Illyes 'Millenium_Stephano' Satouri has arrived in Korea for his training camp.
Stephano arrived in Korea on August 7th and has unpacked his belongings in the TSL team house with whom Millenium currently have a partnership with. Stephano is here in Korea because he wishes to live with his TSL teammates and train with them as he hones his skills.
Originally, Stephano was supposed to start his training in Korea earlier and participate in the 2012 Hot6iX GSTL season 2 with TSL but his entry was delayed due to unfortunate circumstances. However, right now, he has successfully entered Korea.
Even though he arrived much later than intended, Stephano stated that "Korea is much better than I thought it would be. I am very excited to start training with my TSL teammates and of course, I hope to experience the Korean cultures while I am here." Stephano has only been here for a day and already he has expressed regret for not coming sooner.
With coach Lee and the players using a mix of body language and English, the team seems to be communicating well with Stephano. It was reported that Stephano is actively participating in the training program and he is progressing much faster than expected.
Coach Lee stated that "I am really content with Stephano. Immediately after his arrival, Stephano went with the team to do some grocery shopping, and he always tries to participate in whatever activity we decide to do. I am eagerly anticipating what this partnership with Millenium will bring forward and I hope Millenium stays with us for a very long time.
Stephano plans on staying in Korea to train with his TSL teammates for two weeks and then he plans on attending the upcoming MLG tournament. It is still uncertain as to whether or not he will return to Korea after MLG though.
I'd imagine if he enjoys being there as much as he says he is and everyone knows GOM would give him a code S seed, he'd most likely return to korea for a GSL season
if anything i think this hurts stephano. he never struck my as the guy who needs to really practice like a korean to be good. instead being around them practicing with them so much will make him rub off on them, making them better, making them beat him easier
oh well lol. nothing will change now. heres for the best
On August 09 2012 08:34 kaokentake wrote: if anything i think this hurts stephano. he never struck my as the guy who needs to really practice like a korean to be good. instead being around them practicing with them so much will make him rub off on them, making them better, making them beat him easier
oh well lol. nothing will change now. heres for the best
Stephano practices really hard and then tells everyone he never practices
On August 09 2012 08:34 kaokentake wrote: if anything i think this hurts stephano. he never struck my as the guy who needs to really practice like a korean to be good. instead being around them practicing with them so much will make him rub off on them, making them better, making them beat him easier
oh well lol. nothing will change now. heres for the best
Actually it does help that he gets to play on the korean server, since the styles are a bit different he can adapt better to the korean players by doing so. And since he's such a smart player, he will gain more from observing the korean players than other foreigners would.
if anything i think this hurts stephano. he never struck my as the guy who needs to really practice like a korean to be good. instead being around them practicing with them so much will make him rub off on them, making them better, making them beat him easier
players like mma has been known to have very little practice time. Dont overgeneralize things here.
some players practice much less than others but still stay at the top. Youre kind of saying koreans are only good
Hmm, hopefully the practice time with Koreans helps him a lot, maybe enough to where he decides to stay in Korea after MLG and maybe participate in GSL.
On August 09 2012 08:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Only staying for two weeks before leaving? That's too bad. I was hoping to see him participate in a GSL.
Maybe he'll come back to Korea after MLG...
the mod of his chat who is close to him, is giving a lot of hints about the season happening in October, it's confirmed that he received an invite for that season but when you ask if he is actually going to participate he says that he can't tell us right now, if he wasn't going to do it there would be no reason to hide it .........
On August 09 2012 08:34 kaokentake wrote: if anything i think this hurts stephano. he never struck my as the guy who needs to really practice like a korean to be good. instead being around them practicing with them so much will make him rub off on them, making them better, making them beat him easier
oh well lol. nothing will change now. heres for the best
Stephano practices really hard and then tells everyone he never practices
Yeah, I get the feeling not too many people actually buy into it. I think its just his way of being cheeky ^^
On August 09 2012 08:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Only staying for two weeks before leaving? That's too bad. I was hoping to see him participate in a GSL.
Maybe he'll come back to Korea after MLG...
the mod of his chat who is close to him, is giving a lot of hints about the season happening in October, it's confirmed that he received an invite for that season but when you ask if he is actually going to participate he says that he can't tell us right now, if he wasn't going to do it there would be no reason to hide it .........
I don't understand why he would hide it either way. If he's uncertain (i.e. if he wants to see how these two weeks go and then figure out where his head's at after MLG), then I understand. But if he already knows for sure whether he's staying or not... I see no reason to not say. Just to tease us? I wonder why he *can't* tell us if he's already made up his mind.
On August 09 2012 08:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Only staying for two weeks before leaving? That's too bad. I was hoping to see him participate in a GSL.
Maybe he'll come back to Korea after MLG...
the mod of his chat who is close to him, is giving a lot of hints about the season happening in October, it's confirmed that he received an invite for that season but when you ask if he is actually going to participate he says that he can't tell us right now, if he wasn't going to do it there would be no reason to hide it .........
I don't understand why he would hide it either way. If he's uncertain (i.e. if he wants to see how these two weeks go and then figure out where his head's at after MLG), then I understand. But if he already knows for sure whether he's staying or not... I see no reason to not say. Just to tease us? I wonder why he *can't* tell us if he's already made up his mind.
Stephano + GSL = shitload of viewers. GOM will do whatever they can to get him.
On August 09 2012 08:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Only staying for two weeks before leaving? That's too bad. I was hoping to see him participate in a GSL.
Maybe he'll come back to Korea after MLG...
the mod of his chat who is close to him, is giving a lot of hints about the season happening in October, it's confirmed that he received an invite for that season but when you ask if he is actually going to participate he says that he can't tell us right now, if he wasn't going to do it there would be no reason to hide it .........
In the french interview that was translated here some time ago, Stephano himself said he had plans to participate in the October season and that he would certainly go back to Korea later this year.
If nothing major happens, that should work out.
I kinda hope he stays with Millenium, their partnership with TSL seems like both Stephano and TSL could benefit a lot from it.
If he changed teams when his contract is up, his current plans might fall apart. I don't hope so, would be great to see him finally play GSL.
Only two weeks? Wondering if that means he's not doing the GSL? Guess we'll wait for confirmation from GOM, though most likely I expect he'll stick around to at least give one season a go.
On August 09 2012 08:34 kaokentake wrote: if anything i think this hurts stephano. he never struck my as the guy who needs to really practice like a korean to be good. instead being around them practicing with them so much will make him rub off on them, making them better, making them beat him easier
oh well lol. nothing will change now. heres for the best
it's not like he isn't studied to begin with, even by koreans. its gonna be a mutual positive effect on stephano AND the TSL guys
On August 09 2012 08:59 bittman wrote: Only two weeks? Wondering if that means he's not doing the GSL? Guess we'll wait for confirmation from GOM, though most likely I expect he'll stick around to at least give one season a go.
