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On August 27 2012 00:33 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:27 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:26 Xiphos wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:20 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:10 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:09 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:04 bo1b wrote:On August 27 2012 00:01 Sethronu wrote:On August 26 2012 23:55 bo1b wrote:
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Are you seriously saying that it's okay for people to work 13.5 hours a day 7 days a week and not get paid? I just know that you have never put in that amount of work into your job, other wise you wouldn't be making such a retarded claim. And the players aren't fine with it, which is why people like Boxer and Stork talk about having a players union, and the players that got out of that situation all say they never want to go back. Lots of people do that when they are trying to do something they dream of, artists, musicians, showmen etc. Even people trying to start a business often end up working way beyond 'normal' hours, and end up with nothing but debt to show for it. It's not like they are forced to do it, it's what they choose to do. There's been a long time for players to do something about their conditions, and those who really couldn't stand it, switched to SC2 on release. But for all the talk about how bad it is, plenty of them are fine with doing it; they are fine with working way beyond 'normal' to try and become best at what they do. It's funny how every time someone posts a blog about 'I wanna go pro' or along these lines, all of TL rallies around it saying how it's expected to work much more and much harder than in a 'normal' job to have any chance of success - but suddenly if you do it under a corporation that guarantees you won't at least starve or something, then it's bad? Also, you're citing Stork being 'not fine' with it, but where in his interviews has he said that the player's conditions are awful and they all hate KeSPA? All he said is that he is unhappy with the hybrid proleague format, and that decisions are made sometimes without player's input - both of these are things that could be improved, but it's hardly the same as saying, 'I hate KeSPA they treat us like shit'. The difference is that someone working 70 hours a week is that they will then own a fucking company, some b-teamer working 70 hours a week so that flash can play better will do nothing but increase the latters pay check. And I would never ever tell someone its a smart idea to try become a pro gamer. Or they will end up going bankrupt and lose their house and hang themselves. What, you seriously think every startup ends up being Facebook? Not every B-teamer ends up quitting, some of them actually, you know, get good - look at By.Sun for the most obvious and most recent example. Of course you wouldn't tell someone it's a smart idea to become a progamer - just like no sane parent would tell their child it's a good idea to try to become a rockstar, or to try to start a business venture without having backup assets - but people who truly want to do it, go for it anyway - it's a decision everyone has to make for themselves. Not everyone in life gets where they are by playing it safe and doing the sensible thing, and the unfortunate reality is that not everyone gets to be a star when they grow up. But then again, it's not like kids in eSF teams have it any better, so what is your point really? Oh, but they get to decide whether they wanna play in X tournament or not, clearly that makes it all the better. Yeah, just go look at sc2earnings site and decide for yourself, who has the better chances here. The business point I made was stupid I agree, but in the case of people having almost nothing to show then yes choice makes a gigantic difference. Tbh that really wasn't what I was arguing, I was arguing that the apparently eastern culture as presented by chisuri just wasn't realistic. Actually, he's right. Younger people work insane hours pretty much across all industries there; 6 day work weeks with 10 hour days and extra overtime that isn't really optional is pretty normal at least in Korea. Vacation time? Maybe when you're a CEO or at least mid-level manager yourself. Anyway, who are you all to decide whether the way KeSPA runs their teams is good or not? The way they do it obviously works, the success of BW can speak for itself, as does their rate of improvement in SC2 currently. You can start criticizing them if after a year they aren't the top contenders for every tournament they enter, but so far - it seems like they are on the right track. Whether they are being 'oppressed' or not, the players can decide for themselves. In the meantime, eSF and the rest should focus on practising their asses off instead of trying to throw rocks into other people's houses. There's literally no reason for KeSPA to be trying to push GomTV out of the market or whatever; and there's plenty of internal reasons for them to avoid playing in the current GSL, so... People working 10 hour days isn't unique to asia as strange as it might sound, but people working 10 hour days and not getting paid anything more then lodging as a common occurrence is a bit of a stretch to me but w/e. Choose your side carefully. What you really should do is to complain about those GOM teams as the salary and benefit in Kespa > GOM teams. Why aren't you doing so? I call factionalism on this one. If you scroll up a bit I've already said I think gom players are treated like shit. And if you read my post and misinterpreted it then you just got a confirmation on my opinion  So you are still sideless on this one.
I actually don't agree with what esf did.
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On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players.
