|
On August 27 2012 02:24 KingLumps wrote:
Creating a build is no small feet, everyone wants to be the one to create the ultimate build which everyone uses, but it just doesn't happen that way. Its not even 'Pros make new builds' because there are plenty of pros who can't make a new build for their life, and for good reason. A good, viable build, especially a macro build (all ins are easier to make but usually also easier to stop) can really only be made by those who basically have a perfect understanding of the game and insane mechanics to pull off the build, and there are very very very few people who really understand the game to such an extent.
For the 99.99% we will be following builds or be designing horrible builds that aren't viable at top levels of play. Sad reality, but it is reality.
I actually disagree with you here. While it is very hard to create a brand spanking new opener, that's not what gets the most attention a lot of the time. Usually it's what a player does after than opening that gets attention. How they find out what is effective, especially with any timing based builds or all ins, is through all these crazy cheeses on the Korean server. As I said before, they find out timings that could well have just not been discovered before because no one has tried going for an attack with x composition at y time against z build.
EDIT: Just to elaborate on this point, if you look at a lot of BW matchups, they were mainly centred around a small core set of builds, which then developed depending on what you scouted from your opponent.
|
a "T is much harder to play than Z or P"-thread in disguise. 
|
Koreans have really good mechanics and multitasking.
Terran is the strongest race with perfect mechanics and multitasking. Compare that to Zerg, which is the strongest race with perfect decision making, or Protoss, which is the strongest race when it survives to reach the late game.
Terran's strengths mesh very well with Koreans' strength. So its not surprising that Korean Terrans are a level above their foreigner counterparts.
|
On August 27 2012 00:17 Bonneyi wrote:
ofcourse its not practice... i mean look at kas's profile.
Me myself have been living like a progammer during the summer :D, i mean 8 hours of playing a day, (from 9-23) with brakes tranings etc etc, and the biggest improvement was from going top plat to going mid diamond :D i mean come on there is something im doing terribly wrong, im justr trying to understand, what is it that we Europeans and Americans do differently.
I like this argumentation. Someone's just too dumb to learn from proper practice hitting a skillcap is a proof that practice is not the reason for being better.
I guess there's something all professionals over all sports are doing fundameltally wrong. You can't deny Koreans practice more AND more focussed than any foreigners. Hence they are better. This is mostly a game of practice. You do need talent, of course, that's why it's still possible to hit a personal skillcap. I wouldn't be a good professional chess player probably, no matter how much I practiced.
|
Of course Mana says the gap between foreign and korean terrans is bigger than between foreign and korean players of other races. Does that make it true? Do you think Kas believes this?
|
On August 27 2012 02:07 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 01:57 Acritter wrote:On August 27 2012 01:51 kollin wrote:
I think the reason that they have lots of different cheeses that take a while to bleed on to the European or American server is because a lot of the time pros will try out weird cheesy builds to try and improve their micro as well as find out potential timings that can be exploited in their opponents build. 100% agree. Terran as a race has the largest arsenal of cheese and the strongest cheese. Protoss and Zerg players on NA/EU don't have to worry about dealing with that cheese, because the Terrans over here don't think it's a good idea for whatever reason. Therefore, we can use a ton of greedy builds and score EZPZ wins because we don't have to think about scouting etc. as much. It's really easy to beat a player if you know what they're going to be doing ahead of time, and on NA/EU, P and Z players know that the Terrans aren't going to be doing much beyond macro games and a couple of simple pressure or all-in builds. If foreign Terrans started using cheese more, then they'd be able to score more wins versus P and T. Korea is the cheesiest server. Korea is the strongest server. This is not entirely coincidence. On other ladders, attacking before 3 bases reaps a lot of BM. On KR, it's common and not as badly seen. I think this mentality has a lot to do with Korean success - and early aggression benefits terran way more than protoss or zerg. Also, terran has a way higher skill ceiling and rewards skill a lot more ; if you're better at terran than your terran friend, the difference will be a lot more obvious than with a similar protoss or zerg skill gap. Think about how much stuff terrans have to do, and how cost effective they can be.
For the first part: completely agree. People take "macro play" way too seriously, and it ends up hurting their entire game. For the second part: we'll have to wait and see.
|
Actually I met a couple pros in KR dia too - the dude raped the shit out of me even tho I had ten tanks containing his nat (hidden expo, perfect macro pure marine), then later revealed hes actually from IM.
KR terran mechanical is also disturbingly strong, so personally, I feel its not just the micro or the insane amount of builds, its also the macro the korean terrans from plat up have that makes them so scary.
On the other hand, there are a LOT of terrans in KR who should be in masters but are simply stuck in diamond due to A) TvT is disgusting and happens half the time, B) huge gap between many of the actual masters needed to beat to be promoted.
I do want to whine a bit that the amount of cheese/rushes KR protosses and zergs do in KR might be a factor too...Ive been flirting with being promoted for a while but its just not happening. I dont practice enough, and my mindset is fucked
|
Koreans practice much more than foreigners.
Terran needs much more practice than zerg and protoss.
