eSports federation players defer OSL participation - Page 77

Severedevil

United States4838 Posts

August 25 2012 04:20 GMT

#1521

On August 25 2012 13:17 mongmong wrote:

yep kespa teams are so professional that they dont even allow b-teamers who never get a chance to play at proleague to

even qualify for GSL.

If your play isn't good enough for TV, your job is to make it good enough for TV.

Not to fritter away your training hours on side competitions.

Dodgin

Canada39254 Posts

August 25 2012 04:38 GMT

#1522

On August 25 2012 13:20 Severedevil wrote:

Show nested quote +

If your play isn't good enough for TV, your job is to make it good enough for TV.

Not to fritter away your training hours on side competitions.

lol this is so ridiculous, you can practice for GSL and play in GSL and that will make you better, if you're not playing in proleague you don't have to practice a specific map or matchup.

Yoshi Kirishima

United States10324 Posts

August 25 2012 04:40 GMT

#1523

On August 25 2012 13:20 Severedevil wrote:

Show nested quote +

If your play isn't good enough for TV, your job is to make it good enough for TV.

Not to fritter away your training hours on side competitions.

Fritter away training hours? Even in GSTL, not every player is preparing for GSTL. Some are concentrating on one thing at a time, others aren't. Why is it that players like Nestea and MVP do so well in foreign events and GSL but not in GSTL, while other unknown players show great abilities in GSTL? Duh, because they weren't preparing for it!

Same with proleague. What other BW/SC2 events are there for people to do if they're not preparing for proleague? There's nothing, but they can prepare for GSL. It should be the player's/team's decision to choose if they want to play in GSL or not. They're adults, they can think for themselves. Kespa is sorta like a dictator here.

DrakeFZX3

United States925 Posts

August 25 2012 04:42 GMT

#1524

On August 25 2012 13:20 Severedevil wrote:

Show nested quote +

If your play isn't good enough for TV, your job is to make it good enough for TV.

Not to fritter away your training hours on side competitions.

You know what's a great way to get better other than practicing?

Live tournament experience. Any pro would tell you this.

johnnywup

United States3858 Posts

August 25 2012 04:44 GMT

#1525

any news on whether GSL players will remain boycotting osl?

NoobSkills

United States1597 Posts

August 25 2012 04:46 GMT

#1526

On August 25 2012 13:42 DrakeFZX3 wrote:

Show nested quote +

You know what's a great way to get better other than practicing?

Live tournament experience. Any pro would tell you this.

Maybe to get over the jitters, but if you ain't hot shit while practicing, you expect them to miraculously improve just because it is a live match? Nah, they're going to get stomped, because they're nervous, and shitty.

xBillehx

United States1289 Posts

August 25 2012 04:58 GMT

#1527

On August 25 2012 13:46 NoobSkills wrote:

Show nested quote +

What about the players who ARE hot shit, won't be playing in Proleague, WCG or WCS? All Flash has left is OSL and god forbid he doesn't make it past the Ro16 all he'll be able to do is.....online MLG matches? Sounds like an extremely busy schedule.

edit: I guess I should make it clear that I'm not specifically addressing you I just think it's lame a lot of players are really just getting shafted here. :\

StarStruck

25339 Posts

August 25 2012 05:09 GMT

#1528

On August 25 2012 13:38 Dodgin wrote:

Show nested quote +

lol this is so ridiculous, you can practice for GSL and play in GSL and that will make you better, if you're not playing in proleague you don't have to practice a specific map or matchup.

As ridiculous as it may sound there are players out there who say they have to WIN.

You have to be hungry. If you aren't hungry to win then your passion is probably misplaced.

Even Violet was preaching this before he got taken away from us. It's out of necessity that they get good results.

I agree that any competition is good competition, but we have to keep in mind the other mindsets players and management might have when it comes down to the wire.

Some players do build their careers around being that guy to snipe a certain player or race when it comes to the PL.

Lokian

United States699 Posts

August 25 2012 05:15 GMT

#1529

a little weird that so many teamliquidians are supporting kespa's move to not allow their playeres try out for the most established sc2 league out there; in their own neighborhood. I mean, do players even have any say or rights in kespa at all? I don't know what it takes for us to accept it, but its really feel toxic here while reading some of these messages.

