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On August 13 2012 06:26 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 06:19 Squeegy wrote:On August 13 2012 06:13 Funkydonky wrote:On August 13 2012 05:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 13 2012 05:11 dafunk wrote:On August 13 2012 05:07 Lorch wrote:On August 13 2012 05:05 Rhaegar_tar wrote:On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote:
Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time. Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis. I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo. ahah sure. So when the best of the best say you're the best, it doesn't mean anything. Mondragon never won any international tournament with koreans. Stephano won like 4 or 5. Stephano has more achievements than Mondragon. /closed The gap between Koreans and foreigners was over 25x what it is in SC2. In SCBW you'd be lucky if ANY foreigner could take a single game off a an A-caliber (NOT S caliber) level player, even if they played them 10x. Gap was big because they were much worse. It's as simple as that. It's really funny to even compare foreign BW to todays SC2 accomplishments, just look at your foreign bw heroes and how they are doing in sc2. Well, a team composed of former foreign BW players is pretty much even with any other foreign team you can compose (if you don't include Stephano). Two of your favourite players thereare previously from foreign BW. I think foreign BW players are doing quite well in fact. Ok ill bite. Thorzain Naniwa Nerchio Scarlet Sase Kas Lucifron And I just named a few please make a foreign BW team that could even take a map of these gents and ladies. Fact is all the old BW players was amateurs they didnt make a living of BW. Today the new generation of professional starcraft 2 players are in a completely different level simply becuase they are all professional.
Okay, I'll try:
Nerchio (yes, he's from BW)
Sen
Mana
Ret
SortOf
Fraer
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Lee Hoi Chang?
Really lol...
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wtf is that bw vs wc3 talk here... we have 2012 guys oO
also, its obvious that wc3 players do better outside of korea, simply cause there were more of them on a high level. same goes for bw players in korea, although its far more extreme there
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dont forget that most of the "better" BW players (foreign) hasnt even switched or plays fulltime.
Xiaozi,
Testie,
IefNaij,
mondragon (no i dont count mondragon since he studied while he played),
Dreiven
Draco
Infernal
Castro
Squall
Alfa
Well to go far back
Eriador
SataniK
Fisheye
elky
Blackman
There are so many T_T
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On August 13 2012 06:38 Squeegy wrote:
Gap was big because they were much worse. It's as simple as that.
It's really funny to even compare foreign BW to todays SC2 accomplishments, just look at your foreign bw heroes and how they are doing in sc2.
Uhm, majority of the top SC2 players were former B-team SC:BW players.
Had Jaedong, Flash, Bisu started playing SC2 from the beginning, who knows how things would have turned out for the current SC2 top players. It's all speculation, but don't talk about SC:BW when you obviously know NOTHING about it. In the beginning of SC:BW, foreigners (eg: Grrrr, Elky) were keeping up and beating the top Korean players, much like how Stephano is doing today. If Stephano can keep it up for four years as the Korean SC2 scene progresses then you can say he out-performed Mondragon.
Stephano is, without a doubt, the best foreign player, but I wouldn't say he's a top 5 player in the world. I'd put DRG, MC, MVP, and some other Korean Terrans ahead of him. What you don't understand is that 4-6 years from now, if SC2 follows the same popularity pattern as SC:BW - not happening at the moment though - there will be 30+ replicas of MC, DRG and MVP in the Korean scene. Suddenly, Stephano won't even be in the top 30 anymore.
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On August 13 2012 06:54 elKaDor wrote:
dont forget that most of the "better" BW players (foreign) hasnt even switched or plays fulltime.