Then why is KESPA having an OSL including the same players they don't want their guys playing against? They are not protecting their "merchandise" if they let the superior ESF players in OSL. They will still get smashed, but they'll get smashed where Kespa gets all the attention and profits.
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On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock.
Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players.
MVP lost to Naama in HSC, MKP played in MLG open bracket this weekend and lost to TriMaster... It didn't hurt their image at all.
Also GOM gave KeSPA 2 Code S seeds IIRC.
If they don't want to play vs "non-professional players" why did they sign agreement for cooperation in first place ? Why did they allow eSF players in OSL ? KeSPA plays pretty dirty game right now.
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On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand. Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to: now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. which is wrong. eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc. But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions. You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right? Show nested quote +
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to.
It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is,
"Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through".
Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'.
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On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand. Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to: now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. which is wrong. eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc. But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions. You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'.
I like your post.
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On August 27 2012 00:33 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Then why is KESPA having an OSL including the same players they don't want their guys playing against? There not protecting their "merchandise" if they let the superior ESF players in OSL. They will still get smashed, but they'll get smashed where Kespa gets all the attention and profits.
Sigh. OSL is NOT the same as KeSPA. Secondly, OSL was announced a very long time ago, no one could possibly guess how good or bad KeSPA players would be by the time the cross-org matches start. Also, KeSPA players are absolutely going to spend all of their free time preparing for each specific OSL match they have - something they can't do for GSL prelims; on top of that, OSL uses the maps from ladder / PL, GSL does not.
As for KeSPA getting attention and profits... They have NOTHING TO LOSE by playing in GSL. Again, OSL = OGN = NOT KeSPA. Also, OGN gets their viewers from a TV channel, GomTV gets theirs from online streams. KeSPA players played in WCS which was streamed by Gom btw without any complaints - why would they pull out of GSL if your arguments were true? It just makes no sense at all.
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On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand. Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to: now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. which is wrong. eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc. But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions. You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'.
Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL.
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On August 27 2012 00:34 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock.
Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. MVP lost to Naama in HMC, MKP played in MLG open bracket this weekend and lost to TriMaster... It didn't hurt their image at all. Also GOM gave KeSPA 2 Code S seeds IIRC. If they don't want to play vs "non-professional players" why did they sign agreement for cooperation in first place ? Why did they allow eSF players in OSL ? KeSPA plays pretty dirty game right now.
I'm pretty sure the KeSPA players will lose to "no name" players too, and in fact it will (or would, because they can't play in many tournaments) happen "too often" for some people. Even in BW upsets happened, even if very rarely (I think some happened at WCG for example).
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On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand. Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to: now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. which is wrong. eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc. But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions. You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'.
you have to blackmail kespa ... tehy not learn it any other way
kespa is known in destroy everything else (they did it successfull to gom in sc1) so its the ONLY way
eSF is a player organisation only founded with the ONE reason, to protect the players vs kespa !
kespa arent the players odf the kespa teams, kespa is an own selfish company they dont give a shit on foreign thigns and other organisations and perhaps they learn it this way, the only other way is blizzard dont allow t hem to run any t ouranmetns because blizzard can do that too ...
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On August 27 2012 00:34 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock.
Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. MVP lost to Naama in HMC, MKP played in MLG open bracket this weekend and lost to TriMaster... It didn't hurt their image at all. Also GOM gave KeSPA 2 Code S seeds IIRC. If they don't want to play vs "non-professional players" why did they sign agreement for cooperation in first place ? Why did they allow eSF players in OSL ? KeSPA plays pretty dirty game right now.
That's because these guys have been in the scene for over 2 years, everyone knows they are good; if they get knocked out of 1 tournament early, they have their past results to speak for themselves (and by the way, I don't know about right now as I've been too busy to follow this shit closely, but in the past, whenever a 'big' Korean name would lose to a foreigner, Korean forums would absolutely blow up with negative comments and trashtalk about that).
KeSPA players are just entering the scene, with the expectations of every BW fan who isn't sure about watching SC2 that they will do great and be the new champions. The difference between Flash not playing in GSL and losing in GSL may well be a loss of thousands of fans for KeSPA, while GSL loses literally NOTHING of what they already have if the KeSPA players skip one more season. They just want to get KeSPA's BW fans right now, and they feel like they can get away with anything because it's popular to hate on KeSPA as they are 'the big evil corporation'. Boo.
