdom ovie over the natural see's everything. The death ball army....The best stop unit in the game (infestor) and not to mention brood lords. And the last thing.....THE EASIEST mechanically demanding race in the game hands down.
I am not crying op. Im saying, hm maybe i should have practiced with zerg from the start of the game lol. But w/e i still love wings and practice with terran no matter what but i still like playing the game. Even though it takes more work for me.
User was temp banned for this post.
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The key to any new strategy is to develope new openings and transitions.
Strategy's are ultimately just planned transitions from openings, to early game to mid to late. By changing the common timings that we know, new units and playstyles things become more effective at certain moments in the game.
When i was a zerg in zvz i used to hatch first with a drone scout, then delay my pool for as long as possible and throw down a banenest as soon as my 50 gas got mined.
i'd sacrifice some econ for my scout but i'd gain the chance of more because i knew exactly what they where doing, and would often 15 hatch, 18 pool 17 gas, which is normally suicidal... yet because i'd get a bane nest i'd be perfectly safe to any aggression but i wouldnt be able to be aggressive because i didnt have speed. Now the timings for the rest of the game are different now.
another thing i like to do as terran these days is 14 CC, resume scv production, then gas then rax vs zerg, using my CC as part of my wall off. I'd rush for seige mode and i'd be safe against any all in and i'd expand safely, then get another CC before i take my gas at the nat and then i'd go up to 4fac (2 tech 2 reactor) and double upgrades and transition into thors.
I'd eventually take my third base, while pushing with about 15 marines, 20 or so BFH with +2+2, 6 tanks and a heap of thors, at around 160 supply at 14 mins.
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From what I can tell of the difference between Korean and Foreign playstyles, the general theme is some sort of aggression is always present on both sides in Korea. We do see some greedy macro play in tournaments, but it's usually based on some metagame choice. In the west, we see more defensive styles from all races.
In my opinion, this would explain why Terrans do so poorly outside of Korea, and why foreigners that aren't Terran do really well. Zerg and Protoss have good lategame options that can easily win the game with proper engagement decisions. Banelings, HTs, Colossus, and Infestors can turn a small misstep into a lost game, so getting to that point is top priority for foreigners. As Terran, your lategame options either boil down to tons of uneven trades (because you can never win a battle even close to unscathed), or tearing your opponent apart with drops and pressure. This is why Korean Terrans still win, because they are just so much faster than their foreign opponents that play "safe" styles in the early game.
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On August 28 2012 07:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 04:23 _Search_ wrote:
I'm master league in KR and NA and I find the Korean Terrans do a number of things that make them much scarier:
- They don't always fast expand directly at their natural. When I scout with my overlord and don't see an expansion down I start going into anxiety mode, dropping spines and delaying tech. Then the fully completed OC drops into the natural, losing only a few seconds compared to if the Terran had built it right at the natural. And the other half the time they're actually doing a risky one-base rush.
- They know what sucks about Zerg and abuse the hell out of it. Zerg can't shoot up, so TvZ early game is all about using medivacs and banshees to mess up the Zerg economy. Zerg needs to see to survive, so preventing creep spread and sniping overlords kills Zerg's chances of survival. Zerg has no ranged units, so Shakuras Plateau and Antiga Shipyard are basically auto-wins for any Terran willing to exploit the cliffs. Zerg falls hard to unexpected tech, so showing up at Zerg's natural with 16 hellions (after preventing any sort of Zerg scouting) is an instant win for a zerg with bad sim city and no roaches. Zerg can't kill units being healed by medivacs, and they definitely can't kill marines in mineral lines, so the game for a lot of Koreans is to just get to those sweet spots where marines are invulnerable.
- Korean Terrans play very risky with their medivac drops. They lose them constantly but keep doing them because they know it just takes one good drop to end the game. Once those marines are sandwiched in the minerals they can't be killed. They also do multi-pronged drops while clearing creep with their main army.
- They never. leave. games. Shoot me now.
- As one mega bio/tank push is being swarmed the second is on the way. Day9 said Terrans generally wait 2 minutes between marine tank pushes. Not Korean Terrans. I have lost games because I literally did not have 20 seconds to morph banelings during 3 solid minutes of a constant stream of units. Ahead, behind, Korean do NOT care. They will keep attacking until someone dies.