OP indicates that MLG is in 2 weeks. He'll either return after MLG or not.
Whether he'll play GS(T)L or not depends on which team he's gonna choose and what the team wants. His contract expires in September, that's why there's nothing confirmed after MLG so far.
2 weeks? I want to see him play top players on the top stage, but I think he's smart to focus on what he knows he can win. Disappointing for fans though.
There is so much confusion in this thread, mainly because of the language barrier, when he says he is not going to do the GSL he is only talking about his current trip there, his current trip was supposed to happen earlier and would have maybe gave him the opportunity to participate in the current GSTL season, that's why he says that in the gamespot interview.
He clearly more than once said that he wants to try the GSL whenever he finds a time slot that doesn't make it a big loss (not being able to do any other tournament during that time).
For the people asking why only 2 weeks, MLG Summer Championship August 24-26.
For the people hoping that he goes back immediately after MLG, it doesn't make sense, WCS European Championship September 15-16.
And then comes October, it's confirmed he has the invite for that GSL season we just need to wait and see if he is going, it probably will only depend on which team he ends up and what tournament are happening at that moment.
Edit : just a little more information about October he only has the ESWC from October 31-4th November, witha little bit of luck he can attend it maybe between group stage or something, he is already qualified since he is the defending champion
I'm not going to lie. This kind of feels like Dragonball Z, where we were waiting forever for Goku to finally get his ass to Namek. Goku (Stephano) has finally arrived and is going to compete in the GSL. This is big.
I was really anticipating Stephano in GSL, but I suppose those dreams will never be founded He really does seem to enjoy a good relationship with TSL players, and being with the top Zergs in Korea and Polt should improve his skills tremendously. You can tell he seems super motivated to improve further, and being in Korea really does seem to make him happy. I think we might see a Stephano 2.0 at MLG.
On August 09 2012 08:33 Flonomenalz wrote: Just 2 weeks eh? Well he'll improve, but I wish it was something like a month or two.
Dont be naive.. at this skill lv that Stephano and other top tier pro gamers have , two weeks is nothing Only thing he can learn in two weeks are some builds and thats it , and maby little his ZvZ that is shit right now
On August 09 2012 10:06 FaRess wrote: There is so much confusion in this thread, mainly because of the language barrier, when he says he is not going to do the GSL he is only talking about his current trip there, his current trip was supposed to happen earlier and would have maybe gave him the opportunity to participate in the current GSTL season, that's why he says that in the gamespot interview.
He clearly more than once said that he wants to try the GSL whenever he finds a time slot that doesn't make it a big loss (not being able to do any other tournament during that time).
For the people asking why only 2 weeks, MLG Summer Championship August 24-26.
For the people hoping that he goes back immediately after MLG, it doesn't make sense, WCS European Championship September 15-16.
And then comes October, it's confirmed he has the invite for that GSL season we just need to wait and see if he is going, it probably will only depend on which team he ends up and what tournament are happening at that moment.
Edit : just a little more information about October he only has the ESWC from October 31-4th November, witha little bit of luck he can attend it maybe between group stage or something, he is already qualified since he is the defending champion
Thank you for some clarity. Would I be able to find the recent statements he's made on this, or were they in unsaved stream vods?
it's a mix of french interviews, and information from the person who takes care of stephano's communication and stream.
On August 09 2012 09:34 courtpanda wrote: great for him and tsl, if he plays in the gstl, he'd be a huge help for TSL considering how weak their zerg lineup is.
Ermmm, you do realize you are talking about TSL, the team known for it's Zergs? So you are saying a team with Symbol, HyuN, Shine and RagnaroK is weak?
Seriously, it's about freakin' time. With quality training in Korea and some time, Stephano could be a top-notch player in no time. Why it didn't happen earlier is beyond me.
On August 09 2012 10:27 ridethecatbus wrote: I understand foreign prize money is his priority but man, I would love to see him in GSL after having a few months of practice in the TSL house.
I don't see why the Koreans haven't figured out some sort of incentive or way of accommodating his wish to travel between rounds of GSL the way MC does. Stephano in just a single series in Code S would likely break their viewership record. Stephano in a ro4 or final would make the internet explode.
On August 09 2012 08:33 Flonomenalz wrote: Just 2 weeks eh? Well he'll improve, but I wish it was something like a month or two.
Dont be naive.. at this skill lv that Stephano and other top tier pro gamers have , two weeks is nothing Only thing he can learn in two weeks are some builds and thats it , and maby little his ZvZ that is shit right now
i might be misunderstanding but i think you guys are saying the same thing
also, looking forward to see if anything comes of this. gonna enjoy the streaming at the very least! :D
On August 09 2012 09:34 courtpanda wrote: great for him and tsl, if he plays in the gstl, he'd be a huge help for TSL considering how weak their zerg lineup is.
Ermmm, you do realize you are talking about TSL, the team known for it's Zergs? So you are saying a team with Symbol, HyuN, Shine and RagnaroK is weak?
Read his words again.
courtpanda claims their Zerg lineup is weak and PhoenixVoid questions it. If there's any form of irony hidden in courtpanda's post it's very well hidden.
On August 09 2012 10:36 BlackPride wrote: Seriously, it's about freakin' time. With quality training in Korea and some time, Stephano could be a top-notch player in no time. Why it didn't happen earlier is beyond me.
He's already a top notch player.
If he improves, he can only become the best player in the world.
Stephano practicing in person with TSL zergs can only spell trouble for his opponents. Even though 2 weeks is pretty short, I expect Stephano will pick up some invaluable insight and improve his play.
Stephano said in a really long french interview that if he plays in GSL it will most likely be around October of this year. Im going to bet that he goes back to the TSL house after MLG and will then compete in the next GSL season. (Not the upcoming one, but the season after)
I don't see why people think Stephano will just improve that much. His mechanics is already good. His weakness will only surface more with his style of play. Only his zvp is truly top notch, and in korea he will get studied to death and just get countered like Oz did.
On August 09 2012 10:27 ridethecatbus wrote: I understand foreign prize money is his priority but man, I would love to see him in GSL after having a few months of practice in the TSL house.
I don't see why the Koreans haven't figured out some sort of incentive or way of accommodating his wish to travel between rounds of GSL the way MC does. Stephano in just a single series in Code S would likely break their viewership record. Stephano in a ro4 or final would make the internet explode.
On August 09 2012 08:45 Everest9 wrote: "successfully unpacked his belongings"
:D :D
Y is this funny?
Can you fail at unpacking your belongings?
Huh...
I uh... may have mistranslated Oo;;
Yea, well, it's using "unpacked his belongings" to say that he has settled down at the house, not to literally point out he managed to unpack his baggages.
