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Somehow this is now about saving those poor overworked KeSPA b-teamers. LOL
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On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no.
who the hell passes up an opportunity to play in an osl qualifier
even players like reach and tossgirl who was had absolutely 0 chance of making it through showed up to every single one
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On August 27 2012 00:16 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. who the hell passes up an opportunity to play in an osl qualifier even players like reach and tossgirl who was had absolutely 0 chance of making it through showed up to every single one
Yes and the ESF wants all Kespa players to be allowed to participate at GSL too. But Kespa forbids it with the reasoning of "schedule problems".
And that sounds wrong to me.
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On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no.
eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand.
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On August 27 2012 00:10 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:09 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:04 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 26 2012 23:55 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 23:53 chisuri wrote:On August 26 2012 23:45 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 23:38 chisuri wrote:On August 26 2012 22:40 xBillehx wrote:On August 26 2012 22:27 Derrida wrote:
Idra says quite a few things about this on his interview with Hotbid, check it out guys. I completely agree with him. To make it easier for people IdrA's KeSPA talk is here: Not quite sure what the Houston Rockets guy said, didn't watch MLG. Those Western guys know nothing about Asian culture. No wonder they failed. That's absolutely normal conduct in Japan, SK, China, Vietnam, Singapore... We work our asses off. Too bad hah? Europa and America are so much better. Like those countries didn't start a global crisis and have no sovereign debt at all. If they want to stay on the high horse, fine. But don't call us slave. And don't come to free us. We saw how that turned out. And we saw the consequences. I agree, not getting paid the minimum wage and over working people is the sign of a good country. Strange that koreans themselves don't seem to like kespa. If you are not doing well don't expect to get paid. I thought it was the same in America and Europe? Those guys have all the rights to quit the moment they think it is unfair. Go out and do other jobs. Or don't even enter professional gaming at the first place. They knew what were awaiting them. But they still decided to compete for the top slots because that are what real men do. And I repeat, that's normal here. Don't like it? It's up to you but don't judge us if we are fine with it. And if you take what Korean netizens said then you don't know them well enough. Try to look for Korean showbiz news and you will see how the media and the netizens in Korea treat celebrities and how they hate life in general. Are you seriously saying that it's okay for people to work 13.5 hours a day 7 days a week and not get paid? I just know that you have never put in that amount of work into your job, other wise you wouldn't be making such a retarded claim. And the players aren't fine with it, which is why people like Boxer and Stork talk about having a players union, and the players that got out of that situation all say they never want to go back. Lots of people do that when they are trying to do something they dream of, artists, musicians, showmen etc. Even people trying to start a business often end up working way beyond 'normal' hours, and end up with nothing but debt to show for it. It's not like they are forced to do it, it's what they choose to do. There's been a long time for players to do something about their conditions, and those who really couldn't stand it, switched to SC2 on release. But for all the talk about how bad it is, plenty of them are fine with doing it; they are fine with working way beyond 'normal' to try and become best at what they do. It's funny how every time someone posts a blog about 'I wanna go pro' or along these lines, all of TL rallies around it saying how it's expected to work much more and much harder than in a 'normal' job to have any chance of success - but suddenly if you do it under a corporation that guarantees you won't at least starve or something, then it's bad? Also, you're citing Stork being 'not fine' with it, but where in his interviews has he said that the player's conditions are awful and they all hate KeSPA? All he said is that he is unhappy with the hybrid proleague format, and that decisions are made sometimes without player's input - both of these are things that could be improved, but it's hardly the same as saying, 'I hate KeSPA they treat us like shit'. The difference is that someone working 70 hours a week is that they will then own a fucking company, some b-teamer working 70 hours a week so that flash can play better will do nothing but increase the latters pay check. And I would never ever tell someone its a smart idea to try become a pro gamer. Or they will end up going bankrupt and lose their house and hang themselves. What, you seriously think every startup ends up being Facebook? Not every B-teamer ends up quitting, some of them actually, you know, get good - look at By.Sun for the most obvious and most recent example. Of course you wouldn't tell someone it's a smart idea to become a progamer - just like no sane parent would tell their child it's a good idea to try to become a rockstar, or to try to start a business venture without having backup assets - but people who truly want to do it, go for it anyway - it's a decision everyone has to make for themselves. Not everyone in life gets where they are by playing it safe and doing the sensible thing, and the unfortunate reality is that not everyone gets to be a star when they grow up. But then again, it's not like kids in eSF teams have it any better, so what is your point really? Oh, but they get to decide whether they wanna play in X tournament or not, clearly that makes it all the better. Yeah, just go look at sc2earnings site and decide for yourself, who has the better chances here. The business point I made was stupid I agree, but in the case of people having almost nothing to show then yes choice makes a gigantic difference. Tbh that really wasn't what I was arguing, I was arguing that the apparently eastern culture as presented by chisuri just wasn't realistic.
