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On August 27 2012 00:57 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:54 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:51 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Bullshit. If they felt their players weren't ready to enter the GSL (which they withheld them from participating in earlier with this exact reason) then why the fuck would they say it's a scheduling issue? I mean, if you want to go on a bigger tangent and speculate that they 'don't want people knowing kespa players aren't that good yet,' then what the fuck is with the utter collapse in communication? ESF believes KeSPA is up to their shenanigans and has a gun to OGN's head with one day on the trigger and KeSPA can't clarify this? Nothing but wishful, speculative bullshit. Wait, do you seriously expect they'd say, "we think our players are bad" in this situation? Lol. They used that excuse for GSL3. They said they didn't think the players were ready to compete on the proper level yet. People accepted that excuse.
That was like a month after they started playing SC2, though. Now they've had players beating eSF guys in WCS and all, I'm pretty sure it'd look different. Regardless, I still haven't seen anyone come up with a reasonable idea as to what KeSPA stands to gain from 'boycotting' GSL just for the sake of it?
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On August 27 2012 00:58 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:51 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Bullshit. If they felt their players weren't ready to enter the GSL (which they withheld them from participating in earlier with this exact reason) then why the fuck would they say it's a scheduling issue? I mean, if you want to go on a bigger tangent and speculate that they 'don't want people knowing kespa players aren't that good yet,' then what the fuck is with the utter collapse in communication? ESF believes KeSPA is up to their shenanigans and has a gun to OGN's head with one day on the trigger and KeSPA can't clarify this? Nothing but wishful, speculative bullshit. Who could have thought that ESF players are such amateurish assholes who would go as far as blackmailing people and pulling out of ongoing tournament? I certainly expected more than that from them. But I was wrong and KeSPA was also, I think. They had little experience dealing with such unprofessional impulse like that before. Can you blame them if they expected the ESF players were better pros?
I'm not even replying to you. Go quote someone else's post out of context.
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On August 27 2012 00:59 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:45 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:39 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:
[quote]
why is this unreasonable
MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand. Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to: now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. which is wrong. eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc. But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions. You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'. Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL. Stop being ignorant and reading only what you want to read. The players have a far better shot at being successful if they only prepare for one tournament, on maps they are familiar with, vs players who play in several events at the same time and might not be taking their games as seriously. Of course getting smashed in OSL will hurt their image as well - but they have a much better chance of NOT getting smashed if they focus on one thing at a time; and OSL as an SC2 league was announced a good half a year ago. They don't have the option of backing out of it. If anything, OGN put KeSPA in a difficult spot by making it a mixed tournament so far in advance, but they have to go through with it - they don't have to go through with GSL. Also, losing to MVP isn't exactly the same as losing to a random ladder player who might not even be on an official team in the preliminaries. Code A/S seeds weren't offered to KeSPA before they already announced their decision not to play in GSL. But the GSL players already have a worse workload than the KeSPA players. ESF players actually travel around the country, and play in OSL, AND play in WCS Korea. There's no reason the KeSPA players can't do one more local tourney when GSL players fly around the world.
GSL players have been playing Starcraft 2 for 3 years, KeSPA players for just over 3 months, and not even full time. That's a pretty significant difference, if you ask me. And besides, who are eSF to decide how many tournaments KeSPA players should participate in or how they should prepare for their games? It's how KeSPA does it, their preparation style is very different from eSF teams. There's nothing wrong with that.
edit: there's been plenty of times in the past where players would decide to stop travelling for a while, not even once anyone said a word against that - indeed every fan cheered when their favourite would say, "I'm going to stay in Korea and practice for 1-2-3 months to improve my GSL results" - because that means better games for us. This situation doesn't seem at all different.
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On August 27 2012 00:58 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:51 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Bullshit. If they felt their players weren't ready to enter the GSL (which they withheld them from participating in earlier with this exact reason) then why the fuck would they say it's a scheduling issue? I mean, if you want to go on a bigger tangent and speculate that they 'don't want people knowing kespa players aren't that good yet,' then what the fuck is with the utter collapse in communication? ESF believes KeSPA is up to their shenanigans and has a gun to OGN's head with one day on the trigger and KeSPA can't clarify this? Nothing but wishful, speculative bullshit. Who could have thought that ESF players are such amateurish assholes who would go as far as blackmailing people and pulling out of ongoing tournament? I certainly expected more than that from them. But I was wrong and KeSPA was also, I think. They had little experience dealing with such unprofessional impulse like that before. Can you blame them if they expected the ESF players were better pros?