On August 09 2012 08:45 Everest9 wrote: "successfully unpacked his belongings"
:D :D
Y is this funny?
Can you fail at unpacking your belongings?
Huh...
I uh... may have mistranslated Oo;;
Yea, well, it's using "unpacked his belongings" to say that he has settled down at the house, not to literally point out he managed to unpack his baggages.
Ah, and here I thought it indicates discreetly that he has ginormous amounts of luggage (all moisturizers, of course). Or that he was almost sober when unpacking.
On August 09 2012 13:04 power-overwhelming wrote: I don't see why people think Stephano will just improve that much. His mechanics is already good. His weakness will only surface more with his style of play. Only his zvp is truly top notch, and in korea he will get studied to death and just get countered like Oz did.
Stephano has shown his ability to adapt his builds to deal with strong opponents. Players like Polt, MC, Hero and MKP used to crush him in tournaments, but after playing them several times he's had a chance to adapt his play and now he does quite decently against them. People on the EU server just aren't comparable in terms of builds and unit control, so without getting challenged Stephano won't develop as a player.
Consider when Stephano lost to Oz on Daybreak to the fast 3rd build. Stephano could have scouted the 3rd earlier, and he could have been much more effective with his zergling attack which put him behind. The thing is, when practising on the EU server against an EU pro he can afford to make mistakes like that and still manage to win. Also consider game 1 vs QXC to game 1 vs Ryung, both on Antiga, from that weekend. Stephano did the same roach/ling/baneling attack which was defended efficiently by each opponent, putting him quite behind. Against QXC it didn't matter, he just outmanoeuvred him in the midgame and won it anyways, whereas Ryung played it out perfectly without mistakes to secure the win. It's when you lose that you're forced to make adjustments and refinements.
Also, mechanics wise Stephano has been poorer lately compared to earlier in the year. The reason is that recently he's been taking weeks off at a time whereas he was streaming for hours a day at the start of the year. You can tell, he gets more supply blocks and sometimes falls behind on his larvae injects. A return to a more regular practice routine will surely help here.
On August 09 2012 08:45 Everest9 wrote: "successfully unpacked his belongings"
:D :D
Y is this funny?
Can you fail at unpacking your belongings?
Huh...
I uh... may have mistranslated Oo;;
Yea, well, it's using "unpacked his belongings" to say that he has settled down at the house, not to literally point out he managed to unpack his baggages.
Ah, and here I thought it indicates discreetly that he has ginormous amounts of luggage (all moisturizers, of course). Or that he was almost sober when unpacking.
Since there's a lot of confusion on the GSL topic, I allow myself a little self promotion, sorry about that, but I was the one interviewing Stephano at WCS France where he confirmed he will play GSL in October.
In all seriousness, this is sick news. Love Stephano and practising with TSL is only great news. Training with Polt is only going to make his TvZ real scary and TSL's zergs will make his ZvZ pretty balls as well
Is he only gonna stay for 2 weeks? Dont really see the point in that...its hard to improve at all in such short time...and the travel almost makes it worse if hes got a tourney in 2 weeks.....much luck though.....
Judging by his performance on his stream yesterday he looks as strong as ever.
Ofourse, he wasn't playing any top level players (i think) but he won pretty convincingly vs master and GM korean players, making it look easy at times and with a record of 34-5..
I wonder if the first period in Korea will make him worse as it happens for most foreign players or he is able to skip that part. Let's see how he does at MLG.
On August 09 2012 17:18 aTnClouD wrote: I wonder if the first period in Korea will make him worse as it happens for most foreign players or he is able to skip that part. Let's see how he does at MLG.
korea made a lot of foreign players worse in the first period because they didn't have the level and enough confidence, it won't happen for stephano
On August 09 2012 17:18 aTnClouD wrote: I wonder if the first period in Korea will make him worse as it happens for most foreign players or he is able to skip that part. Let's see how he does at MLG.
korea made a lot of foreign players worse in the first period because they didn't have the level and enough confidence, it won't happen for stephano
it's not his first period in Korea, he went there for a while when he played in the Blizzard Cup, he improved a lot while there.
It's always nice to see when the likes of Stephano puts an effort in himself to get along with his korean counterparts by actively participating in anything they do such as buying groceries and all that.. Can understand why coach Lee says he's eagerly anticipating to see what this partnership with Millenium will bring forth.
Saw some games on his stream last night, it was fun. But his account was pretty low in terms of MMR when I watched so I hope he streams more ladder during his stay so we can watch some games vs GM's. I remember when he was in Korea last time and played on the DreAm account and just wrecked everyone because no one was really used to play against his style.
I haven't seen a foreign player be as insanely successful (>90% win ratio while Masters and >75% against GMs) on the Korean Ladder as Stephano has been in his previous visit. I am pretty sure he will do nothing but improve while in Korea.
On August 09 2012 08:34 kaokentake wrote: if anything i think this hurts stephano. he never struck my as the guy who needs to really practice like a korean to be good. instead being around them practicing with them so much will make him rub off on them, making them better, making them beat him easier
oh well lol. nothing will change now. heres for the best
That's why he did the most important thing first when he came to Korea.
On August 09 2012 09:34 courtpanda wrote: great for him and tsl, if he plays in the gstl, he'd be a huge help for TSL considering how weak their zerg lineup is.
TSL has a great zerg line up and are very well known for it, I don't know what you're talking about?
On August 09 2012 17:52 Heartland wrote: Using a mix of body language and English? X.x
Hopefully he'll have a better time than Nani did there.
I think that is because Naniwa seems to have a bit of a depression problem(Not positive about that but I seem to remember he said that). Some people are just not made to go into certain environments.
On August 09 2012 17:52 Heartland wrote: Using a mix of body language and English? X.x
Hopefully he'll have a better time than Nani did there.
I think that is because Naniwa seems to have a bit of a depression problem(Not positive about that but I seem to remember he said that). Some people are just not made to go into certain environments.
+ koreans aren't really a fan of NaNi which in a way he only has himself to blame for considering the things he's done in the past (towards nestea for example) which would contribute to his depression as well if the koreans in the teamhouse would let him feel that they're not really happy 'bout him.
On August 09 2012 16:38 LeLfe wrote: Since there's a lot of confusion on the GSL topic, I allow myself a little self promotion, sorry about that, but I was the one interviewing Stephano at WCS France where he confirmed he will play GSL in October.
But that can't be the October season? As far as I can tell season 5 would begin in November if GSL sticks to the 2-3 month for a season format. They won't start season 4 until September.
Hmm... so it begins you mean. Really hope he does well in Code S but he'd probably need to change his style a bit so that he isn't too predictable, we'll see. :D
Really hope he improves and also plays the GSL. We need a foreigner to start rocking the GSL again and this new blood might be awesome. (I know Naniwa is there already).