Benjamin99

4176 Posts

August 25 2012 05:23 GMT

#1530

On August 25 2012 14:15 Lokian wrote:
a little weird that so many teamliquidians are supporting kespa's move to not allow their playeres try out for the most established sc2 league out there; in their own neighborhood. I mean, do players even have any say or rights in kespa at all? I don't know what it takes for us to accept it, but its really feel toxic here while reading some of these messages.

Yea, I don't understand that. If people really cares about starcraft in Korea and as a global Esport they should be fighting Kespa. I got no idea why some people support Kespa.

blade55555

United States17423 Posts

August 25 2012 05:37 GMT

#1531

Hope some information goes out to whether they are still going to boycott osl or not.

StarStruck

25339 Posts

August 25 2012 05:41 GMT

#1532

Many?

Are you actually reading the thread (I know it's a lot of pages) but even if you were skimming you would find it's not that many at all (even then this is only a small sample size) and there's a number of us who answered your questions already a few times. No, the players in KeSPA have no union and the decisions are based on management (managers have a little input, but it mostly stems from the KeSPA board of directors).

To be clear, I don't like the political bullshit at all myself but I do try to rationalize what people and organizations do.

Anyway, there are a number of logical explanations as to why they would do something like this. A lot of which have already been stated in this thread.

attackmoveftw

45 Posts

August 25 2012 05:42 GMT

#1533

On August 25 2012 14:23 Benjamin99 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yea, I don't understand that. If people really cares about starcraft in Korea and as a global Esport they should be fighting Kespa. I got no idea why some people support Kespa.

Because the western model of prize money mercenaries never made anything as stable and long lasting as the Kespa model? Because the western model is at the mercy of game companies like Blizzard who cares nothing about e-sports other than the lip-service they do in order to get more sales?

Zennith

United States795 Posts

August 25 2012 05:47 GMT

#1534

On August 25 2012 08:19 Salazarz wrote:

Show nested quote +

On August 25 2012 08:00 Jormundr wrote:

On August 25 2012 07:28 Salazarz wrote:

On August 25 2012 07:11 naastyOne wrote:

On August 25 2012 06:52 Herect wrote:

On August 25 2012 06:42 naastyOne wrote:
Here, is quite an insidefull quote of the thing called KeSPA.

They create a partnership, and player exchange possibilities. Then, they create a shedule:

"KeSPA players will be presented at SC2 Proleague, OSL, WCG Korean representative qualifiers, WCS and MLG online matches, MLG final invitational. Their regular week schedule will be 4 days for Proleague, 2 days for OSL, 2days for MLG cross matches.
Therefore, KeSPA decided not to join GSL Season 4 because of their busy schedule."

So, their players are bussy almost all the time, and therefore only aviable for KeSPA itself.

No magic, only the facts.

Not all the players play all days of the Week. MLG events aren't very often and OSL events don't use so many players. It's rare to a team play more than two times om ProLeague per Week.

Actually, even a very busy player won't play more than 4 days per Week.

Well, the KeSPA says they are too bussy.
The trick is, KeSPA desines the shedule for them.

So, is they wanted their players to participate, they could create shedule in a way that would allow it.

So, KeSPA`s excuse is absolutely ridiculous, since they actually created the sheduling problem in the first place, by overloading their players with KeSPA matches&duties.

There is no excuse for KeSPA.

On August 25 2012 06:54 Salazarz wrote:

On August 25 2012 06:45 Jormundr wrote:

On August 25 2012 06:22 Salazarz wrote:

On August 25 2012 06:16 naastyOne wrote:

On August 25 2012 05:55 Salazarz wrote:

On August 25 2012 05:49 Jormundr wrote:
[quote]

Most of us aren't saying that KeSPA needs to die. Not even the poster you are responding to is saying that. Most of the people on these forums would like to see a civil, mutually beneficial relationship between KeSPA and GOM/ESF. Unfortunately KeSPA still has a massive stick up its collective ass, and for that reason most of the foreign community would not really shed a tear if it died.

The big difference is that you seem to think KeSPA deserves the benefit of the doubt. Considering they are the ones who began this fiasco, and considering their previous history, as well as their laughable statement that they would let players into the GSL code A qualifiers next season + Show Spoiler +

Example: Hey you know I was gonna let you rent the apartment this month, and I know you already paid, but at least you can live in it next month!

, there is no reason to give KeSPA the benefit of anything.

Err, a good half of the posts here are along the lines of, "fuck KeSPA", some of them paraphrased but not much. If people wanted to see a civil, mutually beneficial relationship between KeSPA and ESF, they wouldn't be excited about OSL being boycotted or claiming KeSPA "killed" foreign BW.