Actually, he's right. Younger people work insane hours pretty much across all industries there; 6 day work weeks with 10 hour days and extra overtime that isn't really optional is pretty normal at least in Korea. Vacation time? Maybe when you're a CEO or at least mid-level manager yourself.
Anyway, who are you all to decide whether the way KeSPA runs their teams is good or not? The way they do it obviously works, the success of BW can speak for itself, as does their rate of improvement in SC2 currently. You can start criticizing them if after a year they aren't the top contenders for every tournament they enter, but so far - it seems like they are on the right track. Whether they are being 'oppressed' or not, the players can decide for themselves. In the meantime, eSF and the rest should focus on practising their asses off instead of trying to throw rocks into other people's houses.
There's literally no reason for KeSPA to be trying to push GomTV out of the market or whatever; and there's plenty of internal reasons for them to avoid playing in the current GSL, so...
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On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no.
Basically, I'd support the ESF here if Blizzard allowed people to host LAN tournaments outside of BNet. But until they don't, then KeSPA has just as much a right to be a monopolist as Blizzard does. And if ESF only focuses on one side rather than the other, then they're essentially behaving as proxies for Blizzard.
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On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand.
Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to:
now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom.
which is wrong.
eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc.
But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions.
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On August 27 2012 00:20 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Basically, I'd support the ESF here if Blizzard allowed people to host LAN tournaments outside of BNet. But until they don't, then KeSPA has just as much a right to be a monopolist as Blizzard does. And if ESF only focuses on one side rather than the other, then they're essentially behaving as proxies for Blizzard.
how is that at all relevant to this discussion
the lan issue is thanks to this country called china who pirated easily a few million of copies of warcraft 3 dota and is bringing up it is a complete strawman
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On August 27 2012 00:20 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:10 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:09 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:04 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 26 2012 23:55 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 23:53 chisuri wrote:On August 26 2012 23:45 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 23:38 chisuri wrote:On August 26 2012 22:40 xBillehx wrote:
[quote]
To make it easier for people IdrA's KeSPA talk is here:
[quote]
Not quite sure what the Houston Rockets guy said, didn't watch MLG. Those Western guys know nothing about Asian culture. No wonder they failed. That's absolutely normal conduct in Japan, SK, China, Vietnam, Singapore... We work our asses off. Too bad hah? Europa and America are so much better. Like those countries didn't start a global crisis and have no sovereign debt at all. If they want to stay on the high horse, fine. But don't call us slave. And don't come to free us. We saw how that turned out. And we saw the consequences. I agree, not getting paid the minimum wage and over working people is the sign of a good country. Strange that koreans themselves don't seem to like kespa. If you are not doing well don't expect to get paid. I thought it was the same in America and Europe? Those guys have all the rights to quit the moment they think it is unfair. Go out and do other jobs. Or don't even enter professional gaming at the first place. They knew what were awaiting them. But they still decided to compete for the top slots because that are what real men do. And I repeat, that's normal here. Don't like it? It's up to you but don't judge us if we are fine with it. And if you take what Korean netizens said then you don't know them well enough. Try to look for Korean showbiz news and you will see how the media and the netizens in Korea treat celebrities and how they hate life in general. Are you seriously saying that it's okay for people to work 13.5 hours a day 7 days a week and not get paid? I just know that you have never put in that amount of work into your job, other wise you wouldn't be making such a retarded claim. And the players aren't fine with it, which is why people like Boxer and Stork talk about having a players union, and the players that got out of that situation all say they never want to go back. Lots of people do that when they are trying to do something they dream of, artists, musicians, showmen etc. Even people trying to start a business often end up working way beyond 'normal' hours, and end up with nothing but debt to show for it. It's not like they are forced to do it, it's what they choose to do. There's been a long time for players to do something about their conditions, and those who really couldn't stand it, switched to SC2 on release. But for all the talk about how bad it is, plenty of them are fine with doing it; they are fine with working way beyond 'normal' to try and become best at what they do. It's funny how every time someone posts a blog about 'I wanna go pro' or along these lines, all of TL rallies around it saying how it's expected to work much more and much harder than in a 'normal' job to have any chance of success - but suddenly if you do it under a corporation that guarantees you won't at least starve or something, then it's bad? Also, you're citing Stork being 'not fine' with it, but where in his interviews has he said that the player's conditions are awful and they all hate KeSPA? All he said is that he is unhappy with the hybrid proleague format, and that decisions are made sometimes without player's input - both of these are things that could be improved, but it's hardly the same as saying, 'I hate KeSPA they treat us like shit'. The difference is that