There's your answer.
|
Its quite simple actually, in the early days of Starcraft 2 Terran was unquestionably the best, most imba race. Now when all the B-teamers switched over they for the most part picked terran because they logically wanted to win the most. Now because of this, a lot of the more mechanically proficent players played Terran in Korea and Terran being all mechanics explains the better results.
You see the same trend currently with Kespa players switching over. A large majority of them are picking protoss because its easier to learn and is generally considered the best race in Korea (please dont turn this into a balance discusssion.) and they want to win as soon as possible.
|
IMO terran has a play style that require the most emphasis on mechanics, which takes tons of practice
Other races, the emphasis is more on decision making, for example, zerg deciding to make units or drones in early/mid game, terran not much deciding, ALWAYS make units and scvs, but is mechanically hard to do consistently
Therefore I dont see many foreigner Ts becoming really competitive any time soon
|
On August 27 2012 00:04 GregMandel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 23:54 ma70 wrote:
Koreans practice more. That's it. Of course, there are just some with natural talent. Of course they do, but look at the difference between EU Z and P and KR Z and P, now look at the EU T and at the KR T, I mean on one side you got guys able to compete consistently against the top KR ( Stephano / NaNiwa ) and on the other side you've got plenty of average Terrans, some way better but not showing results ( Kas i'm looking at you ) and then only 1 Terran that actually wins stuff, Thorzain. There has to be something else than just practice because I doubt the Terrans practice less than the Zergs and Protoss ( Kas 13k5 games on the ladder kekeke ), maybe it's in the mentality or because of the mechanics required that are too much, but there's something
Kas play 13k games vs non-Koreans; the fact that Koreans practice more means they are also practicing against more practiced opponents.
|
On August 27 2012 03:06 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 02:07 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 27 2012 01:57 Acritter wrote:On August 27 2012 01:51 kollin wrote:
I think the reason that they have lots of different cheeses that take a while to bleed on to the European or American server is because a lot of the time pros will try out weird cheesy builds to try and improve their micro as well as find out potential timings that can be exploited in their opponents build. 100% agree. Terran as a race has the largest arsenal of cheese and the strongest cheese. Protoss and Zerg players on NA/EU don't have to worry about dealing with that cheese, because the Terrans over here don't think it's a good idea for whatever reason. Therefore, we can use a ton of greedy builds and score EZPZ wins because we don't have to think about scouting etc. as much. It's really easy to beat a player if you know what they're going to be doing ahead of time, and on NA/EU, P and Z players know that the Terrans aren't going to be doing much beyond macro games and a couple of simple pressure or all-in builds. If foreign Terrans started using cheese more, then they'd be able to score more wins versus P and T. Korea is the cheesiest server. Korea is the strongest server. This is not entirely coincidence. On other ladders, attacking before 3 bases reaps a lot of BM. On KR, it's common and not as badly seen. I think this mentality has a lot to do with Korean success - and early aggression benefits terran way more than protoss or zerg. Also, terran has a way higher skill ceiling and rewards skill a lot more ; if you're better at terran than your terran friend, the difference will be a lot more obvious than with a similar protoss or zerg skill gap. Think about how much stuff terrans have to do, and how cost effective they can be. For the first part: completely agree. People take "macro play" way too seriously, and it ends up hurting their entire game. For the second part: we'll have to wait and see.
No, they don't take macro play too seriously. All the great players are macro players. People try to find excuses for their bad macro play, when they say they don't mix in enough allins.
But just look at the facts: the very best players of the world are all known for macroing superhard, while putting on enough aggression, regardless of the race they play.
Taeja doesn't win because he has incredible micro or "knows every build", he wins because regardless of what he plays (if he is not hardcore cheesing), he builts many bases while working with the units he ends up with. DRG, MVP, MKP, MC, Nestea, Oz. Just name any toplevel player. They are all known for incredible macro play, while they basically never let their opponent breath too hard. It's the difference between "cross your fingers and hope you get away with it"-macro and refined builds that can branch into defense or offense depending on what your opponent does, that makes those players so good.
That's not to say cheese is bad, but the reason you want to cheese is, to find out, up to which point it is actually still a cheese and at which point you are just starting to walk the macro route while you punish "finger-cross"-opponents.
|
Not sure whoever posted it first but damn....
I mean i just thought of it now. I dont have any allins/cheeses planned for any matchup. I talked to a friend of mine about this and he said the same,he does mostly the same builds most of the time, with little adjustments. Maybe it would be a really good idea to actually go and learn a few allins and cheeses, if more and more people started playing cheesy in Europe and in NA zergs and protosses would not be as comfortable as they are at the moment.