KeSPA spoke about cooperation because they understand both sides need to work together - but for that to be successful, both sides need to understand that they work in different ways, and be respectful for it - something eSF currently lacks. It's not like KeSPA actually broke any of their agreements so far.
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On August 27 2012 00:29 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Well, they are playing in WCS Korea and in the OSL and in both tournaments Kespa players meet (would have met) eSF players. I still think it's a bad decision. Not all Kespa players are elite-players and you could allow the non-established guys to get some chance at showing if they can compete. Of course Kespa has reasons to do what they do but in my opinion it is still wrong. I think I should stay out of discussion threads like this, I can't express my opinion as good as I want to in English :/
In OSL they meet the best and most known GSL players. Loosing to them isn't as bad as losing in code A preliminaries....
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On August 27 2012 00:39 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand. Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to: now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. which is wrong. eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc. But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions. You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'. Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL.
Stop being ignorant and reading only what you want to read. The players have a far better shot at being successful if they only prepare for one tournament, on maps they are familiar with, vs players who play in several events at the same time and might not be taking their games as seriously.
Of course getting smashed in OSL will hurt their image as well - but they have a much better chance of NOT getting smashed if they focus on one thing at a time; and OSL as an SC2 league was announced a good half a year ago. They don't have the option of backing out of it. If anything, OGN put KeSPA in a difficult spot by making it a mixed tournament so far in advance, but they have to go through with it - they don't have to go through with GSL.
Also, losing to MVP isn't exactly the same as losing to a random ladder player who might not even be on an official team in the preliminaries. Code A/S seeds weren't offered to KeSPA before they already announced their decision not to play in GSL.
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On August 27 2012 00:38 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:33 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Then why is KESPA having an OSL including the same players they don't want their guys playing against? There not protecting their "merchandise" if they let the superior ESF players in OSL. They will still get smashed, but they'll get smashed where Kespa gets all the attention and profits. Sigh. OSL is NOT the same as KeSPA. Secondly, OSL was announced a very long time ago, no one could possibly guess how good or bad KeSPA players would be by the time the cross-org matches start. Also, KeSPA players are absolutely going to spend all of their free time preparing for each specific OSL match they have - something they can't do for GSL prelims; on top of that, OSL uses the maps from ladder / PL, GSL does not. As for KeSPA getting attention and profits... They have NOTHING TO LOSE by playing in GSL. Again, OSL = OGN = NOT KeSPA. Also, OGN gets their viewers from a TV channel, GomTV gets theirs from online streams. KeSPA players played in WCS which was streamed by Gom btw without any complaints - why would they pull out of GSL if your arguments were true? It just makes no sense at all.
Ok, GOM = GSL = NOT ESF. Anyone who understood the game of Starcraft would be able to reasonably guess that the players could not possibly switch games between OSLs WHILE still playing hybrid proleague and still having to put a little practice time into BW. Their aren't enough major differences between the 1 or 2 maps PL doesn't you to warrant them backing out of an entire league.
Also, WCS was announced a VERY long time ago, even longer ago than OSL, and the map pool between WCS and PL was very similar. They played in both of those because they were announced a VERY long time ago, like you said with OSL before. Also, Blizzard(BUT NOT GOM, OR ESF) might have had something to do with that as well.
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On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players.
Bullshit. If they felt their players weren't ready to enter the GSL (which they withheld them from participating in earlier with this exact reason) then why the fuck would they say it's a scheduling issue? I mean, if you want to go on a bigger tangent and speculate that they 'don't want people knowing kespa players aren't that good yet,' then what the fuck is with the utter collapse in communication? ESF believes KeSPA is up to their shenanigans and has a gun to OGN's head with one day on the trigger and KeSPA can't clarify this?
Nothing but wishful, speculative bullshit.