That article makes it sound like it is his first time in Korea, but I am certain he has been there before. Two weeks isn't really enough time to train; I hope he can stay longer.
If he's in it for the long haul I can definitely see him winning a GSL. I mean he doesn't practice much right? But in Korea he'll practice so much more.
On August 09 2012 08:33 Flonomenalz wrote: Just 2 weeks eh? Well he'll improve, but I wish it was something like a month or two.
Dont be naive.. at this skill lv that Stephano and other top tier pro gamers have , two weeks is nothing Only thing he can learn in two weeks are some builds and thats it , and maby little his ZvZ that is shit right now
You're the naive one lol. Just having any time at all in that sort of environment is beneficial, provided both that the language barriers can be overcome and that the players are willing to be open about their approaches to the game. How anyone could think two weeks is nothing when you can discuss ideas, trends, timings, whatever, and also practice with a bunch of other world class players is beyond me!
cant wait to see after MLG if he will go back or not. Stephano will gain so much as a player in Korea that he will come back scary afterwards comapred to other foreigners!!!
He got a ton of ZvZ yesterday, while it was evident he was kind of annoyed by it it's a great thing. His ZvZ is his weakest by far some good korean practice on this matchup will make him more all around good.
Didnt Stephano get a chance to play in Code S some time ago after winning some tournaments but he passed? wonder if he still has a chance to use that offer =P
On August 09 2012 20:06 Beyond Magic wrote: Didnt Stephano get a chance to play in Code S some time ago after winning some tournaments but he passed? wonder if he still has a chance to use that offer =P
He had his name on a Code S seed for a long time now. He may participate in the next one in October if his new team allows him to.
On August 09 2012 20:06 Beyond Magic wrote: Didnt Stephano get a chance to play in Code S some time ago after winning some tournaments but he passed? wonder if he still has a chance to use that offer =P
I assure you GOM would shit themselves in happiness (spoiler: they probably wouldn't) if stephano asked to be part of Code S.
On August 09 2012 18:53 BearStorm wrote: If he's in it for the long haul I can definitely see him winning a GSL. I mean he doesn't practice much right? But in Korea he'll practice so much more.
I thought it was well known that it is a lie no ? Just telling that he only practices a few hours, whereas he plays a lot like every other pro. But sure, practicing in korea, especially his zvz won't hurt.
This will be great for Stephano, he needs structure for him to not just be one of the most talented players on the circuit, but so he can become one of the greatest players to play sc2 Wings of Liberty. This shows how amazing Millenium as an organization is, after the blatantly rude comments Stephano has said about leaving the team once his contract up. Either way this is great for everyone, especially the views on twitch
On August 09 2012 18:53 BearStorm wrote: If he's in it for the long haul I can definitely see him winning a GSL. I mean he doesn't practice much right? But in Korea he'll practice so much more.
I thought it was well known that it is a lie no ? Just telling that he only practices a few hours, whereas he plays a lot like every other pro. But sure, practicing in korea, especially his zvz won't hurt.
Stephano was never found to have a secret account or similar. And his fanboys know pretty well when and how much he plays. I would say there are not many players in the world whos play times are known as exactly as Stephano's.
On August 09 2012 18:53 BearStorm wrote: If he's in it for the long haul I can definitely see him winning a GSL. I mean he doesn't practice much right? But in Korea he'll practice so much more.
I thought it was well known that it is a lie no ? Just telling that he only practices a few hours, whereas he plays a lot like every other pro. But sure, practicing in korea, especially his zvz won't hurt.
Stephano was never found to have a secret account or similar. And his fanboys know pretty well when and how much he plays. I would say there are not many players in the world whos play times are known as exactly as Stephano's.
On August 09 2012 20:51 Skiblet wrote: If Stephano participates in the GSL I forsee an early eliminaion (Ro32/64) etc to the best players, or him making top8, my prediction
so as long as he doesnt lose in Ro16 you're alway right?
On August 09 2012 20:51 Skiblet wrote: If Stephano participates in the GSL I forsee an early eliminaion (Ro32/64) etc to the best players, or him making top8, my prediction
so as long as he doesnt lose in Ro16 you're alway right?
If Stephano goes to GSL, he'll do way better than the likes of Naniwa since he's the better player and since there are so many protosses in the final stages.
On August 09 2012 18:53 BearStorm wrote: If he's in it for the long haul I can definitely see him winning a GSL. I mean he doesn't practice much right? But in Korea he'll practice so much more.
I thought it was well known that it is a lie no ? Just telling that he only practices a few hours, whereas he plays a lot like every other pro. But sure, practicing in korea, especially his zvz won't hurt.
Stephano was never found to have a secret account or similar. And his fanboys know pretty well when and how much he plays. I would say there are not many players in the world whos play times are known as exactly as Stephano's.
Pretty sure that any pro has a smurf.
In his case I highly doubt that he could have a smurf apart from one doing only CG's with other pros (which is entierly posible). He's really under high scrutinty. If he ladders with one there is little doubt that he would be found and I don't think an account staying lower than GM would be seen as anything else than a waste of time for him.
On August 09 2012 20:51 Skiblet wrote: If Stephano participates in the GSL I forsee an early eliminaion (Ro32/64) etc to the best players, or him making top8, my prediction
I foresee he will not be eliminated in RO64. In fact I bet all my money on it.
I watched his stream yesterday and it was awesome. Despite not playing for a few weeks, he was really in shape, kicking some ass on the Korean ladder without much trouble. Just check his match history http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/2829480/1/이회창/matches
He said that he'll be streaming a lot more the following days too, so make sure to check it out!
On August 09 2012 22:22 MinimalistSC2 wrote: Stephano should join TSL!
I have the feeling they require a different work ethic. Well in an interview he said he is able to trrain 8* hours if there is nothing else that he could do, which was the case when he was in korea the last time.
Snute is in korea and kicking some ass.. TBH I'm way more excited to see what will come out of that stay.. Only a few weeks playing from pc bangs from what I have heard, but latency free KR ladder is better then EU none the less.. ^^ stephano is going to own everything no matter where he stays.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
I agree with this. I'll also note that you can earn the frequently changing "best player in the world at the moment" title without winning a GSL. Currently Taeja holds this title despite unspectacular GSL results; before Taeja, MKP held it. So even if Stephano's goal is to become the best player in the world he doesn't necessarily need a GSL trophy.
the GSL provides great benefits in terms of fame, but in terms of pure money, it is better to stick to other tourneys. Look at MC, he is the player that has won the more money. Sure he has won 2 GSL, but look at the number of other tournaments he has participated in (to the point that it is mindboggling, this dude is EVERYWHERE, when does he sleep? this is crazy).
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
I agree with this. I'll also note that you can earn the frequently changing "best player in the world at the moment" title without winning a GSL. Currently Taeja holds this title despite unspectacular GSL results; before Taeja, MKP held it. So even if Stephano's goal is to become the best player in the world he doesn't necessarily need a GSL trophy.