Because ESF doesn't want to get swallowed by KeSPA the same way it happened to GOM before. KeSPA has no reason to forbid their players from playing in GSL except for taking advantage of ESF
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On August 27 2012 01:01 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:59 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:45 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:39 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:
[quote]
They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL.
That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no.
eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand. Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to: now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. which is wrong. eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc. But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions. You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'. Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL. Stop being ignorant and reading only what you want to read. The players have a far better shot at being successful if they only prepare for one tournament, on maps they are familiar with, vs players who play in several events at the same time and might not be taking their games as seriously. Of course getting smashed in OSL will hurt their image as well - but they have a much better chance of NOT getting smashed if they focus on one thing at a time; and OSL as an SC2 league was announced a good half a year ago. They don't have the option of backing out of it. If anything, OGN put KeSPA in a difficult spot by making it a mixed tournament so far in advance, but they have to go through with it - they don't have to go through with GSL. Also, losing to MVP isn't exactly the same as losing to a random ladder player who might not even be on an official team in the preliminaries. Code A/S seeds weren't offered to KeSPA before they already announced their decision not to play in GSL. But the GSL players already have a worse workload than the KeSPA players. ESF players actually travel around the country, and play in OSL, AND play in WCS Korea. There's no reason the KeSPA players can't do one more local tourney when GSL players fly around the world. GSL players have been playing Starcraft 2 for 3 years, KeSPA players for just over 3 months, and not even full time. That's a pretty significant difference, if you ask me. And besides, who are eSF to decide how many tournaments KeSPA players should participate in or how they should prepare for their games? It's how KeSPA does it, their preparation style is very different from eSF teams. There's nothing wrong with that. edit: there's been plenty of times in the past where players would decide to stop travelling for a while, not even once anyone said a word against that - indeed every fan cheered when their favourite would say, "I'm going to stay in Korea and practice for 1-2-3 months to improve my GSL results" - because that means better games for us. This situation doesn't seem at all different.
Because they were presumably agreed to play in GSL season 4.
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On August 27 2012 01:01 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:58 chisuri wrote:On August 27 2012 00:51 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Bullshit. If they felt their players weren't ready to enter the GSL (which they withheld them from participating in earlier with this exact reason) then why the fuck would they say it's a scheduling issue? I mean, if you want to go on a bigger tangent and speculate that they 'don't want people knowing kespa players aren't that good yet,' then what the fuck is with the utter collapse in communication? ESF believes KeSPA is up to their shenanigans and has a gun to OGN's head with one day on the trigger and KeSPA can't clarify this? Nothing but wishful, speculative bullshit. Who could have thought that ESF players are such amateurish assholes who would go as far as blackmailing people and pulling out of ongoing tournament? I certainly expected more than that from them. But I was wrong and KeSPA was also, I think. They had little experience dealing with such unprofessional impulse like that before. Can you blame them if they expected the ESF players were better pros? Because ESF doesn't want to get swallowed by KeSPA the same way it happened to GOM before. KeSPA has no reason to forbid their players from playing in GSL except for taking advantage of ESF
How are they going to 'swallow' eSF? What benefit do they have from 'swallowing' eSF (if you can even explain how they are going to do it...). KeSPA's funding comes from their sponsors - who pay them to play games and show their brand to fans. All they need to do is make sure their players end up being better or at least on par with eSF ones; whatever path they choose for that is fair, unless you feel like players practising 'too hard' is somehow a bad thing.
