eSports federation players defer OSL participation - Page 76

On August 25 2012 05:11 Ghos7Face wrote:
Just before I begin, let me say that I am by no means expert on the topic, but I have at least read almost the entire 73 page long thread and some things just don't quite make sense to me. Just please, don't flame me too much if I get something wrong

I am not entirely sure why so many people want to forever live back in the 1990's with BW and the KeSPA dominated scene?

A poster somewhere before me said it really well - BW was great game, but it thrived and survived in Korea for so long only because KeSPA wanted it to. And ye, I believe that is true. They could have done the same with other games as well, but they picked that one, for whatever reason.

Look at what BW was outside of Korea. It had fans, loyal fans, but that was pretty much the extend of it. No companies had any interest in backing up that sort of thing outside of Korea. Those people could only hope to maybe play against one of those super stars one day, they could only watch replays or shitty streams/videos, and the highlight of the year for them was WCG or some shitty small tournament in the middle of nowhere (sorry for the harsh language there). How can you really argue that this was better than what we have currently? A huge event almost every month, players flying across the entire world, playing for thousands (some even millions) of dollars, in front of crowds of thousands of people and hundreds of thousands more watching the live streams, multiple successful teams with many professional players, new sponsors entering the scene and bringing in a lot of money with them (hell, RedBull, a company that owns their own F1 team, something that so few companies can even dream about, is interested in our scene).Yet, I still see comments and people trying to defend KeSPA with their freaking TV channel (why would anyone outside of Korea give a damn about this one?), Korean sponsors and the awful dictatorship over the players they practically own. How does any of that make any sense to anyone?

Another point that I want to bring up is the shelf life of a game. Let's look at some of the other great games out there. CS 1.6 was without a doubt one of the best FPS games out there, played for so long and being really successful. In the end, people got bored of watching the same thing for years. Which is perfectly understandable. Eventually everyone gets bored of something. It might take you a few months, a few years, but in the end it will happen. What happened with Quake, another great game? The same exact thing. Why did those games not have a decent continuation? Because the companies did not stick with the game or because they tried to make something completely new, leaving out the things that actually made those games so amazing.

In the end, the same would have happened to BW too. Maybe not this year, or the next one, but it was going to happen, if it wasn't happening already, judging by what others have already said in this thread. Why was there the need to "torture" the game for so long instead of giving it a quick and honorable death and just transition to the new, much bigger overall SC2? Why did the whole thing had to drag out for so long and end with that shitty mix of BW and SC2?

Which leads to the final thing I want to mention - Blizzard. I have been playing Blizzard games for many years, and like most people, I don't always agree with them. But if there is one thing that we can be sure about is that they know how to make a great game that a lot of people will buy, like and play (ok, ok, D3 is somewhat of an exception, I admit). They made a new game, made it spectator friendly, gave it a modern feel and look but still kept that small thing that you can't really describe, the thing that makes StarCraft what is actually is - a great RTS game. Yea, sure, you can argue that it requires less skill, that it's not as hard or whatever else you want to argue about, but go back to the previous part of my post. Would you rather have the old situation with the "better" game or the current situation with the "inferior game"? Yea, I thought so too...

I read people saying that Blizzard are trying or were trying to kill eSports by enforcing the transition to SC2 and throwing BW out and so on, while in fact Blizzard (and the leagues that initially supported SC2) are probably the sole reason why the whole shit is as big as it is right now. Despite what some might think and say, without Blizzard and their support for the game probably none of this would have ever happened. Of course, they are by no means perfect, but nobody really is. However, they are at least doing something, they are still trying to improve, and that I believe is what really counts.

So in the end, I believe that all of us, as fans, Koreans, Americas or Europeans, have to stick together and support GOM/eSF on that one. GOM represents the new era of the global SC2 scene and the global eSports as whole that we have worked together to build over the past 2 years. KeSPA clearly does not care about the scene outside of Korea. They are just too greedy and focused on their own country to give a fuck about any of us. For this whole thing to grow even further, KeSPA either needs to change or leave the scene. We don't need their TV channel, we don't need their monopoly.

Oh ye, I almost forgot. Leave MLG alone, please. They are getting screwed over by KeSPA just as much as eSF is. Yet again not a single KeSPA player was allowed to come to MLG. The best thing right now would be for MLG to just pull the plug on that agreement if KeSPA keeps bullying them.

