EPTWhy doesn't Zerg use Contaminate? - Page 16
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On August 14 2012 01:34 SoniC_eu wrote: I don't understand why Zerg don't use contaminate on Factories/Robo bays...like seriously delaying a tank/colossus for 30 secs can mean defeat or victory in close games. It's def. worth the APM it would cost to use... I mean, they don't need to atm in the current metagame | ||
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Soohard
19 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On August 14 2012 01:46 Soohard wrote: Zerg needs a good 300 APM, they already do so much, you basically need to be a top tier zerg in the world. If you are maybe masters league and try to use contaminate then you might miss tumors, injects, units, watching out for drops, and just other silly things. tumors and injects are repetitive things that everyone of every race needs to do, units/drops/etc are stuff that everyone needs to do. I don't understand why this makes zergs special. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On August 14 2012 01:50 Chaggi wrote: tumors and injects are repetitive things that everyone of every race needs to do, units/drops/etc are stuff that everyone needs to do. I don't understand why this makes zergs special. So true, Protoss gets shit on for being an easy race but I think it's a huge disadvantage to have to look at a pylon to build combat units while the other two races don't. Compound this with the fact that if you are in battle losing units you have to look away to warp in more while your opponent, if not Protoss, can focus just on the battle and spend a few thoughtless moments hitting a few hotkeys. I can't just hit a hotkey to build a pylon or supply depot, I actually have to look at a worker and place it. Zergs don't need to look at their base to do anything repetitive but injects/tumors. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On August 14 2012 01:34 SoniC_eu wrote: I don't understand why Zerg don't use contaminate on Factories/Robo bays...like seriously delaying a tank/colossus for 30 secs can mean defeat or victory in close games. It's def. worth the APM it would cost to use... Because what you are postulating is completely overblown; games can't be won based on the contaminate ability. You don't have enough energy to delay much of anything, and if you do, it means you have too many overseers and no gas for decent units needed to defend a simple push. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On August 13 2012 23:38 zmansman17 wrote: I think Zergs should use contaminate a lot more. Get 5 overseers and slime the hell out of mech Terran, or double Robo Protoss. There's no good excuse why this isn't done more other than convenience. Since most Zerg players are already winning with much more basic, less micro-intensive strategies. In my experience, this doesn't even take much time to do, nor does it take many resources. Overseers got buffed, so they cost even less and yet this still isn't being done. I think it boils down to this. Zergs dont need to change at the moment, maybe later down the line in HOTS we will see it used more as people minmax and use those Overseers more. Fuck, we did not see dark swarm/defilers used for quite a while in broodwar which is so weird considering how sick it makes zerg lategame in that game. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
Summary: — Can't be used until maybe 11 minutes into the game for economical builds, maybe somewhat earlier for 2 base tech builds (which never really occurs at high level though) — Delays production of something (no cost to the opponent) for a cost of the user of 50/50. — Reduces the number of transporting and creep-spreading overlords Looking into the 2nd point into more depth, it takes 222 seconds to regenerate enough energy to disable a building for 30 seconds, so slightly over 7 overseers to disable one building constantly. 7 overseers obviously costs 350/350. Mathematically/logically speaking it's almost never in a zerg's best interest to be using an ability that is so inefficient. — The opponent will find other ways to spend their money — upgrades, other unit production, or maybe just wait it out (which is viable since the zerg has 50 less minerals and gas that he could use in an attacking army) — The opponent will likely catch on to the overseers during or after the first one is used, making loss of overseers and/or inability to contaminate much more probable after doing it a few times. If they have defense vs mutalisks, they may not need to build any more defense at all to deal with overseers. In games where the opponent gets medivacs and stimmed marines, phoenixes, blink stalkers, or even vikings, getting overseers will put the zerg in potentially pretty deep trouble. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On August 14 2012 16:38 Xapti wrote: Man... there's still so many idiots who aren't reading any (or enough) or the explanations/answers as to why contaminate isn't being used. Summary: — Can't be used until maybe 11 minutes into the game for economical builds, maybe somewhat earlier for 2 base tech builds (which never really occurs at high level though) — Delays production of something (no cost to the opponent) for a cost of the user of 50/50. — Reduces the number of transporting and creep-spreading overlords Looking into the 2nd point into more depth, it takes 222 seconds to regenerate enough energy to disable a building for 30 seconds, so slightly over 7 overseers to disable one building constantly. 