Xiaozi,
Testie,
IefNaij,
mondragon (no i dont count mondragon since he studied while he played),
Dreiven
Draco
Infernal
Castro
Squall
Alfa
Well to go far back
Eriador
SataniK
Fisheye
elky
Blackman
There are so many T_T
i could make a list for wc3 as well :/
but ye, bw players were "older" and therefore less switched over as well.
here a fun math including my foreigner ranking if anyone is interested
+ Show Spoiler +look at my ranking and take it as "fact" for one second. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=358614we have: purely Wc3:#1 #2 #3 #6 #8 #10 #11 #16 #17 #18 #23 #24 #27 purely BW:#4 #5 #7 #9 #12 #13 #14 #18 #19 #20 #25 #29 others, none or both quite equally: #21 #22 #26 #28 #30 so we have an edge for wc3 players here. if i take my point-system (as i did for races and teams), it would be: Wc3: 190,5BW: 157
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On August 13 2012 06:59 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 06:54 elKaDor wrote:
dont forget that most of the "better" BW players (foreign) hasnt even switched or plays fulltime.
Xiaozi,
Testie,
IefNaij,
mondragon (no i dont count mondragon since he studied while he played),
Dreiven
Draco
Infernal
Castro
Squall
Alfa
Well to go far back
Eriador
SataniK
Fisheye
elky
Blackman
There are so many T_T
i could make a list for wc3 as well :/ but ye, bw players were "older" and therefore less switched over as well. here a fun math including my foreigner ranking if anyone is interested + Show Spoiler +look at my ranking and take it as "fact" for one second. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=358614we have: purely Wc3:#1 #2 #3 #6 #8 #10 #11 #16 #17 #18 #23 #24 #27 purely BW:#4 #5 #7 #9 #12 #13 #14 #18 #19 #20 #25 #29 others, none or both quite equally: #21 #22 #26 #28 #30 so we have an edge for wc3 players here. if i take my point-system (as i did for races and teams), it would be: Wc3: 190,5BW: 157
I think the point is mostly that WC3 had it's Grubbys and Moons switch. A lot of the guys people consider the most talented from BW didn't, and those who did, seem not to have really went all-in so to speak.
Also. Morrow and SortOf are from BW, so if I fixed your caluclations correctly, the numbers would be 180 and 176.
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On August 13 2012 06:33 Cinim wrote:to Benjamin, Liquidret, Sen, Killer, Mana, White-ra and Strelok. For sure, they aren't nearly as strong, although you could have easy made a better team(Scarlet? really? lol) But I'm sure they could take a game 
I just picked some random players I knew who wasnt BW players hehe. But my point was you cant compare the BW scene to the starcraft 2 scene. Most of the foreign players in starcraft 2 is professional players who do this for a living.
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I think it's good that Stephano is going to Korea. He really needed to go there to try to validate all of the hype that he's gotten.
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On August 13 2012 07:25 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 06:33 Cinim wrote:to Benjamin, Liquidret, Sen, Killer, Mana, White-ra and Strelok. For sure, they aren't nearly as strong, although you could have easy made a better team(Scarlet? really? lol) But I'm sure they could take a game I just picked some random players I knew who wasnt BW players hehe. But my point was you cant compare the BW scene to the starcraft 2 scene. Most of the foreign players in starcraft 2 is professional players who do this for a living.
And to be exact, you didn't actually even know who are or are not BW players. Heh heh. Why not? Roughly speaking, it is the same BW foreigners, who represent the foreign SC2 scene pretty well, getting beat by the same Koreans. And these Koreans mostly played very seriously already in BW, so I see no reason to believe that they have all began to blossom only in SC2. It seems to me like playing professionaly hasn't changed all that much. And I expect the skill gap to grow in the future with the coming of Kespa.
I do admit that the foreign scene is overall more competetive than it was in BW.
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The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
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On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote:
The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
But that is to ignore a key factor in how proscenes are born and sustained: foreigners never had as many players sticking to the game. The consequence is, of course, that foreigners lack talent. It is talent and practise that makes perfect. There are a few Mondragons and Stephanos, yes, but there are no Jaedongs and Flashes. That is why training alone will not do, you also need talent. And you will find more talent when you have more people. That is why to increase the chances of seeing a foreign Flash, you will need the scene to grow. These BW and WC3 foreigners are not enough.