On August 25 2012 05:11 Ghos7Face wrote:
Just before I begin, let me say that I am by no means expert on the topic, but I have at least read almost the entire 73 page long thread and some things just don't quite make sense to me. Just please, don't flame me too much if I get something wrong

I am not entirely sure why so many people want to forever live back in the 1990's with BW and the KeSPA dominated scene?

A poster somewhere before me said it really well - BW was great game, but it thrived and survived in Korea for so long only because KeSPA wanted it to. And ye, I believe that is true. They could have done the same with other games as well, but they picked that one, for whatever reason.

Look at what BW was outside of Korea. It had fans, loyal fans, but that was pretty much the extend of it. No companies had any interest in backing up that sort of thing outside of Korea. Those people could only hope to maybe play against one of those super stars one day, they could only watch replays or shitty streams/videos, and the highlight of the year for them was WCG or some shitty small tournament in the middle of nowhere (sorry for the harsh language there). How can you really argue that this was better than what we have currently? A huge event almost every month, players flying across the entire world, playing for thousands (some even millions) of dollars, in front of crowds of thousands of people and hundreds of thousands more watching the live streams, multiple successful teams with many professional players, new sponsors entering the scene and bringing in a lot of money with them (hell, RedBull, a company that owns their own F1 team, something that so few companies can even dream about, is interested in our scene).Yet, I still see comments and people trying to defend KeSPA with their freaking TV channel (why would anyone outside of Korea give a damn about this one?), Korean sponsors and the awful dictatorship over the players they practically own. How does any of that make any sense to anyone?

Another point that I want to bring up is the shelf life of a game. Let's look at some of the other great games out there. CS 1.6 was without a doubt one of the best FPS games out there, played for so long and being really successful. In the end, people got bored of watching the same thing for years. Which is perfectly understandable. Eventually everyone gets bored of something. It might take you a few months, a few years, but in the end it will happen. What happened with Quake, another great game? The same exact thing. Why did those games not have a decent continuation? Because the companies did not stick with the game or because they tried to make something completely new, leaving out the things that actually made those games so amazing.

In the end, the same would have happened to BW too. Maybe not this year, or the next one, but it was going to happen, if it wasn't happening already, judging by what others have already said in this thread. Why was there the need to "torture" the game for so long instead of giving it a quick and honorable death and just transition to the new, much bigger overall SC2? Why did the whole thing had to drag out for so long and end with that shitty mix of BW and SC2?

Which leads to the final thing I want to mention - Blizzard. I have been playing Blizzard games for many years, and like most people, I don't always agree with them. But if there is one thing that we can be sure about is that they know how to make a great game that a lot of people will buy, like and play (ok, ok, D3 is somewhat of an exception, I admit). They made a new game, made it spectator friendly, gave it a modern feel and look but still kept that small thing that you can't really describe, the thing that makes StarCraft what is actually is - a great RTS game. Yea, sure, you can argue that it requires less skill, that it's not as hard or whatever else you want to argue about, but go back to the previous part of my post. Would you rather have the old situation with the "better" game or the current situation with the "inferior game"? Yea, I thought so too...

I read people saying that Blizzard are trying or were trying to kill eSports by enforcing the transition to SC2 and throwing BW out and so on, while in fact Blizzard (and the leagues that initially supported SC2) are probably the sole reason why the whole shit is as big as it is right now. Despite what some might think and say, without Blizzard and their support for the game probably none of this would have ever happened. Of course, they are by no means perfect, but nobody really is. However, they are at least doing something, they are still trying to improve, and that I believe is what really counts.

So in the end, I believe that all of us, as fans, Koreans, Americas or Europeans, have to stick together and support GOM/eSF on that one. GOM represents the new era of the global SC2 scene and the global eSports as whole that we have worked together to build over the past 2 years. KeSPA clearly does not care about the scene outside of Korea. They are just too greedy and focused on their own country to give a fuck about any of us. For this whole thing to grow even further, KeSPA either needs to change or leave the scene. We don't need their TV channel, we don't need their monopoly.

Oh ye, I almost forgot. Leave MLG alone, please. They are getting screwed over by KeSPA just as much as eSF is. Yet again not a single KeSPA player was allowed to come to MLG. The best thing right now would be for MLG to just pull the plug on that agreement if KeSPA keeps bullying them.