someone working 70 hours a week is that they will then own a fucking company, some b-teamer working 70 hours a week so that flash can play better will do nothing but increase the latters pay check. And I would never ever tell someone its a smart idea to try become a pro gamer. Or they will end up going bankrupt and lose their house and hang themselves. What, you seriously think every startup ends up being Facebook? Not every B-teamer ends up quitting, some of them actually, you know, get good - look at By.Sun for the most obvious and most recent example. Of course you wouldn't tell someone it's a smart idea to become a progamer - just like no sane parent would tell their child it's a good idea to try to become a rockstar, or to try to start a business venture without having backup assets - but people who truly want to do it, go for it anyway - it's a decision everyone has to make for themselves. Not everyone in life gets where they are by playing it safe and doing the sensible thing, and the unfortunate reality is that not everyone gets to be a star when they grow up. But then again, it's not like kids in eSF teams have it any better, so what is your point really? Oh, but they get to decide whether they wanna play in X tournament or not, clearly that makes it all the better. Yeah, just go look at sc2earnings site and decide for yourself, who has the better chances here. The business point I made was stupid I agree, but in the case of people having almost nothing to show then yes choice makes a gigantic difference. Tbh that really wasn't what I was arguing, I was arguing that the apparently eastern culture as presented by chisuri just wasn't realistic. Actually, he's right. Younger people work insane hours pretty much across all industries there; 6 day work weeks with 10 hour days and extra overtime that isn't really optional is pretty normal at least in Korea. Vacation time? Maybe when you're a CEO or at least mid-level manager yourself. Anyway, who are you all to decide whether the way KeSPA runs their teams is good or not? The way they do it obviously works, the success of BW can speak for itself, as does their rate of improvement in SC2 currently. You can start criticizing them if after a year they aren't the top contenders for every tournament they enter, but so far - it seems like they are on the right track. Whether they are being 'oppressed' or not, the players can decide for themselves. In the meantime, eSF and the rest should focus on practising their asses off instead of trying to throw rocks into other people's houses. There's literally no reason for KeSPA to be trying to push GomTV out of the market or whatever; and there's plenty of internal reasons for them to avoid playing in the current GSL, so...
People working 10 hour days isn't unique to asia as strange as it might sound, but people working 10 hour days and not getting paid anything more then lodging as a common occurrence is a bit of a stretch to me but w/e.
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On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no.
Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane.
Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds.
Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock.
Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players.
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On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand. Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to: which is wrong. eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc. But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions.
You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
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On August 27 2012 00:23 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:20 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:10 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:09 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:04 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 26 2012 23:55 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 23:53 chisuri wrote:On August 26 2012 23:45 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 23:38 chisuri wrote:
[quote]
Those Western guys know nothing about Asian culture. No wonder they failed. That's absolutely normal conduct in Japan, SK, China, Vietnam, Singapore... We work our asses off. Too bad hah? Europa and America are so much better. Like those countries didn't start a global crisis and have no sovereign debt at all. If they want to stay on the high horse, fine. But don't call us slave. And don't come to free us. We saw how that turned out. And we saw the consequences. I agree, not getting paid the minimum wage and over working people is the sign of a good country. Strange that koreans themselves don't seem to like kespa. If you are not doing well don't expect to get paid. I thought it was the same in America and Europe? Those guys have all the rights to quit the moment they think it is unfair. Go out and do other jobs. Or don't even enter professional gaming at the first place. They knew what were awaiting them. But they still decided to compete for the top slots because that are what real men do. And I repeat, that's normal here. Don't like it? It's up to you but don't judge us if we are fine with it. And if you take what Korean netizens said then you don't know them well enough. Try to look for Korean showbiz news and you will see how the media and the netizens in Korea treat celebrities and how they hate life in general. Are you seriously saying that it's okay for people to work 13.5 hours a day 7 days a week and not get paid? I just know that you have never put in that amount of work into your job, other wise you wouldn't be making such a retarded claim. And the players aren't fine with it, which is why people like Boxer and Stork talk about having a players union, and the players that got out of that situation all say they never want to go back. Lots of people do that when they are trying to do something they dream of, artists, musicians, showmen etc. Even people trying to start a business often end up working way beyond 'normal' hours, and end up with nothing but debt to show for it. It's not like they are forced to do it, it's what they choose to do. There's been a long time for players to do something about