- Koreans tend to trade a bigger economy for constant aggression. They tend to take their third very late and their fourth even later, if ever.
All in all the best way to describe the difference between Koreans and foreigners is by describing each's idea of a perfect game. To a foreign Terran the perfect game is getting away with taking a ridiculously greedy third. To a Korean Terran it's winning in the first 6 minutes. Zergs aren't scared of greedy Terrans, but they're terrified of risky rushes. I have always thought being unpredictable was terrans best weapon. Denying scouting and knowing the weakness of the other races has always been a great weapon for terrans. Bringing the fear of a stupid all in, hidden base or horrible, weirdly timed drop is everything that a dread against a terran. One rax - FE is not. If you can't know someone is going to all in, you can't play greedy. On a side note, what side of Canada are you on? I want a KR account, but I am on the east coast and do not want to do if it my lag is terrible. My connection to the rest of the world is very good.
I'm in Japan, and I still play on the NA server but get awful lag.
I just played against a Diamond Terran on KR who opened fast factory/starport on Tal Darim and had 2 hellions in my mineral line before I could even see if he had expanded or not. Then he had two full medivacs of bio at my natural before ling speed was done. I still beat him, because KR macro is awful, and his aggression was super risky (they tend to attack with far too small a force, both Terrans and Protosses), but those types of openings can and will win games straight-up.
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OFC NA Players sux because All NA people soo DUMB :D hehheeh more MC Donalds food u must to eat. EU simple OWN NA, Korean terran dont cry like all EU players - they have good build and good macro and then use imba terran mech.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 27 2012 00:16 ( bush wrote:
Terran is a harder race, not everyone can play at a good level. Toss and Zerg do not need skill at all, they just need knowledge and everything is fine, thats why you dont see big difference betwen foreigners and koreans.
On August 27 2012 00:51 Kontys wrote:
Speaking from personal experience Terran mechanics are way way way more complicated than Protoss (no mechanics required) or Zerg (hit injects). The whole concept of having a macro cycle seems to evade Terrans.
On August 27 2012 02:07 ArcticRaven wrote:
Also, terran has a way higher skill ceiling and rewards skill a lot more ; if you're better at terran than your terran friend, the difference will be a lot more obvious than with a similar protoss or zerg skill gap.
On August 27 2012 03:24 decaf wrote:
Koreans practice much more than foreigners.
Terran needs much more practice than zerg and protoss.
There's your answer.
These quotes have only been taken from the first two pages. I find it ridiculous how many terran-fans there are that either falsely but definitely without evidence, claim strong things about both terran as other races. They claim terran has the highest skill ceiling, requires the most mechanics, that zerg/protoss are a much easier race to play and require less practice et cetera.
If you already say such things, please be a man and back up your statement as to why you think what you said is true.
The main difference between protoss/zerg and Terran is that terran has several different buildings, with different add-ons.
That is macro wise, so they have to tab between buildings more to get the same amount of units out.
But then again zerg has to multi-rally their bases, so that when they are being assaulted, their reinforcements from a stray hatchery don't straight run into the enemy.
Zerg has injects, terran has mules, protoss has chronoboost.
It would seem rather awkward that a terran would be able to be so much better, purely because of "better mechanics", compared to the other two races.
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On August 28 2012 06:02 Blacklizard wrote:
If a new build is developed by a Korean that kills in the first 15 minutes, it's called a timing and everybody picks up on it and perfects it.
If a new build is developed by a US masters player that kills in the first 15 minutes, it's seen as a bad way to play and the higher level players ignore it or only concentrate on a counter build and scouting the aggressive build.
Truly, it reminds me of the Street Fighter 2 mindset I was exposed to back in the day. There were so many places that considered throwing cheesey. Of course that eliminates half of the game and encourages strategies that may or may not work against players that know how to play well and also throw.
Same can be said of StarCraft 2. It seems like at least in the US culture... for the most part Teamliquid, casters, and many US/NA players in the public eye encourage players to hate 4 gates, hate aggression, hate baneling busts, hate bio, and only think about long defensive games. I'm exaggerating a little, but you get my meaning. And sometimes the only aggressive players left in the US are the people with the worst attitude that nobody wants to be associated with.