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On August 27 2012 01:03 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 01:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:59 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:45 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:39 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:
[quote]
eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand. Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to: now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. which is wrong. eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc. But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions. You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'. Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL. Stop being ignorant and reading only what you want to read. The players have a far better shot at being successful if they only prepare for one tournament, on maps they are familiar with, vs players who play in several events at the same time and might not be taking their games as seriously. Of course getting smashed in OSL will hurt their image as well - but they have a much better chance of NOT getting smashed if they focus on one thing at a time; and OSL as an SC2 league was announced a good half a year ago. They don't have the option of backing out of it. If anything, OGN put KeSPA in a difficult spot by making it a mixed tournament so far in advance, but they have to go through with it - they don't have to go through with GSL. Also, losing to MVP isn't exactly the same as losing to a random ladder player who might not even be on an official team in the preliminaries. Code A/S seeds weren't offered to KeSPA before they already announced their decision not to play in GSL. But the GSL players already have a worse workload than the KeSPA players. ESF players actually travel around the country, and play in OSL, AND play in WCS Korea. There's no reason the KeSPA players can't do one more local tourney when GSL players fly around the world. GSL players have been playing Starcraft 2 for 3 years, KeSPA players for just over 3 months, and not even full time. That's a pretty significant difference, if you ask me. And besides, who are eSF to decide how many tournaments KeSPA players should participate in or how they should prepare for their games? It's how KeSPA does it, their preparation style is very different from eSF teams. There's nothing wrong with that. edit: there's been plenty of times in the past where players would decide to stop travelling for a while, not even once anyone said a word against that - indeed every fan cheered when their favourite would say, "I'm going to stay in Korea and practice for 1-2-3 months to improve my GSL results" - because that means better games for us. This situation doesn't seem at all different. Because they were presumably agreed to play in GSL season 4.
Presumably. It was never actually stated that they would play in GSL4, they did not back out of any agreements or break any contracts. If anything, it's a lack of communication on both sides - and ruining an already running tournament over a presumed agreement being 'broken' is pretty awful.
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FYI, I'm curious to see the Korean media take on this.
I can imagine that they will probably say:
"Blizzard uses ESF as proxy to monopolize Korean eSports"
in a final scorched earth strategy if the ESF refuses to surrender its Korean players to Korean corporate interests. Better to burn all of Korean eSports than let a Korean market be penetrated by foreigners...
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Regardless of what you think about each side, the ball is in KeSPA's court now. The ESF players have hunkered down and said they won't play in OSL until KeSPA players are allowed to play in GSL. KeSPA either stands their ground, leaving OGN fucked with who knows how much damage to the scene or removes it's ban on GSL4. If KeSPA removes it's ban and the individual teams/players/coaches by themselves decide to wait another season then so be it, at least they have a choice. ESF would have no reason to hold out if the choices are made individually. (And public opinion would likely shift against them if they did)
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On August 27 2012 01:06 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 01:03 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 01:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:59 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:45 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:39 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:
[quote]
Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to:
[quote]
which is wrong.
eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc.
But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions. You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'. Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL. Stop being ignorant and reading only what you want to read. The players have a far better shot at being successful if they only prepare for one tournament, on maps they are familiar with, vs players who play in several events at the same time and might not be taking their games as seriously. Of course getting smashed in OSL will hurt their image as well - but they have a much better chance of NOT getting smashed if they focus on one thing at a time; and OSL as an SC2 league was announced a good half a year ago. They don't have the option of backing out of it. If anything, OGN put KeSPA in a difficult spot by making it a mixed tournament so far in advance, but they have to go through with it - they don't have to go through with GSL. Also, losing to MVP isn't exactly the same as losing to a random ladder player who might not even be on an official team in the preliminaries. Code A/S seeds weren't offered to KeSPA before they already announced their decision not to play in GSL. But the GSL players already have a worse workload than the KeSPA players. ESF players actually travel around the country, and play in OSL, AND play in WCS Korea. There's no reason the KeSPA players can't do one more local tourney when GSL players fly around the world. GSL players have been playing Starcraft 2 for 3 years, KeSPA players for just over 3 months, and not even full time. That's a pretty significant difference, if you ask me. And besides, who are eSF to decide how many tournaments KeSPA players should participate in or how they should prepare for their games? It's how KeSPA does it, their preparation style is very different from eSF teams. There's nothing wrong with that. edit: there's been plenty of times in the past where players would decide to stop travelling for a while, not even once anyone said a word against that - indeed every fan cheered when their favourite would say, "I'm going to stay in Korea and practice for 1-2-3 months to improve my GSL results" - because that means better games for us. This situation doesn't seem at all different. Because they were presumably agreed to play in GSL season 4. Presumably. It was never actually stated that they would play in GSL4, they did not back out of any agreements or break any contracts. If anything, it's a lack of communication on both sides - and ruining an already running tournament over a presumed agreement being 'broken' is pretty awful.