their conditions, and those who really couldn't stand it, switched to SC2 on release. But for all the talk about how bad it is, plenty of them are fine with doing it; they are fine with working way beyond 'normal' to try and become best at what they do. It's funny how every time someone posts a blog about 'I wanna go pro' or along these lines, all of TL rallies around it saying how it's expected to work much more and much harder than in a 'normal' job to have any chance of success - but suddenly if you do it under a corporation that guarantees you won't at least starve or something, then it's bad? Also, you're citing Stork being 'not fine' with it, but where in his interviews has he said that the player's conditions are awful and they all hate KeSPA? All he said is that he is unhappy with the hybrid proleague format, and that decisions are made sometimes without player's input - both of these are things that could be improved, but it's hardly the same as saying, 'I hate KeSPA they treat us like shit'. The difference is that someone working 70 hours a week is that they will then own a fucking company, some b-teamer working 70 hours a week so that flash can play better will do nothing but increase the latters pay check. And I would never ever tell someone its a smart idea to try become a pro gamer. Or they will end up going bankrupt and lose their house and hang themselves. What, you seriously think every startup ends up being Facebook? Not every B-teamer ends up quitting, some of them actually, you know, get good - look at By.Sun for the most obvious and most recent example. Of course you wouldn't tell someone it's a smart idea to become a progamer - just like no sane parent would tell their child it's a good idea to try to become a rockstar, or to try to start a business venture without having backup assets - but people who truly want to do it, go for it anyway - it's a decision everyone has to make for themselves. Not everyone in life gets where they are by playing it safe and doing the sensible thing, and the unfortunate reality is that not everyone gets to be a star when they grow up. But then again, it's not like kids in eSF teams have it any better, so what is your point really? Oh, but they get to decide whether they wanna play in X tournament or not, clearly that makes it all the better. Yeah, just go look at sc2earnings site and decide for yourself, who has the better chances here. The business point I made was stupid I agree, but in the case of people having almost nothing to show then yes choice makes a gigantic difference. Tbh that really wasn't what I was arguing, I was arguing that the apparently eastern culture as presented by chisuri just wasn't realistic. Actually, he's right. Younger people work insane hours pretty much across all industries there; 6 day work weeks with 10 hour days and extra overtime that isn't really optional is pretty normal at least in Korea. Vacation time? Maybe when you're a CEO or at least mid-level manager yourself. Anyway, who are you all to decide whether the way KeSPA runs their teams is good or not? The way they do it obviously works, the success of BW can speak for itself, as does their rate of improvement in SC2 currently. You can start criticizing them if after a year they aren't the top contenders for every tournament they enter, but so far - it seems like they are on the right track. Whether they are being 'oppressed' or not, the players can decide for themselves. In the meantime, eSF and the rest should focus on practising their asses off instead of trying to throw rocks into other people's houses. There's literally no reason for KeSPA to be trying to push GomTV out of the market or whatever; and there's plenty of internal reasons for them to avoid playing in the current GSL, so... People working 10 hour days isn't unique to asia as strange as it might sound, but people working 10 hour days and not getting paid anything more then lodging as a common occurrence is a bit of a stretch to me but w/e.
Choose your side carefully.
What you really should do is to complain about those GOM teams as the salary and benefit in Kespa > GOM teams.
Why aren't you doing so?
I call factionalism on this one.
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On August 27 2012 00:23 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:20 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:10 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:09 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:04 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 26 2012 23:55 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 23:53 chisuri wrote:On August 26 2012 23:45 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 23:38 chisuri wrote:
[quote]
Those Western guys know nothing about Asian culture. No wonder they failed. That's absolutely normal conduct in Japan, SK, China, Vietnam, Singapore... We work our asses off. Too bad hah? Europa and America are so much better. Like those countries didn't start a global crisis and have no sovereign debt at all. If they want to stay on the high horse, fine. But don't call us slave. And don't come to free us. We saw how that turned out. And we saw the consequences. I agree, not getting paid the minimum wage and over working people is the sign of a good country. Strange that koreans themselves don't seem to like kespa. If you are not doing well don't expect to get paid. I thought it was the same in America and Europe? Those guys have all the rights to quit the moment they think it is unfair. Go out and do other jobs. Or don't even enter professional gaming at the first place. They knew what were awaiting them. But they still decided to compete for the top slots because that are what real men do. And I repeat, that's normal here. Don't like it? It's up to you but don't judge us if we are fine with it. And if you take what Korean netizens said then you don't know them well enough. Try to look for Korean showbiz news and you will see how the media and the netizens in Korea treat celebrities and how they hate life in general. Are you seriously saying that it's okay for people to work 13.5 hours a day 7 days a week and not get paid? I just know that you have never put in that amount of work into your job, other wise you wouldn't be making such a retarded claim. And the players aren't fine with