On August 25 2012 05:49 Jormundr wrote:


Most of us aren't saying that KeSPA needs to die. Not even the poster you are responding to is saying that. Most of the people on these forums would like to see a civil, mutually beneficial relationship between KeSPA and GOM/ESF. Unfortunately KeSPA still has a massive stick up its collective ass, and for that reason most of the foreign community would not really shed a tear if it died.

The big difference is that you seem to think KeSPA deserves the benefit of the doubt. Considering they are the ones who began this fiasco, and considering their previous history, as well as their laughable statement that they would let players into the GSL code A qualifiers next season + Show Spoiler +, there is no reason to give KeSPA the benefit of anything.

On August 25 2012 05:30 Salazarz wrote:


You're missing one very important thing here. During the Korean BW era, there was literally no incentive for KeSPA to attempt expanding outside of their country, and absolutely no reason to believe that there would be any interest in such attempts. There were no serious (compared to Korean, anyway) SC teams outside of their country, the amount of fans, while significant to you, was absolutely miniscule compared to the Korean viewer counts... it just makes absolutely no sense blaming them for not 'globalizing' BW back then, because the Western audience didn't have the kind of interest in it to warrant that.

And for all the good things you mention about current SC2 scene internationally, it is still far less stable and developed than even the early years of professional BW in Korea were. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that KeSPA is perfect or all their decisions were oh so great - but you can't deny that they managed to involve sponsors in a much greater way than ever, and provide a much more stable base for players and teams to develop than anyone else did. Compared to KeSPA team structure, the entire international scene does look like an amateur scene.

Would KeSPA getting a monopoly over Korean or, god forbid, global Starcraft be a good thing? Absolutely not. Are they actually trying to get such a monopoly? Probably not. To assume that they are oblivious to the international scene is foolish at best; they've been in this business for over a decade, and despite some questionnable decisions made in the past, they managed to achieve something no one else in the esports biz did. Give them the benefit of doubt - they can't reach their full potential success without GOM and international scene, but likewise can't GOM. To blindly claim "KESPA IS EVIL DIE DIE DIE" is ignorant, foolish, and really not helpful in any way.

On August 25 2012 05:30 Salazarz wrote:


You're missing one very important thing here. During the Korean BW era, there was literally no incentive for KeSPA to attempt expanding outside of their country, and absolutely no reason to believe that there would be any interest in such attempts. There were no serious (compared to Korean, anyway) SC teams outside of their country, the amount of fans, while significant to you, was absolutely miniscule compared to the Korean viewer counts... it just makes absolutely no sense blaming them for not 'globalizing' BW back then, because the Western audience didn't have the kind of interest in it to warrant that.

And for all the good things you mention about current SC2 scene internationally, it is still far less stable and developed than even the early years of professional BW in Korea were. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that KeSPA is perfect or all their decisions were oh so great - but you can't deny that they managed to involve sponsors in a much greater way than ever, and provide a much more stable base for players and teams to develop than anyone else did. Compared to KeSPA team structure, the entire international scene does look like an amateur scene.

Would KeSPA getting a monopoly over Korean or, god forbid, global Starcraft be a good thing? Absolutely not. Are they actually trying to get such a monopoly? Probably not. To assume that they are oblivious to the international scene is foolish at best; they've been in this business for over a decade, and despite some questionnable decisions made in the past, they managed to achieve something no one else in the esports biz did. Give them the benefit of doubt - they can't reach their full potential success without GOM and international scene, but likewise can't GOM. To blindly claim "KESPA IS EVIL DIE DIE DIE" is ignorant, foolish, and really not helpful in any way.

On August 25 2012 05:49 Jormundr wrote:


Most of us aren't saying that KeSPA needs to die. Not even the poster you are responding to is saying that. Most of the people on these forums would like to see a civil, mutually beneficial relationship between KeSPA and GOM/ESF. Unfortunately KeSPA still has a massive stick up its collective ass, and for that reason most of the foreign community would not really shed a tear if it died.

The big difference is that you seem to think KeSPA deserves the benefit of the doubt. Considering they are the ones who began this fiasco, and considering their previous history, as well as their laughable statement that they would let players into the GSL code A qualifiers next season + Show Spoiler +, there is no reason to give KeSPA the benefit of anything.