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On August 27 2012 00:48 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:38 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:33 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Then why is KESPA having an OSL including the same players they don't want their guys playing against? There not protecting their "merchandise" if they let the superior ESF players in OSL. They will still get smashed, but they'll get smashed where Kespa gets all the attention and profits. Sigh. OSL is NOT the same as KeSPA. Secondly, OSL was announced a very long time ago, no one could possibly guess how good or bad KeSPA players would be by the time the cross-org matches start. Also, KeSPA players are absolutely going to spend all of their free time preparing for each specific OSL match they have - something they can't do for GSL prelims; on top of that, OSL uses the maps from ladder / PL, GSL does not. As for KeSPA getting attention and profits... They have NOTHING TO LOSE by playing in GSL. Again, OSL = OGN = NOT KeSPA. Also, OGN gets their viewers from a TV channel, GomTV gets theirs from online streams. KeSPA players played in WCS which was streamed by Gom btw without any complaints - why would they pull out of GSL if your arguments were true? It just makes no sense at all. Ok, GOM = GSL = NOT ESF. Anyone who understood the game of Starcraft would be able to reasonably guess that the players could not possibly switch games between OSLs WHILE still playing hybrid proleague and still having to put a little practice time into BW. Their aren't enough major differences between the 1 or 2 maps PL doesn't you to warrant them backing out of an entire league. Also, WCS was announced a VERY long time ago, even longer ago than OSL, and the map pool between WCS and PL was very similar. They played in both of those because they were announced a VERY long time ago, like you said with OSL before. Also, Blizzard(BUT NOT GOM, OR ESF) might have had something to do with that as well.
It matters for KeSPA players. They have a much better strategic preparation in comparison to GOM/ESF's counterpart. And they play better if they can focus on less matches, with predetermined opponents. Fact proven in BW many times beofre. Now if it is applicable for SC2 is still arguable. But you want to stick with your tradition anyways.
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On August 27 2012 00:51 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Bullshit. If they felt their players weren't ready to enter the GSL (which they withheld them from participating in earlier with this exact reason) then why the fuck would they say it's a scheduling issue? I mean, if you want to go on a bigger tangent and speculate that they 'don't want people knowing kespa players aren't that good yet,' then what the fuck is with the utter collapse in communication? ESF believes KeSPA is up to their shenanigans and has a gun to OGN's head with one day on the trigger and KeSPA can't clarify this? Nothing but wishful, speculative bullshit.
Wait, do you seriously expect they'd say, "we think our players are bad" in this situation? Lol.
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On August 27 2012 00:54 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:51 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Bullshit. If they felt their players weren't ready to enter the GSL (which they withheld them from participating in earlier with this exact reason) then why the fuck would they say it's a scheduling issue? I mean, if you want to go on a bigger tangent and speculate that they 'don't want people knowing kespa players aren't that good yet,' then what the fuck is with the utter collapse in communication? ESF believes KeSPA is up to their shenanigans and has a gun to OGN's head with one day on the trigger and KeSPA can't clarify this? Nothing but wishful, speculative bullshit. Wait, do you seriously expect they'd say, "we think our players are bad" in this situation? Lol.
They used that excuse for GSL3. They said they didn't think the players were ready to compete on the proper level yet. People accepted that excuse.
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On August 27 2012 00:54 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:51 rd wrote:On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Bullshit. If they felt their players weren't ready to enter the GSL (which they withheld them from participating in earlier with this exact reason) then why the fuck would they say it's a scheduling issue? I mean, if you want to go on a bigger tangent and speculate that they 'don't want people knowing kespa players aren't that good yet,' then what the fuck is with the utter collapse in communication? ESF believes KeSPA is up to their shenanigans and has a gun to OGN's head with one day on the trigger and KeSPA can't clarify this? Nothing but wishful, speculative bullshit. Wait, do you seriously expect they'd say, "we think our players are bad" in this situation? Lol.
No, they say "we aren't yet ready to enter GSL, but we'll be there at season 5. stop being batshit insane trying to destroy the OSL, thanks."
If KeSPA doesn't have the shadiest motivations, they have the absolute worst representatives communicating between them and ESF.
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On August 27 2012 00:51 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:23 Frankon wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. Cause Kespa is protecting their merchandise. They are supose to be elite players. So they cannot show bad games especially against some non-professional players (as in without pro-license). After WCS K qualifiers we were shown that they still need some time. Although the speed in which they were improving during the WCS korea was insane. Also as a premium product (Kespa players) its bad for their image to play from code A - thats why Kespa is requesting the code S seeds. Imagin MKP, MVP or MC going to some random tournament and meeting some random player (example: ActionJesus) and lose to him very badly. It would hurt their image and make them a laughing stock. Kespa doesnt wan't it to happen to their players. Bullshit. If they felt their players weren't ready to enter the GSL (which they withheld them from participating in earlier with this exact reason) then why the fuck would they say it's a scheduling issue? I mean, if you want to go on a bigger tangent and speculate that they 'don't want people knowing kespa players aren't that good yet,' then what the fuck is with the utter collapse in communication? ESF believes KeSPA is up to their shenanigans and has a gun to OGN's head with one day on the trigger and KeSPA can't clarify this? Nothing but wishful, speculative bullshit.