Luckily in Korea, they know better. Macro is important, so is micro. Long games are fine, but short aggressive games are just as fine... and long aggressive games are really fine.
I doubt this is the entire reason, but I feel like this is a really good point.
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On August 27 2012 22:13 CatNzHat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 21:59 ShatterZer0 wrote:On August 27 2012 00:55 Drowsy wrote:On August 27 2012 00:17 Bonneyi wrote:
ofcourse its not practice... i mean look at kas's profile.
Me myself have been living like a progammer during the summer :D, i mean 8 hours of playing a day, (from 9-23) with brakes tranings etc etc, and the biggest improvement was from going top plat to going mid diamond :D i mean come on there is something im doing terribly wrong, im justr trying to understand, what is it that we Europeans and Americans do differently. Dear god, I would shoot myself if all I could do is plat to diamond playing 8 hours a day for a summer. I play like 5 hours a week maybe for mid masters. He might be playing on the KR server, who knows? KR Mid-Dia is like High Masters anywhere else, right? diamond on KR is not like high masters on NA/EU/SEA. Diamond on KR is like diamond on NA. High masters on NA is like GM on NA/EU, and mid masters on KR is like high masters on other servers. Low masters and below is about the same everywhere.
You could not be more wrong, diamond on KOR (Say mid-high diamond) is easily a mid masters+ on NA. Top masters on KOR is easily high GM on both EU and NA (Look at MaNa, he is normally like 70% w/l ratio at the top, top of GM on EU) The Low masters players on Korea as as good as High masters on NA.
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I think that Terran is the most powerful race in SC2 and at the same time the least forgiving. What I´m saying is that if Terran is played perfectly it should be unbeatable for the other 2 races. To my mind, there´s no skill limit for a Terran player. You can always do more to improve your play as Terran. However, as Protoss or Zerg player I feel like you can reach a limit where you can´t get better anymore because more Skill doesn´t transition into better gameplay. Which leads me to the conclusion that Terran is very fragile race(One bad engagement can easily cost a Terran the game. I feel like P and Z can recover better from bad engagements, especially lategame because of Warpgate/Larva Mechanic)) but the most powerful race in the hands of a player like MVP for example.
You could also describe it with functions. Zerg and Protoss would be root function like f(x)=sqrt(x) and Terran would be a slowly growing function of the class e^x. The x-axis would be gameplay(or how well someone plays) and the y-axis would be skill. While a root function has limiting value, the terran function doesn´t.
What do you guys think about this statement? Is this true or just wrong?
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On August 28 2012 17:23 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 22:13 CatNzHat wrote:On August 27 2012 21:59 ShatterZer0 wrote:On August 27 2012 00:55 Drowsy wrote:On August 27 2012 00:17 Bonneyi wrote:
ofcourse its not practice... i mean look at kas's profile.
Me myself have been living like a progammer during the summer :D, i mean 8 hours of playing a day, (from 9-23) with brakes tranings etc etc, and the biggest improvement was from going top plat to going mid diamond :D i mean come on there is something im doing terribly wrong, im justr trying to understand, what is it that we Europeans and Americans do differently. Dear god, I would shoot myself if all I could do is plat to diamond playing 8 hours a day for a summer. I play like 5 hours a week maybe for mid masters. He might be playing on the KR server, who knows? KR Mid-Dia is like High Masters anywhere else, right? diamond on KR is not like high masters on NA/EU/SEA. Diamond on KR is like diamond on NA. High masters on NA is like GM on NA/EU, and mid masters on KR is like high masters on other servers. Low masters and below is about the same everywhere. You could not be more wrong, diamond on KOR (Say mid-high diamond) is easily a mid masters+ on NA. Top masters on KOR is easily high GM on both EU and NA (Look at MaNa, he is normally like 70% w/l ratio at the top, top of GM on EU) The Low masters players on Korea as as good as High masters on NA.
Second Mr Bird here. When comparing NA and KR ladders, every KR league is 0.5-1.0 lower then the NA equivalent (ie, 100th NA GM's = highish KR Masters). You seriously cannot compare these two ladders in terms of skill it's not even close. KR diamond level players (assuming it's not a smurf account being ranked up... sigh) can execute a basic build order and timing reasonably well but they start to stumble when the opponent hasn't died yet and they have to do hard things like macro and make decisions. But they do very well up to that point.