|
On August 27 2012 04:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 03:06 Acritter wrote:On August 27 2012 02:07 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 27 2012 01:57 Acritter wrote:On August 27 2012 01:51 kollin wrote:
I think the reason that they have lots of different cheeses that take a while to bleed on to the European or American server is because a lot of the time pros will try out weird cheesy builds to try and improve their micro as well as find out potential timings that can be exploited in their opponents build. 100% agree. Terran as a race has the largest arsenal of cheese and the strongest cheese. Protoss and Zerg players on NA/EU don't have to worry about dealing with that cheese, because the Terrans over here don't think it's a good idea for whatever reason. Therefore, we can use a ton of greedy builds and score EZPZ wins because we don't have to think about scouting etc. as much. It's really easy to beat a player if you know what they're going to be doing ahead of time, and on NA/EU, P and Z players know that the Terrans aren't going to be doing much beyond macro games and a couple of simple pressure or all-in builds. If foreign Terrans started using cheese more, then they'd be able to score more wins versus P and T. Korea is the cheesiest server. Korea is the strongest server. This is not entirely coincidence. On other ladders, attacking before 3 bases reaps a lot of BM. On KR, it's common and not as badly seen. I think this mentality has a lot to do with Korean success - and early aggression benefits terran way more than protoss or zerg. Also, terran has a way higher skill ceiling and rewards skill a lot more ; if you're better at terran than your terran friend, the difference will be a lot more obvious than with a similar protoss or zerg skill gap. Think about how much stuff terrans have to do, and how cost effective they can be. For the first part: completely agree. People take "macro play" way too seriously, and it ends up hurting their entire game. For the second part: we'll have to wait and see. No, they don't take macro play too seriously. All the great players are macro players. People try to find excuses for their bad macro play, when they say they don't mix in enough allins. But just look at the facts: the very best players of the world are all known for macroing superhard, while putting on enough aggression, regardless of the race they play. Taeja doesn't win because he has incredible micro or "knows every build", he wins because regardless of what he plays (if he is not hardcore cheesing), he builts many bases while working with the units he ends up with. DRG, MVP, MKP, MC, Nestea, Oz. Just name any toplevel player. They are all known for incredible macro play, while they basically never let their opponent breath too hard. It's the difference between "cross your fingers and hope you get away with it"-macro and refined builds that can branch into defense or offense depending on what your opponent does, that makes those players so good. That's not to say cheese is bad, but the reason you want to cheese is, to find out, up to which point it is actually still a cheese and at which point you are just starting to walk the macro route while you punish "finger-cross"-opponents.
In fact no. For instance MKP is known as a player that would go hardcore macro (14cc) or a super cheesy gas first marouder hellion allin.
|
On August 27 2012 04:24 Bonneyi wrote:
Not sure whoever posted it first but damn....
I mean i just thought of it now. I dont have any allins/cheeses planned for any matchup. I talked to a friend of mine about this and he said the same,he does mostly the same builds most of the time, with little adjustments. Maybe it would be a really good idea to actually go and learn a few allins and cheeses, if more and more people started playing cheesy in Europe and in NA zergs and protosses would not be as comfortable as they are at the moment.
You see there you're allining for all of the wrong reasons. Unless you have pretty flawless macro there is no need to. The only reason top koreans ever do it is to improve micro and find timings in their opponents builds. There literally isn't any point, because you tend to stop caring about ladder ranking when you are on IM
|
On August 27 2012 02:39 Black Gun wrote:a "T is much harder to play than Z or P"-thread in disguise.
Oh of course.
Even when terrans were "op" though foreign terrans did always struggle and there weren't many like there were in korea.
Dunno koreans just practice more, and I am guessing since bw was so big over there lots of players that play sc2 played bw and thus have good control/macro as it's a lot easier to macro in sc2 compared to bw.
|
More practice/harder work = more skill.
That's the core of it, as far as i can see :D
|
Mechanics mechanics mechanics. Thats all it is.
|
On August 27 2012 01:42 Fencar wrote:
Two things that I can tell:
1. They practice more and better. You can list cause-effect all you like, this is what it comes down to.
2. Their mentality is better. Remember how Terran is/was called the 'comeback race'? Replace 'Terran' with 'Korean'.
[D]New Race: A Korean Korean.
I dunno why but I lol'd so hard by this... Anyways, as a terran who used to be masters in korea before moving back to Sweden, it's pretty simple actually. Korean terrans are just a lot better. And so is protoss, and so is zerg. The big difference is that they are more knowledgable about the game, they know what timings to hit and what their opponents are doing. Here in EU you face a lot of blind greed, where people don't deny scouting, or do anything clever but it works out anyways because it's so damn stupid. Koreans are more predictable, games play out more normal, scouting is more important and so are timings. There are people who get to masters in EU on cheese alone, who are outright shit at the game but has this one buildorder that works really well because others go with the meta more and don't scout enough. And koreans have better mechanics, you can't get into korean master on builds and decisionmaking alone. You need to have more stuff.
One more thing, I feel as if the Koreans masters actually play more, as in average player, and thusly they face more experienced players in turn. I mean, some europeans play sick amounts of games, but there's such a huge difference in the skill of same rated europeans that they can't get the same consistent practice out.
Oh and terran needs to be the aggressor which is inherently more difficult to do, as in requires more game-sense to make it work, do damage, seize map control, know when to back off etc. Defending is comparatively easy as long as you figure out what's coming. EU toss and zerg just needs to map out their normal BO's, have an all-in or two that have a high success chance of doing damage, defend and/or punish aggression and win late-game where they are at an advantage.
tldr: former korean master, the difference is in the average ability of their opponents and the standard of players above gold, this forces the overall level up
|
koreans have better mechanics across the board. simple as that
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