Taeja got round of 8 in code s in the most recent season. That is spectacular and a huge factor in why he seems so godlike ATM.
On August 09 2012 22:55 killy666 wrote: the GSL provides great benefits in terms of fame, but in terms of pure money, it is better to stick to other tourneys. Look at MC, he is the player that has won the more money. Sure he has won 2 GSL, but look at the number of other tournaments he has participated in (to the point that it is mindboggling, this dude is EVERYWHERE, when does he sleep? this is crazy).
Gsl pay out is huge. Look at fruit dealer, he won the very first Gsl open season and that is pretty much the only thing he won, yet he is still one of the highest players on the tournament winnings list
On August 09 2012 22:55 killy666 wrote: the GSL provides great benefits in terms of fame, but in terms of pure money, it is better to stick to other tourneys. Look at MC, he is the player that has won the more money. Sure he has won 2 GSL, but look at the number of other tournaments he has participated in (to the point that it is mindboggling, this dude is EVERYWHERE, when does he sleep? this is crazy).
It provides fame for "not yet famous" players. But Stephano's fame is already huge. I don't even think that he wants more (but i'm not in his head).
On August 09 2012 22:22 MinimalistSC2 wrote: Stephano should join TSL!
I have the feeling they require a different work ethic. Well in an interview he said he is able to trrain 8* hours if there is nothing else that he could do, which was the case when he was in korea the last time.
Pretty sure he didn't practice at all when he was in korea the first time. He said it was boring and only watched TV shows in the result.
On August 09 2012 22:55 killy666 wrote: the GSL provides great benefits in terms of fame, but in terms of pure money, it is better to stick to other tourneys. Look at MC, he is the player that has won the more money. Sure he has won 2 GSL, but look at the number of other tournaments he has participated in (to the point that it is mindboggling, this dude is EVERYWHERE, when does he sleep? this is crazy).
Gsl pay out is huge. Look at fruit dealer, he won the very first Gsl open season and that is pretty much the only thing he won, yet he is still one of the highest players on the tournament winnings list
2 years ago yes, but not anymore. The GSL winner gets 30 000 000 WON now (21k€, 25k$). It's a shit load of money but not way more than what he could get in DH/IPL/NASL/MLG/etc....
Spending more than one month in korea for GSL is worthy if there's nothing else to do (like he says from the start).
On August 09 2012 22:55 killy666 wrote: the GSL provides great benefits in terms of fame, but in terms of pure money, it is better to stick to other tourneys. Look at MC, he is the player that has won the more money. Sure he has won 2 GSL, but look at the number of other tournaments he has participated in (to the point that it is mindboggling, this dude is EVERYWHERE, when does he sleep? this is crazy).
Gsl pay out is huge. Look at fruit dealer, he won the very first Gsl open season and that is pretty much the only thing he won, yet he is still one of the highest players on the tournament winnings list
WERE huge for a single person. The players ending up in the top spots got more money since it was only one single elimination tournament starting with 64 players. Today there's Code S, Code A and more GSLs per year.
Holy shit I hope he stays long enough to get a shot at Code A, I really think he could be the farthest progressing foreigner to hit the GSL. Plus I'd love to see him and Nani go head to head!
On August 09 2012 22:55 killy666 wrote: the GSL provides great benefits in terms of fame, but in terms of pure money, it is better to stick to other tourneys. Look at MC, he is the player that has won the more money. Sure he has won 2 GSL, but look at the number of other tournaments he has participated in (to the point that it is mindboggling, this dude is EVERYWHERE, when does he sleep? this is crazy).
Gsl pay out is huge. Look at fruit dealer, he won the very first Gsl open season and that is pretty much the only thing he won, yet he is still one of the highest players on the tournament winnings list
2 years ago yes, but not anymore. The GSL winner gets 30 000 000 WON now (21k€, 25k$). It's a shit load of money but not way more than what he could get in DH/IPL/NASL/MLG/etc....
Spending more than one month in korea for GSL is worthy if there's nothing else to do (like he says from the start).
That's for GSTL. GSL is 50.000.000 won which is 44.3k $. if not TL or someone else may want to correct that info on liquipedia.
He has said in a past interview that he was open to participating in GSL, if it wouldn't interfere with weekend tournaments. As you probably know, GOM has begun rearranging the groups in Code S to suit the needs of the players who attend weekend tournaments. However, it would seem kinda strange that Millennium and TSL would create a partnership without any of Millennium's players staying there for long periods seeing as other foreigners in the past have stayed at team houses without the teams having to partner up.
Hope Stephano will come up with an official/updated answer soon.
In my opinion it would be a little silly to go all the way out to Korea and only stay for 2 weeks. I think he will surely go back after MLG and stay there a little longer.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Right because money is all he cares about. That's what makes him a true competitor, he's in it for the money only.
A Pro gamer play for Money??? Wow that's surprising
It might be hard for you to believe this, but true athletes love doing what they do because of reasons other than money.
It might be hard for you to believe this, but 'true' athletes only make it to the top because they get the money they need to support the lifestyle neccesary to get and stay on top. I wonder if lebron james plays for free. LOL
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Right because money is all he cares about. That's what makes him a true competitor, he's in it for the money only.
A Pro gamer play for Money??? Wow that's surprising
It might be hard for you to believe this, but true athletes love doing what they do because of reasons other than money.
It might be hard for you to believe this, but 'true' athletes only make it to the top because they get the money they need to support the lifestyle neccesary to get and stay on top. I wonder if lebron james plays for free. LOL
Did you even think about what you typed?
Yes, at a point in an athlete's career they will get noticed by an organization and offered monetary compensation for their work. Until then it's all soley dependent on the athlete's dedication and effort whether or not they get noticed by people with money. Loads of professional athletes grew up in impoverished homes and communities, without the money or lifestyle you claim is necessary to become elite. Don't kid yourself. Stephano worked his ass off at some point either in WC3 or SC2 to get where he is and was already better than 99% of us before he started getting paid.
Anyone else think it's odd that he is streaming/practicing so early in the morning (3am atm), I wonder how much he actually practices with teammates..hope for him he's getting more than just ladder practice, otherwise doesn't seem that worthwhile
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Right because money is all he cares about. That's what makes him a true competitor, he's in it for the money only.
A Pro gamer play for Money??? Wow that's surprising
It might be hard for you to believe this, but true athletes love doing what they do because of reasons other than money.
Pretty sure Stephano has made it pretty explicit that he's doing this for the money.
Him saying that the financial reward meant he could afford to put school off for a year doesn't mean he's only in it for the money. That could just mean he can support himself in his effort to compete with the best SC2 players. GSL players are the best around, therefore Stephano has reason to enter GSL apart from the prize money. Agathon's statement implied that stephano's sole motivation should be money, which is silly.