7 overseers obviously costs 350/350. Mathematically/logically speaking it's almost never in a zerg's best interest to be using an ability that is so inefficient. — The opponent will find other ways to spend their money — upgrades, other unit production, or maybe just wait it out (which is viable since the zerg has 50 less minerals and gas that he could use in an attacking army) — The opponent will likely catch on to the overseers during or after the first one is used, making loss of overseers and/or inability to contaminate much more probable after doing it a few times. If they have defense vs mutalisks, they may not need to build any more defense at all to deal with overseers. In games where the opponent gets medivacs and stimmed marines, phoenixes, blink stalkers, or even vikings, getting overseers will put the zerg in potentially pretty deep trouble. Yes, delaying the normal unit production is not that useful but contaminate can seriously disrupt timings. ZvP: If you scouted that the opposing protoss is building up for a timing push, a contaminate on his immortal/colossus production or even the range upgrade can delay his push by 30 seconds, giving you another 30s to get units to defend and maybe finish some critical upgrades. He won't attack without the units he is waiting for, even if he replaces them with warpgate units. You pay 50/50 and get a lot of time in return. ZvT: If it really denies repair (i haven't seen that and haven't tested it) then yes, it can be great to snipe Planetary Fortresses, but it's too situational. ZvZ: Contaminate on hatcheries is so extremely strong in the matchup where every larva counts. Contaminate, build lots of Units and attack 30-60s later for an big timing and he doesn't have the larva to defend. The reason why it's not used is because there are so many other areas where progamers still have to improve and there was no noteable pro who used contaminate regularly instead of just as a 1-game gambit. Think Ultralisks, noone used them except to lose won games until one pro started using them properly and suddenly they are a common sight and are now considered viable. | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
I also do believe people do use contaminate in some situations. I will always use it if the corrupters are the core of my army. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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ReaperCo
Sweden46 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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lullaby
27 Posts
On August 14 2012 16:59 Morfildur wrote: Think Ultralisks, noone used them except to lose won games until one pro started using them properly and suddenly they are a common sight and are now considered viable. Wrong. They were not used -> got buffed -> used -> got nerfed -> noone used them -> got slightly buffed again -> viable Nothing to do with some magician using bad ultras like a bonjwa | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote: why do terrans not use Ravens? much more important question Because we can't morph our supply depots into them. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3487 Posts
What interests me about contaminate and the fact that the unit is supply cost free is.. There's specific timings, where this would just be so crucial. 1) Delaying mothership, when you're already maxed. 2) You see the protoss air transition, when he battles to free up supply, send in like 20 overseers and just contaminate any stargate. 3) delay upgrades on timings attacks 4) Planetary Fortress 5) Stop orbitals from lifting, killing with ultras or w/e 6) ZvZ, delay enemy lair, burrow roach rush Just on top of my head. | ||
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Azera
3800 Posts
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
On August 14 2012 19:04 ejozl wrote: For me it's not just about using contaminate once in a game, that is something any zerg should do, when they have energy for it, but that's just not game changing. What interests me about contaminate and the fact that the unit is supply cost free is.. There's specific timings, where this would just be so crucial. 1) Delaying mothership, when you're already maxed. 2) You see the protoss air transition, when he battles to free up supply, send in like 20 overseers and just contaminate any stargate. 3) delay upgrades on timings attacks 4) Planetary Fortress 5) Stop orbitals from lifting, killing with ultras or w/e 6) ZvZ, delay enemy lair, burrow roach rush Just on top of my head. 1) You have to find the nexus the mothership is made in, avoid any defense and contaminate. Nice if you get it work but a 30s delayed mothership isnt a big deal as you are most probable already maxed and waiting for toss to move out. 2) If they transist, they do it before and while fighting. A single Phoenix, VR, Carrier kills your entire Overseer "fleet" (and 1000 gas + 160 Supply with it) 3) there is not timing to delay with contaminate, as your first contaminate (if you used no changeling, which you most certainly will!) comes at around 11 or 12 Minutes in the game. 4) What? Planetary Fortress? It doesnt stop if from shooting and it doesnt prevent repair, so what would you do with a planetary? 5) Contaminate doesnt prevent lifting 6) To do that, your enemys lair must be WAY later than yours. About 2 or 3 minutes later. Wont happen. | ||
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3487 Posts
1) You have to find the nexus the mothership is made in, avoid any defense and contaminate. Nice if you get it work but a 30s delayed mothership isnt a big deal as you are most probable already maxed and waiting for toss to move out. 2) If they transist, they do it before and while fighting. A single Phoenix, VR, Carrier kills your entire Overseer "fleet" (and 1000 gas + 160 Supply with it) 3) there is not timing to delay with contaminate, as your first contaminate (if you used no changeling, which you most certainly will!) comes at around 11 or 12 Minutes in the game. 4) What? Planetary Fortress? It doesnt stop if from shooting and it doesnt prevent repair, so what would you do with a planetary? 5) Contaminate doesnt prevent lifting 6) To do that, your enemys lair must be WAY later than yours. About 2 or 3 minutes later. Wont happen. Just like the Colossus is a bad units, because of Vikings/Corruptors. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
Contaminate was used when it was 75 energy, that meant you could actually delay a toss 2 base timing, or even a crucial terran upgrade (stim, CS, siegemode) or "just" upgrades. But with 125 energy, all this is already done when you have enough to contaminate. Besides that the changeling is far superior. Thats like saying "why do you feedback the medivac? Storm it!". Its not the overseer is not used (it is), its contaminate thats underused because it becomes available too late and is inferior to the other spell | ||
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