it, which is why people like Boxer and Stork talk about having a players union, and the players that got out of that situation all say they never want to go back. Lots of people do that when they are trying to do something they dream of, artists, musicians, showmen etc. Even people trying to start a business often end up working way beyond 'normal' hours, and end up with nothing but debt to show for it. It's not like they are forced to do it, it's what they choose to do. There's been a long time for players to do something about their conditions, and those who really couldn't stand it, switched to SC2 on release. But for all the talk about how bad it is, plenty of them are fine with doing it; they are fine with working way beyond 'normal' to try and become best at what they do. It's funny how every time someone posts a blog about 'I wanna go pro' or along these lines, all of TL rallies around it saying how it's expected to work much more and much harder than in a 'normal' job to have any chance of success - but suddenly if you do it under a corporation that guarantees you won't at least starve or something, then it's bad? Also, you're citing Stork being 'not fine' with it, but where in his interviews has he said that the player's conditions are awful and they all hate KeSPA? All he said is that he is unhappy with the hybrid proleague format, and that decisions are made sometimes without player's input - both of these are things that could be improved, but it's hardly the same as saying, 'I hate KeSPA they treat us like shit'. The difference is that someone working 70 hours a week is that they will then own a fucking company, some b-teamer working 70 hours a week so that flash can play better will do nothing but increase the latters pay check. And I would never ever tell someone its a smart idea to try become a pro gamer. Or they will end up going bankrupt and lose their house and hang themselves. What, you seriously think every startup ends up being Facebook? Not every B-teamer ends up quitting, some of them actually, you know, get good - look at By.Sun for the most obvious and most recent example. Of course you wouldn't tell someone it's a smart idea to become a progamer - just like no sane parent would tell their child it's a good idea to try to become a rockstar, or to try to start a business venture without having backup assets - but people who truly want to do it, go for it anyway - it's a decision everyone has to make for themselves. Not everyone in life gets where they are by playing it safe and doing the sensible thing, and the unfortunate reality is that not everyone gets to be a star when they grow up. But then again, it's not like kids in eSF teams have it any better, so what is your point really? Oh, but they get to decide whether they wanna play in X tournament or not, clearly that makes it all the better. Yeah, just go look at sc2earnings site and decide for yourself, who has the better chances here. The business point I made was stupid I agree, but in the case of people having almost nothing to show then yes choice makes a gigantic difference. Tbh that really wasn't what I was arguing, I was arguing that the apparently eastern culture as presented by chisuri just wasn't realistic. Actually, he's right. Younger people work insane hours pretty much across all industries there; 6 day work weeks with 10 hour days and extra overtime that isn't really optional is pretty normal at least in Korea. Vacation time? Maybe when you're a CEO or at least mid-level manager yourself. Anyway, who are you all to decide whether the way KeSPA runs their teams is good or not? The way they do it obviously works, the success of BW can speak for itself, as does their rate of improvement in SC2 currently. You can start criticizing them if after a year they aren't the top contenders for every tournament they enter, but so far - it seems like they are on the right track. Whether they are being 'oppressed' or not, the players can decide for themselves. In the meantime, eSF and the rest should focus on practising their asses off instead of trying to throw rocks into other people's houses. There's literally no reason for KeSPA to be trying to push GomTV out of the market or whatever; and there's plenty of internal reasons for them to avoid playing in the current GSL, so... People working 10 hour days isn't unique to asia as strange as it might sound, but people working 10 hour days and not getting paid anything more then lodging as a common occurrence is a bit of a stretch to me but w/e.
It's not that uncommon in creative industries, or for internships - and that's what being a B-teamer basically is. It's not like you become a B-teamer as a career choice, you do it with a view to 'make it big'.
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On August 27 2012 00:26 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:23 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:20 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:10 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:09 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:04 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 26 2012 23:55 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 23:53 chisuri wrote:On August 26 2012 23:45 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
I agree, not getting paid the minimum wage and over working people is the sign of a good country. Strange that koreans themselves don't seem to like kespa. If you are not doing well don't expect to get paid. I thought it was the same in America and Europe? Those guys have all the rights to quit the moment they think it is unfair. Go out and do other jobs. Or don't even enter professional gaming at the first place. They knew what were awaiting them. But they still decided to compete for the top slots because that are what real men do. And I repeat, that's normal here. Don't like it? It's up to you but don't judge us if we are fine with it. And if you take what Korean netizens said then you don't know them well enough. Try to look for Korean showbiz news and you will see how the media and the netizens in Korea treat celebrities and how they hate life in general. Are you seriously saying that it's okay for people to work 13.5 hours a day 7 days a week and not get paid? I just know that you have never put in that amount of work