On August 10 2012 03:44 Simsallabin wrote: He lost to MVP.Keen who played offrace protoss
And he has beaten Keen's main before. And also smashed some of the best tosses in the world before. So yeah, not the most intelligent thing you could say there.
On August 09 2012 20:51 Skiblet wrote: If Stephano participates in the GSL I forsee an early eliminaion (Ro32/64) etc to the best players, or him making top8, my prediction
On August 09 2012 20:51 Skiblet wrote: If Stephano participates in the GSL I forsee an early eliminaion (Ro32/64) etc to the best players, or him making top8, my prediction
yeah, i forsee a ro32-ro1 finish too
Thank you for that astute, high-level analysis. Noted.
Let's not forget that most foreigner had to play several GSL before actually doing good... I guess getting used to Korea and GSL atmosphere won't be easy. So I'm not really expect him to go really far but I hope I'm wrong :-)
On August 10 2012 03:44 Simsallabin wrote: He lost to MVP.Keen who played offrace protoss
And he has beaten Keen's main before. And also smashed some of the best tosses in the world before. So yeah, not the most intelligent thing you could say there.
Why so agressive? I just gave some information about a game I saw. Never said he was bad or something. Maybe you need to take this in a bit more relaxing way
On August 10 2012 03:44 Simsallabin wrote: He lost to MVP.Keen who played offrace protoss
And he has beaten Keen's main before. And also smashed some of the best tosses in the world before. So yeah, not the most intelligent thing you could say there.
Why so agressive? I just gave some information about a game I saw. Never said he was bad or something. Maybe you need to take this in a bit more relaxing way
Though most people would assume that your post was written in a rude way :p it's hard to detect exactly what people are trying to say over the internet.
In any thread with a well-known player's name in the title, there are going to be tons of trolls, so everyone is just waiting for the opportunity to jump on them. Aka what your post might seem like :p
I agree that it has taken the notable foreigners several seasons to accustomise themselves to the Korean style and converting long hours of practise in to win, but I don't think any other foreigner save Stephano has dominated consistently for as long as he has. You also have to take in to account that he has been playing against the top foreigners in many tournaments, which was not at all common when Jinro and Idra were doing well in GSL
On August 10 2012 03:44 Simsallabin wrote: He lost to MVP.Keen who played offrace protoss
And he has beaten Keen's main before. And also smashed some of the best tosses in the world before. So yeah, not the most intelligent thing you could say there.
Why so agressive? I just gave some information about a game I saw. Never said he was bad or something. Maybe you need to take this in a bit more relaxing way
Though most people would assume that your post was written in a rude way :p it's hard to detect exactly what people are trying to say over the internet.
In any thread with a well-known player's name in the title, there are going to be tons of trolls, so everyone is just waiting for the opportunity to jump on them. Aka what your post might seem like :p
Ahh sorry then, was just the game I saw found it funky to see people offrace since not so common
So on stream he just said that he can't do GSL before november because he's too busy but he wants to do one this year... have to wait what happens i guess =)
zerg so imba omg i fing hate zerg they so op!!11!1!
srsly zerg imba
y?
y u ask?
...
Because zerg has Stephano =D
I can never tell if Stephano's being serious when he mentions how little he practices... but regardless, it's going to be scary to see what a little bit of time in Korea will do for him
On August 10 2012 03:44 Simsallabin wrote: He lost to MVP.Keen who played offrace protoss
KeenMVP (whoever that is -- probably not actually Keen) pylon blocked his ramp in the game you're referencing, a strategy that obviously does not work in competitive play because of neutral supply depots. Stephano usually leaves games like that (since playing it out doesn't really help you because you'll never face that situation in a tournament). He probably played it out only because he knows there's a lot of interest in his KR laddering sessions.
On August 10 2012 03:44 Simsallabin wrote: He lost to MVP.Keen who played offrace protoss
KeenMVP (whoever that is -- probably not actually Keen) pylon blocked his ramp in the game you're referencing, a strategy that obviously does not work in competitive play because of neutral supply depots. Stephano usually leaves games like that (since playing it out doesn't really help you because you'll never face that situation in a tournament). He probably played it out only because he knows there's a lot of interest in his KR laddering sessions.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Most foreign players would rather win GSL than some another tournament even if it had 10-30k $ more in grandprize.
Even if stephano is already very famous and well noted player, winning GSL would raise any foreign players Status by A LOT.
You're value as a player would be o so much higher when youre the only foreign GSL champion.
I think the people saying GSL doesn't make financial sense for Stephano don't understand how sports money works. You think shaq, labron, and michael jordan only make money from playing basketball?
It's not just the money you get from GSL, but the huge promotional/advertising money you can make. If stephano were TRULY in it JUST for the money, he would be like the EG guys advertising a ton of crap with his name(mobos, mice/keyboars, glasses, whatever). He already has the biggest name in the industry. Winning GSL would at best give him God-like status and make him e-sports rich.
Stephano vs Naniwa would be a joke.. nani's PvZ is very predictable and he lacks the proper control against Z flanks that other P have, such as MC. I hope they don't meet in GSL and each can make their own path to ro4.
On August 10 2012 16:37 Chessz wrote: Stephano vs Naniwa would be a joke.. nani's PvZ is very predictable and he lacks the proper control against Z flanks that other P have, such as MC. I hope they don't meet in GSL and each can make their own path to ro4.
im more of a stephano fan myself than nani fan but i wouldnt count him out at all.
i mean look at Nani vs DRG in R8, Nani had that final match but made a bad judgement and threw the game.
also considering that nani is a gsl veteran and knows how to prepare his builds, which he does really well.
On August 10 2012 03:44 Simsallabin wrote: He lost to MVP.Keen who played offrace protoss
KeenMVP (whoever that is -- probably not actually Keen) pylon blocked his ramp in the game you're referencing, a strategy that obviously does not work in competitive play because of neutral supply depots. Stephano usually leaves games like that (since playing it out doesn't really help you because you'll never face that situation in a tournament). He probably played it out only because he knows there's a lot of interest in his KR laddering sessions.
It's the same Keen. At least thats the account he uses. I guess it could have been someone else playing on the account, but definitely his real account. In any case Keen and Hack are 2 terran players that have quietly become monstrous, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that really was Keen offracing. His skill is legit.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Most foreign players would rather win GSL than some another tournament even if it had 10-30k $ more in grandprize.
Even if stephano is already very famous and well noted player, winning GSL would raise any foreign players Status by A LOT.
You're value as a player would be o so much higher when youre the only foreign GSL champion.
I think the people saying GSL doesn't make financial sense for Stephano don't understand how sports money works. You think shaq, labron, and michael jordan only make money from playing basketball?