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I don't understand some of these nonkorean pros. Practice 5-8 games a day?? When I'm trying to take this game seriously I play 20-40 games a day. It's cool that they have talent but it's kinda a shame to be wasting it away. If they don't feel like they need more games than that to compete then there is definitely no reason not to take a university degree in the meantime.
I wonder how much of the improvement in korea is due to playing koreans and how much is just because of actually playing more than next to nothing.
And to stay on topic: This is why I feel that they are on a totally different level. In theory there are way way way more potential nonkorean players, but they are simply willing to put in more of an effort.
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On August 28 2012 16:59 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:16 ( bush wrote:
Terran is a harder race, not everyone can play at a good level. Toss and Zerg do not need skill at all, they just need knowledge and everything is fine, thats why you dont see big difference betwen foreigners and koreans.
Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:51 Kontys wrote:
Speaking from personal experience Terran mechanics are way way way more complicated than Protoss (no mechanics required) or Zerg (hit injects). The whole concept of having a macro cycle seems to evade Terrans.
Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 02:07 ArcticRaven wrote:
Also, terran has a way higher skill ceiling and rewards skill a lot more ; if you're better at terran than your terran friend, the difference will be a lot more obvious than with a similar protoss or zerg skill gap. Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 03:24 decaf wrote:
Koreans practice much more than foreigners.
Terran needs much more practice than zerg and protoss.
There's your answer. These quotes have only been taken from the first two pages. I find it ridiculous how many terran-fans there are that either falsely but definitely without evidence, claim strong things about both terran as other races. They claim terran has the highest skill ceiling, requires the most mechanics, that zerg/protoss are a much easier race to play and require less practice et cetera. If you already say such things, please be a man and back up your statement as to why you think what you said is true. The main difference between protoss/zerg and Terran is that terran has several different buildings, with different add-ons. That is macro wise, so they have to tab between buildings more to get the same amount of units out. But then again zerg has to multi-rally their bases, so that when they are being assaulted, their reinforcements from a stray hatchery don't straight run into the enemy. Zerg has injects, terran has mules, protoss has chronoboost. It would seem rather awkward that a terran would be able to be so much better, purely because of "better mechanics", compared to the other two races.
I love to play all 3 races at my humble plat level, and I can say without a doubt that yes, Terran is more skill requiring than zerg macro-wise.
My main race is Zerg atm, and if it's not Terran it's only because my god am I awful at macroing, when I play Zerg I don't face this problem because I can just have 32 larva waiting for the repop or the tech switch, but when I play Terran I always miss unit cycles because I'm too busy trying to avoid fungals/storm/banelings and when finally I kill the army, I've got 5 rines and 2 marauders left at my base and with them 2k minerals and 1k5 gas, and I play probably 40% of my ladder games as Terran.
I think it's safe to say that Terran is indeed more mechanics heavy than Zerg and maybe Protoss ( I don't play it enough to judge objectively ), maybe not requiring more skill, but definitely more mechanics which not eeryone has ( I don't ! )
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On August 28 2012 18:10 GregMandel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 16:59 kaluro wrote:On August 27 2012 00:16 ( bush wrote:
Terran is a harder race, not everyone can play at a good level. Toss and Zerg do not need skill at all, they just need knowledge and everything is fine, thats why you dont see big difference betwen foreigners and koreans.
On August 27 2012 00:51 Kontys wrote:
Speaking from personal experience Terran mechanics are way way way more complicated than Protoss (no mechanics required) or Zerg (hit injects). The whole concept of having a macro cycle seems to evade Terrans.
On August 27 2012 02:07 ArcticRaven wrote:
Also, terran has a way higher skill ceiling and rewards skill a lot more ; if you're better at terran than your terran friend, the difference will be a lot more obvious than with a similar protoss or zerg skill gap. On August 27 2012 03:24 decaf wrote:
Koreans practice much more than foreigners.
Terran needs much more practice than zerg and protoss.