Saying that KeSPA "began this fiasco" is rather unfair if you consider all the circumstances without weighing in bias over whatever happened in the past. They are still playing 2 games at the same time, they are about to enter the most important part of ProLeague, they are playing the first ever OSL tournament in SC2, then they are told, 'hey there's GSL4 qualifiers in a week'. There was no proper scheduling, the whole thing with seeds wasn't communicated until after KeSPA announced they are not playing in Season4 qualifiers, and considering how highly they value preparation for individual matches, it's really not a big stretch to assume that the lack of time / difficulties in preparation IS in fact a legit reason for their pull out. After all, plenty of teams prohibited their players from participating in more than 1 individual league at a time in the past, and that was when they only had to play BW, and without ProLeague payoffs on the line. It's not unreasonable at all.

As for this 'previous history' of KeSPA... Again, it's not any more questionable or shady than any other major corporation in the world. They had bad decisions and they had good ones, most of the glaring mistakes they did, they have corrected afterwards. I know it's hip to hate on the 'suits', but most of the shit people attribute to them is either blown out of proportion or blatantly untrue. Like, the whole thing with KeSPA killing GOM leagues is literally laughable.

It is entirely your problem that you want to give Kespa the benefit of doubt.

THey had the contract. They knew GSL4 was there. they did let their players compete in WCS Korea.
There is SC2 OSL. The season 4 qualifires are not the typical foreign tournament, that is held ove a weekend, it is spaced in time, and to be fair, the KeSPA players are training SC2, so playing an extra match or two once a week doesn`t hurt preparation, if anything it boosts it.

What is more interesting, KeSPA players themselves, were willing to play in season 4.

The sheduling argument doesn`t holds water. At all.

A contract for what, play in GSL4 or else? Again, stop making shit up. There were no contracts and no promises about that. They let their players compete in WCS Korea because it's a one-time thing with Blizzard seeds given to them well in advance (don't tell me GSL offered them seeds as well, it was a last minute thing that was announced AFTER KeSPA had pulled out of it).

As for KeSPA players training for SC2 and an extra match or two not hurting preparation... You don't understand how these teams operate. They don't just come into a studio and play their game, then go home to practice some more. They have MULTIPLE PLAYERS prepare strategies for each specific map, each specific scenario for DAYS in advance. It's how they did that in BW, there's no reason to think they wouldn't do the same in SC2. Their focus on preparation is simply on another level from that of eSF or foreign players, that's how they were so good in BW, and it's fair to believe they will use their experience with such strict preparation to get good in SC2 as well. You can't ask them to 'just wing it', they have way too much on the line for that.

On August 25 2012 06:24 Salazarz wrote:

On August 25 2012 06:16 Jormundr wrote:

On August 25 2012 05:55 Salazarz wrote:

Example: Hey you know I was gonna let you rent the apartment this month, and I know you already paid, but at least you can live in it next month!

, there is no reason to give KeSPA the benefit of anything.

KeSPA barred ALL of its players from attending the qualifiers. This includes players from teams who are not competing in proleague. This also includes B-teamers from all the teams who won't get face time in the playoffs anyway.

It's not like ESF is saying "We want Flash, Fantasy, Jaedong, Bisu, Fantasy, Jangbi, and FBH, or we won't play with you." ESF allowed the majority of its top players to play in OS2L (Because you know, they might win and it would be good for the players) in a gesture of good faith, and KeSPA says "Fuck you, we'll gladly take your viewers and fans and we won't even let the b-teamers who have been playing SC2 for a year have a chance at your qualifiers because that would legitimize you as our competition."

You're trying pretty hard to make KeSPA sound good, especially when you say they're not "any more questionable or shady than any other major corporation in the world." Does that mean they're right and we should accept it? No. We as a community have proven that we can change company policy, that we can affect the way Esports organizations are run, and even destroy them. If KeSPA is to remain the same as it has always been, then its death will be a good thing, as their entire business model is in opposition to the current Esports scene (Read: GSL, GSTL, IPL, MLG, Dreamhack, ASUS ROG, HSC, NASL, TSL, not to mention all of the ESF and foreign teams.)

To reiterate: If KeSPA cannot collaborate with these organizations instead of trying to stomp them out, then it will taste the fury of reddit and team liquid.

The B-teamers from all the teams who won't get face time in the playoffs anyway are hard at work practicing with the players who will. Why do you think these B-teamers are even there?