It's not just the money you get from GSL, but the huge promotional/advertising money you can make. If stephano were TRULY in it JUST for the money, he would be like the EG guys advertising a ton of crap with his name(mobos, mice/keyboars, glasses, whatever). He already has the biggest name in the industry. Winning GSL would at best give him God-like status and make him e-sports rich.
Thing is he said he now took one last year more away from school to get as much money possible so spending all that time trying to win the GSL might not be the best way to do that.
One problem is now might be his best chance to get a GSL before the BW players start catching up to rest of players making the player field even harder then it is now.
On August 10 2012 16:37 Chessz wrote: Stephano vs Naniwa would be a joke.. nani's PvZ is very predictable and he lacks the proper control against Z flanks that other P have, such as MC. I hope they don't meet in GSL and each can make their own path to ro4.
im more of a stephano fan myself than nani fan but i wouldnt count him out at all.
i mean look at Nani vs DRG in R8, Nani had that final match but made a bad judgement and threw the game.
also considering that nani is a gsl veteran and knows how to prepare his builds, which he does really well.
If NaNi is a GSL veteran than what are SuperNoVa and NesTea? :o
On August 10 2012 16:37 Chessz wrote: Stephano vs Naniwa would be a joke.. nani's PvZ is very predictable and he lacks the proper control against Z flanks that other P have, such as MC. I hope they don't meet in GSL and each can make their own path to ro4.
im more of a stephano fan myself than nani fan but i wouldnt count him out at all.
i mean look at Nani vs DRG in R8, Nani had that final match but made a bad judgement and threw the game.
also considering that nani is a gsl veteran and knows how to prepare his builds, which he does really well.
If NaNi is a GSL veteran than what are SuperNoVa and NesTea? :o
But how are they relevant to the Naniwa - Stephano relationship? Between the 2, Naniwa is the veteran.
On August 10 2012 03:44 Simsallabin wrote: He lost to MVP.Keen who played offrace protoss
KeenMVP (whoever that is -- probably not actually Keen) pylon blocked his ramp in the game you're referencing, a strategy that obviously does not work in competitive play because of neutral supply depots. Stephano usually leaves games like that (since playing it out doesn't really help you because you'll never face that situation in a tournament). He probably played it out only because he knows there's a lot of interest in his KR laddering sessions.
It's the same Keen. At least thats the account he uses. I guess it could have been someone else playing on the account, but definitely his real account. In any case Keen and Hack are 2 terran players that have quietly become monstrous, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that really was Keen offracing. His skill is legit.
The same Keen that was stomped by Nani like 3 times 2-0 in 5 Weeks? "ok"
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Right because money is all he cares about. That's what makes him a true competitor, he's in it for the money only.
A Pro gamer play for Money??? Wow that's surprising
It might be hard for you to believe this, but true athletes love doing what they do because of reasons other than money.
You live in a dream world. The term pro = means you make money doing whatever sport you doing. If you think money isn't a top priority for any pro gamer in starcraft 2 then im sorry to break you cosy and lovely dream . Why do you think so many Koreans wanna join foreign teams? Why do you think players and teams join tournament with the highest price pools?
Money is the number 1 priority in any sport because without it then you arnt a pro gamer and you properly will never get good at it since you have to get another job to support you.
Every player in starcraft 2 needs and wants money. Stephano is just honest about it while all others don't talk about it or just feed the fans bullshit
On August 10 2012 16:37 Chessz wrote: Stephano vs Naniwa would be a joke.. nani's PvZ is very predictable and he lacks the proper control against Z flanks that other P have, such as MC. I hope they don't meet in GSL and each can make their own path to ro4.
im more of a stephano fan myself than nani fan but i wouldnt count him out at all.
i mean look at Nani vs DRG in R8, Nani had that final match but made a bad judgement and threw the game.
also considering that nani is a gsl veteran and knows how to prepare his builds, which he does really well.
If NaNi is a GSL veteran than what are SuperNoVa and NesTea? :o
Some people are talking about pros and earning money. One 1 hand i find it very good to be pro gamer, but it's very short term period, yes you can earn money, but sooner or later you'll be to old for games. You have to have backup plan!
I think Stephano has what it takes to be a GSL champ. Although, he already said in a interview that he doesnt like the GSL format of preparing for matches, he likes them one after the other like MLG or IPL.
LOL @ kids in this thread basically. Talking about that serious pro gaming money :D. Most of them play the game becuase they love it, whether they admit it or not. If you was to dedicate yourself to pretty much anything the way pro gamers do then you would make a living, what drives most of them is a love for gaming and obviously they need money to live on and the excitment of picking up a nice big cheque is always there.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Right because money is all he cares about. That's what makes him a true competitor, he's in it for the money only.
A Pro gamer play for Money??? Wow that's surprising
It might be hard for you to believe this, but true athletes love doing what they do because of reasons other than money.
You live in a dream world. The term pro = means you make money doing whatever sport you doing. If you think money isn't a top priority for any pro gamer in starcraft 2 then im sorry to break you cosy and lovely dream . Why do you think so many Koreans wanna join foreign teams? Why do you think players and teams join tournament with the highest price pools?
Money is the number 1 priority in any sport because without it then you arnt a pro gamer and you properly will never get good at it since you have to get another job to support you.
Every player in starcraft 2 needs and wants money. Stephano is just honest about it while all others don't talk about it or just feed the fans bullshit
Its quite true that money is important, but if you look at it from stephanos perspective, he probably has a good salary and makes good money even without winning big tournaments, at this point i dont think he is that concerned about it.
If he plans on quitting next year, i wouldnt be suprised if hed like to win GSL before that, even if he would skip foreign event because of gsl thats not straight up losing money, even with stephanos skills he isnt going to automaticly win all mlg,ipl tournaments.
Anyone whos saying players are on it just for the money, have clearly never done any kind of sports themselves since there is A LOT more to it than stacks of money but i wouldnt talk about "They do it for love of the game".
People still undervalue the title of GSL champion, specially if a foreign player would wield it. I would guess that IF Stephano would win GSL this year, he would play starcraft for at least 1 more year, because anyone with some perspective knows that that kind of achievment would increase your value A LOT. You would probably get insane offers from different teams, maybe even get some personal sponsors. Korean gsl champions dont get that kind of attention because they dont have the same kind of market value outside korea since most of the world seems them as just some crazy asian people.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Right because money is all he cares about. That's what makes him a true competitor, he's in it for the money only.
A Pro gamer play for Money??? Wow that's surprising
It might be hard for you to believe this, but true athletes love doing what they do because of reasons other than money.
You live in a dream world. The term pro = means you make money doing whatever sport you doing. If you think money isn't a top priority for any pro gamer in starcraft 2 then im sorry to break you cosy and lovely dream . Why do you think so many Koreans wanna join foreign teams? Why do you think players and teams join tournament with the highest price pools?