There's your answer. These quotes have only been taken from the first two pages. I find it ridiculous how many terran-fans there are that either falsely but definitely without evidence, claim strong things about both terran as other races. They claim terran has the highest skill ceiling, requires the most mechanics, that zerg/protoss are a much easier race to play and require less practice et cetera. If you already say such things, please be a man and back up your statement as to why you think what you said is true. The main difference between protoss/zerg and Terran is that terran has several different buildings, with different add-ons. That is macro wise, so they have to tab between buildings more to get the same amount of units out. But then again zerg has to multi-rally their bases, so that when they are being assaulted, their reinforcements from a stray hatchery don't straight run into the enemy. Zerg has injects, terran has mules, protoss has chronoboost. It would seem rather awkward that a terran would be able to be so much better, purely because of "better mechanics", compared to the other two races. I love to play all 3 races at my humble plat level, and I can say without a doubt that yes, Terran is more skill requiring than zerg macro-wise. My main race is Zerg atm, and if it's not Terran it's only because my god am I awful at macroing, when I play Zerg I don't face this problem because I can just have 32 larva waiting for the repop or the tech switch, but when I play Terran I always miss unit cycles because I'm too busy trying to avoid fungals/storm/banelings and when finally I kill the army, I've got 5 rines and 2 marauders left at my base and with them 2k minerals and 1k5 gas, and I play probably 40% of my ladder games as Terran. I think it's safe to say that Terran is indeed more mechanics heavy than Zerg and maybe Protoss ( I don't play it enough to judge objectively ), maybe not requiring more skill, but definitely more mechanics which not eeryone has ( I don't ! )
Wow you're really bad at Terran then. After a fight, I almost always have an army waiting to where I point the spawn location, and a pretty significant army, not only "5 rines and 2 marauders left at my base and with them 2k minerals and 1k5 gas". Im not saying your opinion about Terran needing more skill is wrong or right, but the way you described how you macro as Terran is not the race's difficulty level's fault, but your own.
Actually, it is easier (for me at least) to macro as Terran while fighting since I do not need to move my screen when macroing units. For Zerg, I have to go to each hatchery to spawn larva; for Protoss, i have to move to a warp-in location (unless you have a warp prism or nearby pylon).
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Russian Federation748 Posts
You could also describe it with functions. Zerg and Protoss would be root function like f(x)=sqrt(x) and Terran would be a slowly growing function of the class e^x. The x-axis would be gameplay(or how well someone plays) and the y-axis would be skill. While a root function has limiting value, the terran function doesn´t.
What do you guys think about this statement? Is this true or just wrong?
A root function has a limiting value ?
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Answer is simple: Terrans have a very high skill-ceiling.
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On August 28 2012 19:09 Kyrillion wrote:Show nested quote +
You could also describe it with functions. Zerg and Protoss would be root function like f(x)=sqrt(x) and Terran would be a slowly growing function of the class e^x. The x-axis would be gameplay(or how well someone plays) and the y-axis would be skill. While a root function has limiting value, the terran function doesn´t.
What do you guys think about this statement? Is this true or just wrong?
A root function has a limiting value ? The only way to make it reasonable is considering the derivative. Taking the derivative of e^x is e^x, so getting better exponentially increases your level. The derivative of sqrt(x) goes with 1/sqrt(x), so the additional level per improvement slows down with your level.
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On August 28 2012 19:09 Kyrillion wrote:Show nested quote +
You could also describe it with functions. Zerg and Protoss would be root function like f(x)=sqrt(x) and Terran would be a slowly growing function of the class e^x. The x-axis would be gameplay(or how well someone plays) and the y-axis would be skill. While a root function has limiting value, the terran function doesn´t.
What do you guys think about this statement? Is this true or just wrong?
A root function has a limiting value ?
Sorry, what I said was incorrect and wrong. I shouldn´t have made a stupid and dumb mistake like this. Like the guy after you said, I meant to say that the root function grows very slowly for big x-values compared to the e^x function because their derivate.(Which calculates the slope at a certain point x of the original function f(x)) is different((1/sqrt(x)) and e^x) which means that at a certain point of skill, the room for improvement for the Terran player is much bigger compared to Zerg and Protoss.
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It's much more socially acceptable in Korea for one to spend much of his free time on Video Games.
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EPT