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Kinda funny how the sc2 and bw scenes are always compared when the sc2 global developement is actually a lot closer to war3.
In warcraft 3, the koreans were dominant but the foreigners always had a fighting chance and the very best ones were capable of taking down major tournaments.
There were also tons of koreans on foreign teams and, more generally, a ton more money in the international scene than in the korean one (just like in sc2 today) while it was obviously the other way around in bw.
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On August 13 2012 07:57 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote:
The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners. But that is to ignore a key factor in how proscenes are born and sustained: foreigners never had as many players sticking to the game. The consequence is, of course, that foreigners lack talent. It is talent and practise that makes perfect. There are a few Mondragons and Stephanos, yes, but there are no Jaedongs and Flashes. That is why training alone will not do, you also need talent. And you will find more talent when you have more people. That is why to increase the chances of seeing a foreign Flash, you will need the scene to grow. These BW and WC3 foreigners are not enough.
I think the foreign scene is definitely large enough to find these talents. Now we just need the training.
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On August 13 2012 07:57 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote:
The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners. But that is to ignore a key factor in how proscenes are born and sustained: foreigners never had as many players sticking to the game. The consequence is, of course, that foreigners lack talent. It is talent and practise that makes perfect. There are a few Mondragons and Stephanos, yes, but there are no Jaedongs and Flashes. That is why training alone will not do, you also need talent. And you will find more talent when you have more people. That is why to increase the chances of seeing a foreign Flash, you will need the scene to grow. These BW and WC3 foreigners are not enough.
In the end it's all about practice, not the absurd word what people call talent. The reason why people at foreigner scene aren't as good as Korean's isn't because they don't practice enough (Well, maybe for some it is), but because the quality of their practice isn't as good as Korean's. In doesn't matter how big amount of "talent" you got if there are other players practising in team houses like IM.
I don't agree at all that it has something to do with talent, talent isn't something that actually exist. When you look at Usain Bolt, you can hear people call him talented, but for him one obvious reason why he's the best is that his body build, thus it's not talent just physical body. Now when you have such a body the only way to actually become the best in the end, is just to practice.
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On August 13 2012 07:57 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote:
The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners. But that is to ignore a key factor in how proscenes are born and sustained: foreigners never had as many players sticking to the game. The consequence is, of course, that foreigners lack talent. It is talent and practise that makes perfect. There are a few Mondragons and Stephanos, yes, but there are no Jaedongs and Flashes. That is why training alone will not do, you also need talent. And you will find more talent when you have more people. That is why to increase the chances of seeing a foreign Flash, you will need the scene to grow. These BW and WC3 foreigners are not enough.
This makes no sense.
Foreigners outnumber Koreans by a factor 10 at least, what they lack is not talent, they lack talented people who are willing to train like Koreans and infrastructure to support them while they do.
And as far as talent goes, i'm pretty sure Stephano is one of the most gifted players in the game, he lacks training discipline and support but still manages to be among the absolute best.
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On August 09 2012 22:42 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote:
He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it. You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it. GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Need is a relative term but will his fame and fortune rise exponentially is he wins it? Yes, it will.
Winning GSL is the most "money worthy" thing Stephano could ever do. Aside from the huge payout, winning it as the first non-Korean would grant him heavy leverage for any salary negotiations. Talk shows and media would be all over him. His fame will rise from Most Hyped up Foreigner to an actual Legend.
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i think that for the foreign scene to catch up, they need a team house with strict korean style management and coaches to push them along. The players themselves will need the determination and drive to practice 8+ hours everyday in this environment and be willing to take constructive criticism and feedback.
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On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote:
The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
which is precisely why Mondi and Stephano are incomparable in their success
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Super excited to see Stephano play in the GSL Code A qualifiers.
Stephano hwaiting!
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EPT