We don't know if it was stated. ESF however is being really aggressive in pursuing these presumed agreements that KeSPA has been known to back out of to monopolize the starcraft market. I don't think ESF wanted to actually pull out of OSL, rather just get KeSPA's attention. It'd be most unfortunate if they couldn't come to terms.
On August 27 2012 01:05 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 01:01 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:58 chisuri wrote:On August 27 2012 00:51 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Bullshit. If they felt their players weren't ready to enter the GSL (which they withheld them from participating in earlier with this exact reason) then why the fuck would they say it's a scheduling issue? I mean, if you want to go on a bigger tangent and speculate that they 'don't want people knowing kespa players aren't that good yet,' then what the fuck is with the utter collapse in communication? ESF believes KeSPA is up to their shenanigans and has a gun to OGN's head with one day on the trigger and KeSPA can't clarify this? Nothing but wishful, speculative bullshit. Who could have thought that ESF players are such amateurish assholes who would go as far as blackmailing people and pulling out of ongoing tournament? I certainly expected more than that from them. But I was wrong and KeSPA was also, I think. They had little experience dealing with such unprofessional impulse like that before. Can you blame them if they expected the ESF players were better pros? Because ESF doesn't want to get swallowed by KeSPA the same way it happened to GOM before. KeSPA has no reason to forbid their players from playing in GSL except for taking advantage of ESF How are they going to 'swallow' eSF? What benefit do they have from 'swallowing' eSF (if you can even explain how they are going to do it...). KeSPA's funding comes from their sponsors - who pay them to play games and show their brand to fans. All they need to do is make sure their players end up being better or at least on par with eSF ones; whatever path they choose for that is fair, unless you feel like players practising 'too hard' is somehow a bad thing.
They use their star players and larger korean fanbase and sponsorships to bring Korea to their side by slowly excluding them. They tried to kill GOM in BW for the exact same reason: monopoly. Can't blame them though because there was nothing to stop them.
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On August 27 2012 01:09 xBillehx wrote:
Regardless of what you think about each side, the ball is in KeSPA's court now. The ESF players have hunkered down and said they won't play in OSL until KeSPA players are allowed to play in GSL. KeSPA either stands their ground, leaving OGN fucked with who knows how much damage to the scene or removes it's ban on GSL4. If KeSPA removes it's ban and the individual teams/players/coaches by themselves decide to wait another season then so be it, at least they have a choice. ESF would have no reason to hold out if the choices are made individually. (And public opinion would likely shift against them if they did)
Actually probably not, individual coaches players could just all say "we'd rather wait, we're not ready" and that would be the end of it.
KeSPA and the sponsors that own the teams are one and the same anyhow.