into your job, other wise you wouldn't be making such a retarded claim. And the players aren't fine with it, which is why people like Boxer and Stork talk about having a players union, and the players that got out of that situation all say they never want to go back. Lots of people do that when they are trying to do something they dream of, artists, musicians, showmen etc. Even people trying to start a business often end up working way beyond 'normal' hours, and end up with nothing but debt to show for it. It's not like they are forced to do it, it's what they choose to do. There's been a long time for players to do something about their conditions, and those who really couldn't stand it, switched to SC2 on release. But for all the talk about how bad it is, plenty of them are fine with doing it; they are fine with working way beyond 'normal' to try and become best at what they do. It's funny how every time someone posts a blog about 'I wanna go pro' or along these lines, all of TL rallies around it saying how it's expected to work much more and much harder than in a 'normal' job to have any chance of success - but suddenly if you do it under a corporation that guarantees you won't at least starve or something, then it's bad? Also, you're citing Stork being 'not fine' with it, but where in his interviews has he said that the player's conditions are awful and they all hate KeSPA? All he said is that he is unhappy with the hybrid proleague format, and that decisions are made sometimes without player's input - both of these are things that could be improved, but it's hardly the same as saying, 'I hate KeSPA they treat us like shit'. The difference is that someone working 70 hours a week is that they will then own a fucking company, some b-teamer working 70 hours a week so that flash can play better will do nothing but increase the latters pay check. And I would never ever tell someone its a smart idea to try become a pro gamer. Or they will end up going bankrupt and lose their house and hang themselves. What, you seriously think every startup ends up being Facebook? Not every B-teamer ends up quitting, some of them actually, you know, get good - look at By.Sun for the most obvious and most recent example. Of course you wouldn't tell someone it's a smart idea to become a progamer - just like no sane parent would tell their child it's a good idea to try to become a rockstar, or to try to start a business venture without having backup assets - but people who truly want to do it, go for it anyway - it's a decision everyone has to make for themselves. Not everyone in life gets where they are by playing it safe and doing the sensible thing, and the unfortunate reality is that not everyone gets to be a star when they grow up. But then again, it's not like kids in eSF teams have it any better, so what is your point really? Oh, but they get to decide whether they wanna play in X tournament or not, clearly that makes it all the better. Yeah, just go look at sc2earnings site and decide for yourself, who has the better chances here. The business point I made was stupid I agree, but in the case of people having almost nothing to show then yes choice makes a gigantic difference. Tbh that really wasn't what I was arguing, I was arguing that the apparently eastern culture as presented by chisuri just wasn't realistic. Actually, he's right. Younger people work insane hours pretty much across all industries there; 6 day work weeks with 10 hour days and extra overtime that isn't really optional is pretty normal at least in Korea. Vacation time? Maybe when you're a CEO or at least mid-level manager yourself. Anyway, who are you all to decide whether the way KeSPA runs their teams is good or not? The way they do it obviously works, the success of BW can speak for itself, as does their rate of improvement in SC2 currently. You can start criticizing them if after a year they aren't the top contenders for every tournament they enter, but so far - it seems like they are on the right track. Whether they are being 'oppressed' or not, the players can decide for themselves. In the meantime, eSF and the rest should focus on practising their asses off instead of trying to throw rocks into other people's houses. There's literally no reason for KeSPA to be trying to push GomTV out of the market or whatever; and there's plenty of internal reasons for them to avoid playing in the current GSL, so... People working 10 hour days isn't unique to asia as strange as it might sound, but people working 10 hour days and not getting paid anything more then lodging as a common occurrence is a bit of a stretch to me but w/e. Choose your side carefully. What you really should do is to complain about those GOM teams as the salary and benefit in Kespa > GOM teams. Why aren't you doing so? I call factionalism on this one.
If you scroll up a bit I've already said I think gom players are treated like shit. And if you read my post and misinterpreted it then you just got a confirmation on my opinion 
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I have an idea. If KeSPA is so evil and need to die for Sc2's growth or whatever then why doesn't everyone...let the organization proceed with its evil and unreasonable plan? They will fail and the players will leave, free themselves from the evil empire. And Blizz, GOM, ESF and KeSPA players will live happy forever after. Why does ESL have to stop KeSPA from committing suicide?
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On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand. Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to: now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. which is wrong. eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc. But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions. You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to.
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On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players.
Well, they are playing in WCS Korea and in the OSL and in both tournaments Kespa players meet (would have met) eSF players.
I still think it's a bad decision. Not all Kespa players are elite-players and you could allow the non-established guys to get some chance at showing if they can compete.
Of course Kespa has reasons to do what they do but in my opinion it is still wrong.