On August 25 2012 05:49 Jormundr wrote:


Most of us aren't saying that KeSPA needs to die. Not even the poster you are responding to is saying that. Most of the people on these forums would like to see a civil, mutually beneficial relationship between KeSPA and GOM/ESF. Unfortunately KeSPA still has a massive stick up its collective ass, and for that reason most of the foreign community would not really shed a tear if it died.

The big difference is that you seem to think KeSPA deserves the benefit of the doubt. Considering they are the ones who began this fiasco, and considering their previous history, as well as their laughable statement that they would let players into the GSL code A qualifiers next season + Show Spoiler +, there is no reason to give KeSPA the benefit of anything.

On August 25 2012 05:49 Jormundr wrote:


Most of us aren't saying that KeSPA needs to die. Not even the poster you are responding to is saying that. Most of the people on these forums would like to see a civil, mutually beneficial relationship between KeSPA and GOM/ESF. Unfortunately KeSPA still has a massive stick up its collective ass, and for that reason most of the foreign community would not really shed a tear if it died.

The big difference is that you seem to think KeSPA deserves the benefit of the doubt. Considering they are the ones who began this fiasco, and considering their previous history, as well as their laughable statement that they would let players into the GSL code A qualifiers next season + Show Spoiler +, there is no reason to give KeSPA the benefit of anything.

On August 25 2012 05:49 Jormundr wrote:


Most of us aren't saying that KeSPA needs to die. Not even the poster you are responding to is saying that. Most of the people on these forums would like to see a civil, mutually beneficial relationship between KeSPA and GOM/ESF. Unfortunately KeSPA still has a massive stick up its collective ass, and for that reason most of the foreign community would not really shed a tear if it died.

The big difference is that you seem to think KeSPA deserves the benefit of the doubt. Considering they are the ones who began this fiasco, and considering their previous history, as well as their laughable statement that they would let players into the GSL code A qualifiers next season + Show Spoiler +, there is no reason to give KeSPA the benefit of anything.

On August 25 2012 05:55 Salazarz wrote:


Err, a good half of the posts here are along the lines of, "fuck KeSPA", some of them paraphrased but not much. If people wanted to see a civil, mutually beneficial relationship between KeSPA and ESF, they wouldn't be excited about OSL being boycotted or claiming KeSPA "killed" foreign BW.

Saying that KeSPA "began this fiasco" is rather unfair if you consider all the circumstances without weighing in bias over whatever happened in the past. They are still playing 2 games at the same time, they are about to enter the most important part of ProLeague, they are playing the first ever OSL tournament in SC2, then they are told, 'hey there's GSL4 qualifiers in a week'. There was no proper scheduling, the whole thing with seeds wasn't communicated until after KeSPA announced they are not playing in Season4 qualifiers, and considering how highly they value preparation for individual matches, it's really not a big stretch to assume that the lack of time / difficulties in preparation IS in fact a legit reason for their pull out. After all, plenty of teams prohibited their players from participating in more than 1 individual league at a time in the past, and that was when they only had to play BW, and without ProLeague payoffs on the line. It's not unreasonable at all.

As for this 'previous history' of KeSPA... Again, it's not any more questionable or shady than any other major corporation in the world. They had bad decisions and they had good ones, most of the glaring mistakes they did, they have corrected afterwards. I know it's hip to hate on the 'suits', but most of the shit people attribute to them is either blown out of proportion or blatantly untrue. Like, the whole thing with KeSPA killing GOM leagues is literally laughable.

On August 25 2012 05:55 Salazarz wrote:


Err, a good half of the posts here are along the lines of, "fuck KeSPA", some of them paraphrased but not much. If people wanted to see a civil, mutually beneficial relationship between KeSPA and ESF, they wouldn't be excited about OSL being boycotted or claiming KeSPA "killed" foreign BW.

Saying that KeSPA "began this fiasco" is rather unfair if you consider all the circumstances without weighing in bias over whatever happened in the past. They are still playing 2 games at the same time, they are about to enter the most important part of ProLeague, they are playing the first ever OSL tournament in SC2, then they are told, 'hey there's GSL4 qualifiers in a week'. There was no proper scheduling, the whole thing with seeds wasn't communicated until after KeSPA announced they are not playing in Season4 qualifiers, and considering how highly they value preparation for individual matches, it's really not a big stretch to assume that the lack of time / difficulties in preparation IS in fact a legit reason for their pull out. After all, plenty of teams prohibited their players from participating in more than 1 individual league at a time in the past, and that was when they only had to play BW, and without ProLeague payoffs on the line. It's not unreasonable at all.