And you have to understand that as newcomers to the scene, the last thing KeSPA wants is to have 'some' teams send 'some' players into another major tournament. They are aliens on the SC2 stage, and it's quite obvious they are not exactly well-liked either. They are going through this transition together, and they aren't going to just send 1 or 2 guys here and there to please you or eSF; they will make the step as a single entity, and there really isn't anything wrong with that..

Your profile says you live in germany. Is that incorrect? By the insights you're giving us into the inner workings of each KeSPA team and the internal decisions of KeSPA I would assume that you're at least a mid- to high-level official of KeSPA living in Korea. Ok, B-teamers are working day and night as practice partners, you got me there. But this 'single entity' stuff? Seriously, if that was the reason they weren't letting players play in GSL, then they probably shouldn't be allowed to represent their players.

I've been following Starcraft since first OSL, and the reasonings behind their decisions seem pretty obvious. You have to realize that while every KeSPA team wants to be the best team (duh, obvious isn't it?), the job of KeSPA as an association is to make sure that never truly happens, and that every team remains relevant. It's been this way since KeSPA was first formed, and that's the major difference from international / GOM teams that they have - which, in my opinion, is the right way to run things btw. They know that they have to maintain a certain amount of teams for the competition to be interesting, and they know they can't have one or two teams get too much exposure compared to other teams. It's not exactly a 'free market' or a democracy, which is why they were often called out as too oppressive - but it's what allowed their scene to thrive and enjoy the massive sponsorships spread well across a number of teams.

Strange, how did the entire SC2 scene appeared, without the oppression of the wise and all knowing organisation that KeSPA is?

And it is not just SC2 scene that is runned in the same manner, pretty much any western sport scene is. And, i do not see any problems with it.

Almost every country has it`s own league/gues. Than, on top of that, there are international ones. And there are nation vs nation ones. And they are working fine, without all any oppresion and attempts to equalise the quality of teams at any level.

Wait, so now KeSPA is bad because ProLeague and OSL which they've been running for 10+ years and which is literally the reason they exist is more important to them than GSL? What the hell, do you even stop to think before pressing the 'post' button? All their sponsorships and majority of their fanbase hinges on these events, of course they are going to make that a priority - and again, there was no early communication from GSL at all, it's not like GSL said, 'hey we'd like to see your players in our tournament' or something.

As for your second point... the entire SC2 scene is still far more volatile and amateur-ish compared to KeSPA BW scene. Of course it wasn't around for as long, but it's kind of hard to say whether it's going in a better way. We keep seeing complaints about how difficult it is for a new player to break out, we keep seeing the whine about washed out 'stars' who bring nothing in terms of games getting invited to premier tourneys over and over, there's all this drama with player poaching, lack of clearly defined contracts, lack of stability for progamers - tons of issues that were long solved on the KeSPA side of things. Now, I'm not trying to say that KeSPA are the only ones who know how to make progaming work, or that the international scene is somehow worse - but you can't deny that KeSPA are the ones who made what most international teams can only dream of - major, long-term sponsorships from serious companies that give them real budgets and security to look forward a few years, rather than living from tournament paycheck to tournament paycheck. They obviously know SOMETHING about making things work, and it's rather insane to demand they change their ways, because some posters on TL or reddit said so.

And your comparison to 'real' sports makes no sense at all. Premier clubs don't play exhibition matches in the middle of a season, and to even suggest they should 'make room' in their schedule for extra cups or tournaments while their main event is ongoing is ridiculous. The schedules are always prepared months in advance, and the 'home' leagues are absolutely the most important thing for every team.

Responding to the bolded parts in order.
First: Are you a KeSPA or GomTV executive? If not, quit telling us what goes on in the KeSPA camp. I know you want to make KeSPA out to be the saviour of esports, but making up facts kind of makes you look like a hopeless fanboy.

Second: How is it amateurish? The fact is that globally SC2 provides a living for far more progamers than KeSPA does. You say the scene is volatile. I agree. The players who do well for a while and then slump don't get favorable renewals on their contracts. Idra is a wonderful example. Foreign teams have sprung up which can provide 20k salaries to many players (this is larger than many KeSPA players who only earn ~$400 a month).

Third: Whining is whining. Seeding in MLG is MLG's business, and they've adapted their system to make it more reasonable. MAYBE KeSPA COULD DO THE SAME THING! You talk about the difficulty new players have trying to break out. I can promise you, having followed BW for 8 years that it has been far harder to break into BW than it is to break into SC2. Contracts being broken is not something that KeSPA fixed, they just rule their own players with an iron fist.