I think I should stay out of discussion threads like this, I can't express my opinion as good as I want to in English :/
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On August 27 2012 00:26 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:23 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:20 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:10 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:09 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:04 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 26 2012 23:55 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 23:53 chisuri wrote:On August 26 2012 23:45 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
I agree, not getting paid the minimum wage and over working people is the sign of a good country. Strange that koreans themselves don't seem to like kespa. If you are not doing well don't expect to get paid. I thought it was the same in America and Europe? Those guys have all the rights to quit the moment they think it is unfair. Go out and do other jobs. Or don't even enter professional gaming at the first place. They knew what were awaiting them. But they still decided to compete for the top slots because that are what real men do. And I repeat, that's normal here. Don't like it? It's up to you but don't judge us if we are fine with it. And if you take what Korean netizens said then you don't know them well enough. Try to look for Korean showbiz news and you will see how the media and the netizens in Korea treat celebrities and how they hate life in general. Are you seriously saying that it's okay for people to work 13.5 hours a day 7 days a week and not get paid? I just know that you have never put in that amount of work into your job, other wise you wouldn't be making such a retarded claim. And the players aren't fine with it, which is why people like Boxer and Stork talk about having a players union, and the players that got out of that situation all say they never want to go back. Lots of people do that when they are trying to do something they dream of, artists, musicians, showmen etc. Even people trying to start a business often end up working way beyond 'normal' hours, and end up with nothing but debt to show for it. It's not like they are forced to do it, it's what they choose to do. There's been a long time for players to do something about their conditions, and those who really couldn't stand it, switched to SC2 on release. But for all the talk about how bad it is, plenty of them are fine with doing it; they are fine with working way beyond 'normal' to try and become best at what they do. It's funny how every time someone posts a blog about 'I wanna go pro' or along these lines, all of TL rallies around it saying how it's expected to work much more and much harder than in a 'normal' job to have any chance of success - but suddenly if you do it under a corporation that guarantees you won't at least starve or something, then it's bad? Also, you're citing Stork being 'not fine' with it, but where in his interviews has he said that the player's conditions are awful and they all hate KeSPA? All he said is that he is unhappy with the hybrid proleague format, and that decisions are made sometimes without player's input - both of these are things that could be improved, but it's hardly the same as saying, 'I hate KeSPA they treat us like shit'. The difference is that someone working 70 hours a week is that they will then own a fucking company, some b-teamer working 70 hours a week so that flash can play better will do nothing but increase the latters pay check. And I would never ever tell someone its a smart idea to try become a pro gamer. Or they will end up going bankrupt and lose their house and hang themselves. What, you seriously think every startup ends up being Facebook? Not every B-teamer ends up quitting, some of them actually, you know, get good - look at By.Sun for the most obvious and most recent example. Of course you wouldn't tell someone it's a smart idea to become a progamer - just like no sane parent would tell their child it's a good idea to try to become a rockstar, or to try to start a business venture without having backup assets - but people who truly want to do it, go for it anyway - it's a decision everyone has to make for themselves. Not everyone in life gets where they are by playing it safe and doing the sensible thing, and the unfortunate reality is that not everyone gets to be a star when they grow up. But then again, it's not like kids in eSF teams have it any better, so what is your point really? Oh, but they get to decide whether they wanna play in X tournament or not, clearly that makes it all the better. Yeah, just go look at sc2earnings site and decide for yourself, who has the better chances here. The business point I made was stupid I agree, but in the case of people having almost nothing to show then yes choice makes a gigantic difference. Tbh that really wasn't what I was arguing, I was arguing that the apparently eastern culture as presented by chisuri just wasn't realistic. Actually, he's right. Younger people work insane hours pretty much across all industries there; 6 day work weeks with 10 hour days and extra overtime that isn't really optional is pretty normal at least in Korea. Vacation time? Maybe when you're a CEO or at least mid-level manager yourself. Anyway, who are you all to decide whether the way KeSPA runs their teams is good or not? The way they do it obviously works, the success of BW can speak for itself, as does their rate of improvement in SC2 currently. You can start criticizing them if after a year they aren't the top contenders for every tournament they enter, but so far - it seems like they are on the right track. Whether they are being 'oppressed' or not, the players can decide for themselves. In the meantime, eSF and the rest should focus on practising their asses off instead of trying to throw rocks into other people's houses. There's literally no reason for KeSPA to be trying to push GomTV out of the market or whatever; and there's plenty of internal reasons for them to avoid playing in the current GSL, so... People working 10 hour days isn't unique to asia as strange as it might sound, but people working 10 hour days and not getting paid anything more then lodging as a common occurrence is a bit of a stretch to me but w/e. It's not that uncommon in creative industries, or for internships - and that's what being a B-teamer basically is. It's not like you become a B-teamer as a career choice, you do it with a view to 'make it big'.
Except again that's not unique to asia. I'm talking about chisuri's amazingly well written post where non-asians apparently don't work and ruin world economies.
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On August 27 2012 00:29 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Well, they are playing in WCS Korea and in the OSL and in both tournaments Kespa players meet (would have met) eSF players. I still think it's a bad decision. Not all Kespa players are elite-players and you could allow the non-established guys to get some chance at showing if they can compete. Of course Kespa has reasons to do what they do but in my opinion it is still wrong. I think I should stay out of discussion threads like this, I can't express my opinion as good as I want to in English :/
If they fail they will stain the reputation of the whole organization and the elite ones. And GOM wants the elite ones to attend not some so-so players. Everything about freedom is bullshit.
OSL is still KeSPA's playground. KeSPA playes will have advantages there, unlike in GSL.