As for this 'previous history' of KeSPA... Again, it's not any more questionable or shady than any other major corporation in the world. They had bad decisions and they had good ones, most of the glaring mistakes they did, they have corrected afterwards. I know it's hip to hate on the 'suits', but most of the shit people attribute to them is either blown out of proportion or blatantly untrue. Like, the whole thing with KeSPA killing GOM leagues is literally laughable.

On August 25 2012 06:16 naastyOne wrote:

It is entirely your problem that you want to give Kespa the benefit of doubt.

THey had the contract. They knew GSL4 was there. they did let their players compete in WCS Korea.
There is SC2 OSL. The season 4 qualifires are not the typical foreign tournament, that is held ove a weekend, it is spaced in time, and to be fair, the KeSPA players are training SC2, so playing an extra match or two once a week doesn`t hurt preparation, if anything it boosts it.

What is more interesting, KeSPA players themselves, were willing to play in season 4.

The sheduling argument doesn`t holds water. At all.

On August 25 2012 06:16 Jormundr wrote:


KeSPA barred ALL of its players from attending the qualifiers. This includes players from teams who are not competing in proleague. This also includes B-teamers from all the teams who won't get face time in the playoffs anyway.

It's not like ESF is saying "We want Flash, Fantasy, Jaedong, Bisu, Fantasy, Jangbi, and FBH, or we won't play with you." ESF allowed the majority of its top players to play in OS2L (Because you know, they might win and it would be good for the players) in a gesture of good faith, and KeSPA says "Fuck you, we'll gladly take your viewers and fans and we won't even let the b-teamers who have been playing SC2 for a year have a chance at your qualifiers because that would legitimize you as our competition."

You're trying pretty hard to make KeSPA sound good, especially when you say they're not "any more questionable or shady than any other major corporation in the world." Does that mean they're right and we should accept it? No. We as a community have proven that we can change company policy, that we can affect the way Esports organizations are run, and even destroy them. If KeSPA is to remain the same as it has always been, then its death will be a good thing, as their entire business model is in opposition to the current Esports scene (Read: GSL, GSTL, IPL, MLG, Dreamhack, ASUS ROG, HSC, NASL, TSL, not to mention all of the ESF and foreign teams.)

To reiterate: If KeSPA cannot collaborate with these organizations instead of trying to stomp them out, then it will taste the fury of reddit and team liquid.

"KeSPA players will be presented at SC2 Proleague, OSL, WCG Korean representative qualifiers, WCS and MLG online matches, MLG final invitational. Their regular week schedule will be 4 days for Proleague, 2 days for OSL, 2days for MLG cross matches.
Therefore, KeSPA decided not to join GSL Season 4 because of their busy schedule."

On August 25 2012 06:22 Salazarz wrote:


A contract for what, play in GSL4 or else? Again, stop making shit up. There were no contracts and no promises about that. They let their players compete in WCS Korea because it's a one-time thing with Blizzard seeds given to them well in advance (don't tell me GSL offered them seeds as well, it was a last minute thing that was announced AFTER KeSPA had pulled out of it).

As for KeSPA players training for SC2 and an extra match or two not hurting preparation... You don't understand how these teams operate. They don't just come into a studio and play their game, then go home to practice some more. They have MULTIPLE PLAYERS prepare strategies for each specific map, each specific scenario for DAYS in advance. It's how they did that in BW, there's no reason to think they wouldn't do the same in SC2. Their focus on preparation is simply on another level from that of eSF or foreign players, that's how they were so good in BW, and it's fair to believe they will use their experience with such strict preparation to get good in SC2 as well. You can't ask them to 'just wing it', they have way too much on the line for that.

On August 25 2012 06:24 Salazarz wrote:


The B-teamers from all the teams who won't get face time in the playoffs anyway are hard at work practicing with the players who will. Why do you think these B-teamers are even there?

And you have to understand that as newcomers to the scene, the last thing KeSPA wants is to have 'some' teams send 'some' players into another major tournament. They are aliens on the SC2 stage, and it's quite obvious they are not exactly well-liked either. They are going through this transition together, and they aren't going to just send 1 or 2 guys here and there to please you or eSF; they will make the step as a single entity, and there really isn't anything wrong with that..