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*self nuke for stupid post lol*
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On August 27 2012 01:12 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 01:06 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 01:03 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 01:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:59 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:45 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:39 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:
[quote]
You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'. Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL. Stop being ignorant and reading only what you want to read. The players have a far better shot at being successful if they only prepare for one tournament, on maps they are familiar with, vs players who play in several events at the same time and might not be taking their games as seriously. Of course getting smashed in OSL will hurt their image as well - but they have a much better chance of NOT getting smashed if they focus on one thing at a time; and OSL as an SC2 league was announced a good half a year ago. They don't have the option of backing out of it. If anything, OGN put KeSPA in a difficult spot by making it a mixed tournament so far in advance, but they have to go through with it - they don't have to go through with GSL. Also, losing to MVP isn't exactly the same as losing to a random ladder player who might not even be on an official team in the preliminaries. Code A/S seeds weren't offered to KeSPA before they already announced their decision not to play in GSL. But the GSL players already have a worse workload than the KeSPA players. ESF players actually travel around the country, and play in OSL, AND play in WCS Korea. There's no reason the KeSPA players can't do one more local tourney when GSL players fly around the world. GSL players have been playing Starcraft 2 for 3 years, KeSPA players for just over 3 months, and not even full time. That's a pretty significant difference, if you ask me. And besides, who are eSF to decide how many tournaments KeSPA players should participate in or how they should prepare for their games? It's how KeSPA does it, their preparation style is very different from eSF teams. There's nothing wrong with that. edit: there's been plenty of times in the past where players would decide to stop travelling for a while, not even once anyone said a word against that - indeed every fan cheered when their favourite would say, "I'm going to stay in Korea and practice for 1-2-3 months to improve my GSL results" - because that means better games for us. This situation doesn't seem at all different. Because they were presumably agreed to play in GSL season 4. Presumably. It was never actually stated that they would play in GSL4, they did not back out of any agreements or break any contracts. If anything, it's a lack of communication on both sides - and ruining an already running tournament over a presumed agreement being 'broken' is pretty awful. We don't know if it was stated. ESF however is being really aggressive in pursuing these presumed agreements that KeSPA has been known to back out of to monopolize the starcraft market. I don't think ESF wanted to actually pull out of OSL, rather just get KeSPA's attention. It'd be most unfortunate if they couldn't come to terms.
If it was indeed stated, you can be sure eSF would have mentioned it, no doubt about that. As for KeSPA monopolizing the market... I keep asking this over and over, but still see no answer. How do you see KeSPA going about monopolizing it by refusing to participate in GSL? Why would KeSPA even want to do that?
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On August 27 2012 01:15 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 01:12 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 01:06 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 01:03 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 01:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:59 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:45 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:39 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'. Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL. Stop being ignorant and reading only what you want to read. The players have a far better shot at being successful if they only prepare for one tournament, on maps they are familiar with, vs players who play in several events at the same time and might not be taking their games as seriously. Of course getting smashed in OSL will hurt their image as well - but they have a much better chance of NOT getting smashed if they focus on one thing at a time; and OSL as an SC2 league was announced a good half a year ago. They don't have the option of backing out of it. If anything, OGN put KeSPA in a difficult spot by making it a mixed tournament so far in advance, but they have to go through with it - they don't have to go through with GSL. Also, losing to MVP isn't exactly the same as losing to a random ladder player who might not even be on an official team in the preliminaries. Code A/S seeds weren't offered to KeSPA before they already announced their decision not to play in GSL. But the GSL players already have a worse workload than the KeSPA players. ESF players actually travel around the country, and play in OSL, AND play in WCS Korea. There's no reason the KeSPA players can't do one more local tourney when GSL players fly around the world. GSL players have been playing Starcraft 2 for 3 years, KeSPA players for just over 3 months, and not even full time. That's a pretty significant difference, if you ask me. And besides, who are eSF to decide how many tournaments KeSPA players should participate in or how they should prepare for their games? It's how KeSPA does it, their preparation style is very different from eSF teams. There's nothing wrong with that. edit: there's been plenty of times in the past where players would decide to stop travelling for a while, not even once anyone said a word against that - indeed every fan cheered when their favourite would say, "I'm going to stay in Korea and practice for 1-2-3 months to improve my GSL results" - because that means better games for us. This situation doesn't seem at all different. Because they were presumably agreed to play in GSL season 4. Presumably. It was never actually stated that they would play in GSL4, they did not back out of any agreements or break any contracts. If anything, it's a lack of communication on both sides - and ruining an already running tournament over a presumed agreement being 'broken' is pretty awful. We don't know if it was stated. ESF however is being really aggressive in pursuing these presumed agreements that KeSPA has been known to back out of to monopolize the starcraft market. I don't think ESF wanted to actually pull out of OSL, rather just get KeSPA's attention. It'd be most unfortunate if they couldn't come to terms. If it was indeed stated, you can be sure eSF would have mentioned it, no doubt about that. As for KeSPA monopolizing the market... I keep asking this over and over, but still see no answer. How do you see KeSPA going about monopolizing it by refusing to participate in GSL? Why would KeSPA even want to do that?