Who could have thought that ESF players are such amateurish assholes who would go as far as blackmailing people and pulling out of ongoing tournament? I certainly expected more than that from them. But I was wrong and KeSPA was also, I think. They had little experience dealing with such unprofessional impulse like that before. Can you blame them if they expected the ESF players were better pros?
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On August 27 2012 00:45 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 00:39 Wingblade wrote:On August 27 2012 00:34 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:28 karpo wrote:On August 27 2012 00:24 Sethronu wrote:On August 27 2012 00:21 Yello wrote:On August 27 2012 00:18 Quarz wrote:On August 27 2012 00:13 Yello wrote:On August 26 2012 23:58 Zanno wrote:On August 26 2012 23:48 Diizzy wrote:
yea kespa was in the wrong. but now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. why is this unreasonable MSL is gone, there is a big hole in the schedule compared to previous years They don't force them to play every season. The ESF wants Kespa to allow all their players to decide themselves if they want to play or do not want to play in the GSL. That's the difference. Kespa is forcing their players to not play GSL. Even the B-Teamers who could be really good at SC2 and also have the time to play some GSL but we will never know anything about them and they will never have the chance to earn some extra money because Kespa says no. eSF has not their own interests in mind. No they fight that Kespa-Players can earn extra-money in the GSL. Okay now i understand. Of course they have their own interests in mind. What I just said was a direct answer to: now esf is pushing it by making them play every season of gom. which is wrong. eSF wants Kespa players to play in GSL because of the hype and getting fans into GSL etc. But there's still a difference between forcing someone and giving someone a choice. Especially if Kespa is forcing their players not to play because of business decisions. You realize that right now eSF is trying to force KeSPA players to participate in GSL just as much as KeSPA forced them not to, and with far fewer reasons to make such demands, right?
For the better future of Korean E-sports, we politely ask Kespa players to participate in GSL and until Kespa decides to allow their players to join GSL without any problem, we have decided to pull our players from OSL.
Directly from eSF. Sounds alot less forceful than KeSPA deciding that none of their progamers can try out at the GSL even though several of them clearly wanted to, and there seems to be time enough to. It sounds less forceful because of how its worded. What it really means is, "Join GSL right now, or we boycott OSL and ruin the tournament that is already half way through". Also, if a player says 'I'd like to play in GSL', it doesn't even mean they actually believe it's the ideal thing for them to do - all it means is that they would like to do it. Of course they want to play in the biggest SC2 tourney against the best SC2 players there are right now. But, KeSPA is a much more unified organization than any other SC teams out there; if they decided that as a whole, having even some of their players participating in GSL isn't a good thing for their overall image right now, it makes sense for them to restrict their players from playing in it. In the current situation, every KeSPA player represents the whole organization, there is a very clearly defined segregation of 'us' and 'them', and they will absolutely do their best to show that 'us' are better than 'them'. Stop being ignorant and making this argument, I'm sick of reading this terrible argument over and over. The image of the players is getting damaged if they play in their own tournament and get destroyed by the ESF players anyways. I would actually argue that getting smashed in OSL on their turf is worse than getting smashed in GSL. Stop being ignorant and reading only what you want to read. The players have a far better shot at being successful if they only prepare for one tournament, on maps they are familiar with, vs players who play in several events at the same time and might not be taking their games as seriously. Of course getting smashed in OSL will hurt their image as well - but they have a much better chance of NOT getting smashed if they focus on one thing at a time; and OSL as an SC2 league was announced a good half a year ago. They don't have the option of backing out of it. If anything, OGN put KeSPA in a difficult spot by making it a mixed tournament so far in advance, but they have to go through with it - they don't have to go through with GSL. Also, losing to MVP isn't exactly the same as losing to a random ladder player who might not even be on an official team in the preliminaries. Code A/S seeds weren't offered to KeSPA before they already announced their decision not to play in GSL.
But the GSL players already have a worse workload than the KeSPA players. ESF players actually travel around the country, and play in OSL, AND play in WCS Korea. There's no reason the KeSPA players can't do one more local tourney when GSL players fly around the world.
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EPT