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On August 27 2012 00:27 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:26 Xiphos wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:20 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:10 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:09 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:04 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 26 2012 23:55 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2012 23:53 chisuri wrote:
[quote]
If you are not doing well don't expect to get paid. I thought it was the same in America and Europe? Those guys have all the rights to quit the moment they think it is unfair. Go out and do other jobs. Or don't even enter professional gaming at the first place. They knew what were awaiting them. But they still decided to compete for the top slots because that are what real men do. And I repeat, that's normal here. Don't like it? It's up to you but don't judge us if we are fine with it.
And if you take what Korean netizens said then you don't know them well enough. Try to look for Korean showbiz news and you will see how the media and the netizens in Korea treat celebrities and how they hate life in general. Are you seriously saying that it's okay for people to work 13.5 hours a day 7 days a week and not get paid? I just know that you have never put in that amount of work into your job, other wise you wouldn't be making such a retarded claim. And the players aren't fine with it, which is why people like Boxer and Stork talk about having a players union, and the players that got out of that situation all say they never want to go back. Lots of people do that when they are trying to do something they dream of, artists, musicians, showmen etc. Even people trying to start a business often end up working way beyond 'normal' hours, and end up with nothing but debt to show for it. It's not like they are forced to do it, it's what they choose to do. There's been a long time for players to do something about their conditions, and those who really couldn't stand it, switched to SC2 on release. But for all the talk about how bad it is, plenty of them are fine with doing it; they are fine with working way beyond 'normal' to try and become best at what they do. It's funny how every time someone posts a blog about 'I wanna go pro' or along these lines, all of TL rallies around it saying how it's expected to work much more and much harder than in a 'normal' job to have any chance of success - but suddenly if you do it under a corporation that guarantees you won't at least starve or something, then it's bad? Also, you're citing Stork being 'not fine' with it, but where in his interviews has he said that the player's conditions are awful and they all hate KeSPA? All he said is that he is unhappy with the hybrid proleague format, and that decisions are made sometimes without player's input - both of these are things that could be improved, but it's hardly the same as saying, 'I hate KeSPA they treat us like shit'. The difference is that someone working 70 hours a week is that they will then own a fucking company, some b-teamer working 70 hours a week so that flash can play better will do nothing but increase the latters pay check. And I would never ever tell someone its a smart idea to try become a pro gamer. Or they will end up going bankrupt and lose their house and hang themselves. What, you seriously think every startup ends up being Facebook? Not every B-teamer ends up quitting, some of them actually, you know, get good - look at By.Sun for the most obvious and most recent example. Of course you wouldn't tell someone it's a smart idea to become a progamer - just like no sane parent would tell their child it's a good idea to try to become a rockstar, or to try to start a business venture without having backup assets - but people who truly want to do it, go for it anyway - it's a decision everyone has to make for themselves. Not everyone in life gets where they are by playing it safe and doing the sensible thing, and the unfortunate reality is that not everyone gets to be a star when they grow up. But then again, it's not like kids in eSF teams have it any better, so what is your point really? Oh, but they get to decide whether they wanna play in X tournament or not, clearly that makes it all the better. Yeah, just go look at sc2earnings site and decide for yourself, who has the better chances here. The business point I made was stupid I agree, but in the case of people having almost nothing to show then yes choice makes a gigantic difference. Tbh that really wasn't what I was arguing, I was arguing that the apparently eastern culture as presented by chisuri just wasn't realistic. Actually, he's right. Younger people work insane hours pretty much across all industries there; 6 day work weeks with 10 hour days and extra overtime that isn't really optional is pretty normal at least in Korea. Vacation time? Maybe when you're a CEO or at least mid-level manager yourself. Anyway, who are you all to decide whether the way KeSPA runs their teams is good or not? The way they do it obviously works, the success of BW can speak for itself, as does their rate of improvement in SC2 currently. You can start criticizing them if after a year they aren't the top contenders for every tournament they enter, but so far - it seems like they are on the right track. Whether they are being 'oppressed' or not, the players can decide for themselves. In the meantime, eSF and the rest should focus on practising their asses off instead of trying to throw rocks into other people's houses. There's literally no reason for KeSPA to be trying to push GomTV out of the market or whatever; and there's plenty of internal reasons for them to avoid playing in the current GSL, so... People working 10 hour days isn't unique to asia as strange as it might sound, but people working 10 hour days and not getting paid anything more then lodging as a common occurrence is a bit of a stretch to me but w/e. Choose your side carefully. What you really should do is to complain about those GOM teams as the salary and benefit in Kespa > GOM teams. Why aren't you doing so? I call factionalism on this one. If you scroll up a bit I've already said I think gom players are treated like shit. And if you read my post and misinterpreted it then you just got a confirmation on my opinion
So you are still sideless on this one.
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EPT