They'd be happy participating in the GSL if the players/teams got slices of ad revenue, and all the players/teams were owned by the same corporate sponsors that own KeSPA.
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On August 27 2012 01:15 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 01:12 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 01:06 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 01:03 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 01:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:59 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:45 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:39 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'. Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL. Stop being ignorant and reading only what you want to read. The players have a far better shot at being successful if they only prepare for one tournament, on maps they are familiar with, vs players who play in several events at the same time and might not be taking their games as seriously. Of course getting smashed in OSL will hurt their image as well - but they have a much better chance of NOT getting smashed if they focus on one thing at a time; and OSL as an SC2 league was announced a good half a year ago. They don't have the option of backing out of it. If anything, OGN put KeSPA in a difficult spot by making it a mixed tournament so far in advance, but they have to go through with it - they don't have to go through with GSL. Also, losing to MVP isn't exactly the same as losing to a random ladder player who might not even be on an official team in the preliminaries. Code A/S seeds weren't offered to KeSPA before they already announced their decision not to play in GSL. But the GSL players already have a worse workload than the KeSPA players. ESF players actually travel around the country, and play in OSL, AND play in WCS Korea. There's no reason the KeSPA players can't do one more local tourney when GSL players fly around the world. GSL players have been playing Starcraft 2 for 3 years, KeSPA players for just over 3 months, and not even full time. That's a pretty significant difference, if you ask me. And besides, who are eSF to decide how many tournaments KeSPA players should participate in or how they should prepare for their games? It's how KeSPA does it, their preparation style is very different from eSF teams. There's nothing wrong with that. edit: there's been plenty of times in the past where players would decide to stop travelling for a while, not even once anyone said a word against that - indeed every fan cheered when their favourite would say, "I'm going to stay in Korea and practice for 1-2-3 months to improve my GSL results" - because that means better games for us. This situation doesn't seem at all different. Because they were presumably agreed to play in GSL season 4. Presumably. It was never actually stated that they would play in GSL4, they did not back out of any agreements or break any contracts. If anything, it's a lack of communication on both sides - and ruining an already running tournament over a presumed agreement being 'broken' is pretty awful. We don't know if it was stated. ESF however is being really aggressive in pursuing these presumed agreements that KeSPA has been known to back out of to monopolize the starcraft market. I don't think ESF wanted to actually pull out of OSL, rather just get KeSPA's attention. It'd be most unfortunate if they couldn't come to terms. If it was indeed stated, you can be sure eSF would have mentioned it, no doubt about that. As for KeSPA monopolizing the market... I keep asking this over and over, but still see no answer. How do you see KeSPA going about monopolizing it by refusing to participate in GSL? Why would KeSPA even want to do that?
Because they did the same shit before in BW? Do you not know KeSPA? Like, do I have to link the wikipedia to monopolies to emphasize how amazingly beneficial it is to KeSPA to own the entire Korean SC2 market? They're known to be really aggressive in pursuing this monopoly. They have the big name stars, the money, the big korean sponsors, and the much larger BW fanbase behind their star players. They exclude GSL entirely and it dies off like it did in BW when OSL becomes a much more attractive event with more fans and those star players/ESF players competing.