Fourth: KeSPA does not "obviously" know anything about making anything work. They succeeded in BW because they aggressively created a xenophobic monopoly. They have moved into a new market and it's rather insane to expect that they should be allowed to do the whole thing over again in a sport that they have shunned in the past.

Wait, I'm sorry - you think 10K in two years is ANYTHING? It isn't, not even slightly.

The truth is Sc2 is actually far more sustainable because it is global, with a global infrastructure, which allows for professional players who actually make a REAL LIVING, not 5K a year.

What facts am I making up? And how can you claim that globally SC2 provides a living for far more progamers than KeSPA does with a straight face while saying that *I* am the one making stuff up? There are ~120 players who made 10k$ or more according to SC2 earnings site, over the course of over 2 years. Of course, that site only counts tournament winnings, but we all know there aren't exactly many players in SC2 who get any significant salaries, nvm players without tournament results. (Yes, I know there are people like InControl and Destiny but there's maybe a dozen of these at most). KeSPA teams house around 15 players on average; 400$ a month works out to 10k in 2 years, and 15x8 is, surprise, pretty close to that 120 number.

So, as far as I can tell, despite KeSPA teams being at their lowest point right now, seems like they are providing a living for a very comparable amount of progamers as THE REST OF THE WORLD does. Of course if the scene continues to develop, this might change eventually, but the way international scene works is that a small amount of players at the top is rewarded, the rest - well, at least they can hope to get lucky one day. At least in the KeSPA system, if you manage to get a progamer license, you're nearly guaranteed to be able to eke out a living out of it for a number of years without having to worry about having a roof over your head and food in your plate. As for your example of slumping players getting favourable renewals on their contracts... give me a break. Idra and InControl are hardly the norm of how things work in the foreign scene. You could even say, EG as a whole is an exception, as they are one of the very few teams who actually have a reasonable budget (which by the way, is still way below that of any of the KeSPA teams, and as the recent drama around Orb has proven, very volatile). And where are you getting your 20k+ salaries in foreign teams from, lol. It's not like that's a common thing in the foreign scene so far - and it's not like the KeSPA A-team players don't make same or higher amounts. Stop making things up, eh.

How is KeSPA being unreasonable with seeding into their tournaments? They gave half the spots in OSL to outside players, while they themselves are still in the midst of transition. Seems reasonable enough to me. You're expecting them to simply dissolve all of their past practices and throw whatever accumulated experience they have to the wind and just, I don't know, demolish all of the infrastructure they have. That's not reasonable at all.

And what the fuck do you mean, KeSPA doesn't know about making things work. Xenophobic monopoly, what a joke.

Honestly. This is just dumb.

neptunusfisk

2286 Posts

August 25 2012 05:52 GMT

#1535

Can't they just cancel everything and play other games than Starcraft? This is just silly.

zanga

659 Posts

August 25 2012 05:57 GMT

#1536

All these funky business deals and license ideas all the time.

I blame Blizzard for fucking it up from day 1 of brood war... T___T

Severedevil

United States4838 Posts

August 25 2012 06:08 GMT

#1537

On August 25 2012 14:52 neptunusfisk wrote:
Can't they just cancel everything and play other games than Starcraft? This is just silly.

Watch Valve issue Dota 2 beta keys to every progaming house.

Benjamin99

4176 Posts

August 25 2012 06:32 GMT

#1538

On August 25 2012 14:42 attackmoveftw wrote:

Show nested quote +

Atleast post with you main if you want to have a real discussion about you hilarious claim

Caihead

Canada8550 Posts

August 25 2012 06:47 GMT

#1539

So.... eSports federation is pulling out just to be a dick in response to kespa being a dick which is opinion but not a fact. This is real mature and shows great prospects for the future of SC2 in korea =_=

Yoshi Kirishima

United States10324 Posts

August 25 2012 06:49 GMT

#1540

On August 25 2012 15:47 Caihead wrote:
So.... eSports federation is pulling out just to be a dick in response to kespa being a dick which is opinion but not a fact. This is real mature and shows great prospects for the future of SC2 in korea =_=

wat

ESF is forcing kespa to play nice, so in the end they'll both play nice. ESF is standing up to the bully, Kespa, which are the douchebags and have been for quite a while.

ESF's move is not a dick move at all. Kespa was basically calling for it.

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