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On August 27 2012 01:15 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 01:12 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 01:06 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 01:03 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 01:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:59 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:45 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:39 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'. Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL. Stop being ignorant and reading only what you want to read. The players have a far better shot at being successful if they only prepare for one tournament, on maps they are familiar with, vs players who play in several events at the same time and might not be taking their games as seriously. Of course getting smashed in OSL will hurt their image as well - but they have a much better chance of NOT getting smashed if they focus on one thing at a time; and OSL as an SC2 league was announced a good half a year ago. They don't have the option of backing out of it. If anything, OGN put KeSPA in a difficult spot by making it a mixed tournament so far in advance, but they have to go through with it - they don't have to go through with GSL. Also, losing to MVP isn't exactly the same as losing to a random ladder player who might not even be on an official team in the preliminaries. Code A/S seeds weren't offered to KeSPA before they already announced their decision not to play in GSL. But the GSL players already have a worse workload than the KeSPA players. ESF players actually travel around the country, and play in OSL, AND play in WCS Korea. There's no reason the KeSPA players can't do one more local tourney when GSL players fly around the world. GSL players have been playing Starcraft 2 for 3 years, KeSPA players for just over 3 months, and not even full time. That's a pretty significant difference, if you ask me. And besides, who are eSF to decide how many tournaments KeSPA players should participate in or how they should prepare for their games? It's how KeSPA does it, their preparation style is very different from eSF teams. There's nothing wrong with that. edit: there's been plenty of times in the past where players would decide to stop travelling for a while, not even once anyone said a word against that - indeed every fan cheered when their favourite would say, "I'm going to stay in Korea and practice for 1-2-3 months to improve my GSL results" - because that means better games for us. This situation doesn't seem at all different. Because they were presumably agreed to play in GSL season 4. Presumably. It was never actually stated that they would play in GSL4, they did not back out of any agreements or break any contracts. If anything, it's a lack of communication on both sides - and ruining an already running tournament over a presumed agreement being 'broken' is pretty awful. We don't know if it was stated. ESF however is being really aggressive in pursuing these presumed agreements that KeSPA has been known to back out of to monopolize the starcraft market. I don't think ESF wanted to actually pull out of OSL, rather just get KeSPA's attention. It'd be most unfortunate if they couldn't come to terms. If it was indeed stated, you can be sure eSF would have mentioned it, no doubt about that. As for KeSPA monopolizing the market... I keep asking this over and over, but still see no answer. How do you see KeSPA going about monopolizing it by refusing to participate in GSL? Why would KeSPA even want to do that?
That's an easy one. GSL doesn't get new hyped players and the biggest rivalry on the scene. If ESF still takes part in OSL, Gom's competitor has the more exciting product. GSL falls in prestige and viewers start to prefer OSL. Gom has to shut their league down because it becomes financially unsustainable. KeSPA, now having all the major leagues in Korea, reinstates pro license requirement and forces all players to join one of the teams under their control.
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On August 27 2012 00:59 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:57 xBillehx wrote:On August 27 2012 00:54 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:51 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Bullshit. If they felt their players weren't ready to enter the GSL (which they withheld them from participating in earlier with this exact reason) then why the fuck would they say it's a scheduling issue? I mean, if you want to go on a bigger tangent and speculate that they 'don't want people knowing kespa players aren't that good yet,' then what the fuck is with the utter collapse in communication? ESF believes KeSPA is up to their shenanigans and has a gun to OGN's head with one day on the trigger and KeSPA can't clarify this? Nothing but wishful, speculative bullshit. Wait, do you seriously expect they'd say, "we think our players are bad" in this situation? Lol. They used that excuse for GSL3. They said they didn't think the players were ready to compete on the proper level yet. People accepted that excuse. That was like a month after they started playing SC2, though. Now they've had players beating eSF guys in WCS and all, I'm pretty sure it'd look different. Regardless, I still haven't seen anyone come up with a reasonable idea as to what KeSPA stands to gain from 'boycotting' GSL just for the sake of it?
The reason that I have seen and find makes the most sense to me, is that by boycotting the GSL, GSL does not stand to gain any viewers, while OSL gains the viewers from fans of the ESF players that participate. On top of viewers, OSL would have the benefit of being the only league in South Korea with players from both ESF and KeSPA.
Now whether or not they are doing this intentionally to hurt GOM, the fact is that it does hurt GOM, and ESF is clearly not going stand idly by while this happens.
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On August 27 2012 01:15 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 01:12 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 01:06 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 01:03 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 01:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:59 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:45 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:39 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:
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Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'. Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL. Stop being ignorant and reading only what you want to read. The players have a far better shot at being successful if they only prepare for one tournament, on maps they are familiar with, vs players who play in several events at the same time and might not be taking their games as seriously. Of course getting smashed in OSL will hurt their image as well - but they have a much better chance of NOT getting smashed if they focus on one thing at a time; and OSL as an SC2 league was announced a good half a year ago. They don't have the option of backing out of it. If anything, OGN put KeSPA in a difficult spot by making it a mixed tournament so far in advance, but they have to go through with it - they don't have to go through with GSL. Also, losing to MVP isn't exactly the same as losing to a random ladder player who might not even be on an official team in the preliminaries. Code A/S seeds weren't offered to KeSPA before they already announced their decision not to play in GSL. But the GSL players already have a worse workload than the KeSPA players. ESF players actually travel around the country, and play in OSL, AND play in WCS Korea. There's no reason the KeSPA players can't do one more local tourney when GSL players fly around the world. GSL players have been playing Starcraft 2 for 3 years, KeSPA players for just over 3 months, and not even full time. That's a pretty significant difference, if you ask me. And besides, who are eSF to decide how many tournaments KeSPA players should participate in or how they should prepare for their games? It's how KeSPA does it, their preparation style is very different from eSF teams. There's nothing wrong with that. edit: there's been plenty of times in the past where players would decide to stop travelling for a while, not even once anyone said a word against that - indeed every fan cheered when their favourite would say, "I'm going to stay in Korea and practice for 1-2-3 months to improve my GSL results" - because that means better games for us. This situation doesn't seem at all different. Because they were presumably agreed to play in GSL season 4. Presumably. It was never actually stated that they would play in GSL4, they did not back out of any agreements or break any contracts. If anything, it's a lack of communication on both sides - and ruining an already running tournament over a presumed agreement being 'broken' is pretty awful. We don't know if it was stated. ESF however is being really aggressive in pursuing these presumed agreements that KeSPA has been known to back out of to monopolize the starcraft market. I don't think ESF wanted to actually pull out of OSL, rather just get KeSPA's attention. It'd be most unfortunate if they couldn't come to terms. If it was indeed stated, you can be sure eSF would have mentioned it, no doubt about that. As for KeSPA monopolizing the market... I keep asking this over and over, but still see no answer. How do you see KeSPA going about monopolizing it by refusing to participate in GSL? Why would KeSPA even want to do that? By focussing center of attention to osl, a tournament, according to kespa liquipedia, 'organised' by kespa. I hope you see the danger for gom if their tournament does not have the important clashes (kespa vs esf players), while the osl does. esf sees the act of not going to the next gsl as an act against the trade agreement. Formally, that was only to ensure no transfers happened between kespa and esf teams, but it was also to establish relations. Kespa said (quoted literally from: http://esfiworld.com/news/kespa-esports-fed-agree-trade-lock-until-oct-2013 ): "For the sake of long-term development of eSports, revitalizing StarCraft 2 leagues is important. We want to show the growth of the industry by respecting each other's league and having a fair competition." In esf's eyes, the decision not to participate in coming gsl is disrespectful to gomtv's league and thus going against the agreements. Seeing kespa's reputation, i can hardly blame them.
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Oh god, not the "KeSPA screwing with Gom in the past" nonsense again. Read the posts a few pages back, that shit was pretty much made up by GomTV because it's easier to blame 'the bad guys' rather than accepting that you made some bad decisions.
As for KeSPA 'killing off Gom' stuff... again, KeSPA is NOT a broadcaster, they do NOT gain revenue from OSL streams or what have you. It doesn't matter much to KeSPA whether their teams' play is broadcasted by OGN or GomTV; they might prefer OGN as their primary broadcaster because they have a longer and, in the most recent days, more peaceful relationship with them, but considering that they already have the interest of OGN's viewers, while GSL fanbase is basically untapped potential for them, it makes no sense trying to stifle GomTV just for the sake of it at this point.
And what makes you think KeSPA would want current eSF teams to follow through their pro license requirements etc? At this point in time, they don't even have a sponsor for one of their own teams, it's not very likely they could find the sponsors for another hundred players or more just like that; and having eSF players quit the scene doesn't do any good for KeSPA teams. They need the competition and the rivalry; unlike eSF, they don't rely on income from winning tournaments but rather for showing games - as long as they can prove they are on par or better than eSF, they want eSF to be around. And if their players turn out to be worse than eSF teams, they're basically screwed no matter how you look at it.
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EPT