Money is the number 1 priority in any sport because without it then you arnt a pro gamer and you properly will never get good at it since you have to get another job to support you.
Every player in starcraft 2 needs and wants money. Stephano is just honest about it while all others don't talk about it or just feed the fans bullshit
Its quite true that money is important, but if you look at it from stephanos perspective, he probably has a good salary and makes good money even without winning big tournaments, at this point i dont think he is that concerned about it.
If he plans on quitting next year, i wouldnt be suprised if hed like to win GSL before that, even if he would skip foreign event because of gsl thats not straight up losing money, even with stephanos skills he isnt going to automaticly win all mlg,ipl tournaments.
Anyone whos saying players are on it just for the money, have clearly never done any kind of sports themselves since there is A LOT more to it than stacks of money but i wouldnt talk about "They do it for love of the game".
People still undervalue the title of GSL champion, specially if a foreign player would wield it. I would guess that IF Stephano would win GSL this year, he would play starcraft for at least 1 more year, because anyone with some perspective knows that that kind of achievment would increase your value A LOT. You would probably get insane offers from different teams, maybe even get some personal sponsors. Korean gsl champions dont get that kind of attention because they dont have the same kind of market value outside korea since most of the world seems them as just some crazy asian people.
Thank you! Someone who finally sees the bigger picture. It isn't just about the short term burst of cash from the prize winnings, it's the long term popularity and sponsor interest which will rake in the cash and secure a long term future of pro gaming. This is especially true if a foreigner were to win Gsl.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Right because money is all he cares about. That's what makes him a true competitor, he's in it for the money only.
A Pro gamer play for Money??? Wow that's surprising
It might be hard for you to believe this, but true athletes love doing what they do because of reasons other than money.
You live in a dream world. The term pro = means you make money doing whatever sport you doing. If you think money isn't a top priority for any pro gamer in starcraft 2 then im sorry to break you cosy and lovely dream . Why do you think so many Koreans wanna join foreign teams? Why do you think players and teams join tournament with the highest price pools?
Money is the number 1 priority in any sport because without it then you arnt a pro gamer and you properly will never get good at it since you have to get another job to support you.
Every player in starcraft 2 needs and wants money. Stephano is just honest about it while all others don't talk about it or just feed the fans bullshit
Its quite true that money is important, but if you look at it from stephanos perspective, he probably has a good salary and makes good money even without winning big tournaments, at this point i dont think he is that concerned about it.
If he plans on quitting next year, i wouldnt be suprised if hed like to win GSL before that, even if he would skip foreign event because of gsl thats not straight up losing money, even with stephanos skills he isnt going to automaticly win all mlg,ipl tournaments.
Anyone whos saying players are on it just for the money, have clearly never done any kind of sports themselves since there is A LOT more to it than stacks of money but i wouldnt talk about "They do it for love of the game".
People still undervalue the title of GSL champion, specially if a foreign player would wield it. I would guess that IF Stephano would win GSL this year, he would play starcraft for at least 1 more year, because anyone with some perspective knows that that kind of achievment would increase your value A LOT. You would probably get insane offers from different teams, maybe even get some personal sponsors. Korean gsl champions dont get that kind of attention because they dont have the same kind of market value outside korea since most of the world seems them as just some crazy asian people.
Well it's not like it's people making these things up. It's Stephano him self that have said it. He's in it to win as much money possible and that he doesn't like the GSL format. If he's trolling that's fine I guess but you sound like people are telling lies.
On August 10 2012 19:29 Cele wrote: i personally don´t expect stephano to succeed in GSL. Many of him before were expected to ahieve greatness in Korea, no one of them ever was a champ.
no, noone won multiple titles before going to korea. Naniwa won one major tournament, but he was never on the 'lol i stomp every foreigner with ease' level Stephano is for almost a year now.
Stephano is as good as the best Koreans at a offline tournament or in ladder, but GSL is quite different, because you have to prepare for a certain opponent. imo the crucial point will be if Stephano is able to do so
On August 10 2012 19:29 Cele wrote: i personally don´t expect stephano to succeed in GSL. Many of him before were expected to ahieve greatness in Korea, no one of them ever was a champ.
Excepted that he is the foreigner who did the best against koreans, that he has won multiple major tournaments with koreans in it, and that he is probably the most feared foreigner by the koreans...
On August 10 2012 21:04 Zeon0 wrote: [...] Stephano is as good as the best Koreans at a offline tournament or in ladder, but GSL is quite different, because you have to prepare for a certain opponent. imo the crucial point will be if Stephano is able to do so
Because you can prepare for a certain opponent from round to round means that cup/tournament is harder to win than "weekend tournaments"?! I don't think. In those "weekend tournaments" like MLG, IPL you have to be prepared in all matchups to win those tournaments, this is for me the crucial point for all players.
Some people seem to be forgetting that if opponents can prepare for Stephano, then he can also prepare for his opponents. It doesn't work only one way.
Good to see him getting in some dedicated practice sessions in on KR Ladder. Hopefully he will get friendly with the TSL players, many of whom he has already faced in tournaments already - Polt, Inori, Symbol, Hyun etc. Getting a better support network in Korea for practice partners/preparation can only help him.
I am not sure whether Stephano will return to TSL House after MLG though. His current contract expires with Millenium next month and he will probably switch teams which would end his time in TSL House, although not end any friendships established there.
On August 10 2012 21:04 Zeon0 wrote: [...] Stephano is as good as the best Koreans at a offline tournament or in ladder, but GSL is quite different, because you have to prepare for a certain opponent. imo the crucial point will be if Stephano is able to do so
Because you can prepare for a certain opponent from round to round means that cup/tournament is harder to win than "weekend tournaments"?! I don't think. In those "weekend tournaments" like MLG, IPL you have to be prepared in all matchups to win those tournaments, this is for me the crucial point for all players.
Not harder, but a different skill is needed. I hope you can imagine that identifying flaws in opponents gameplay in a short period of time is something completely different than doing so in a week or more..
On August 10 2012 21:04 Zeon0 wrote: [...] Stephano is as good as the best Koreans at a offline tournament or in ladder, but GSL is quite different, because you have to prepare for a certain opponent. imo the crucial point will be if Stephano is able to do so
Because you can prepare for a certain opponent from round to round means that cup/tournament is harder to win than "weekend tournaments"?! I don't think. In those "weekend tournaments" like MLG, IPL you have to be prepared in all matchups to win those tournaments, this is for me the crucial point for all players.
Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
Stephano is beast! hope he does well. Every day when the sun rises, I shall eat my Wheaties in your name- "Stephano!" I will yell, as I let each mouthful of the wheaty Wheaties resignate deep within my body. And thus, my soul shall arise- in the epitome of my delight, and I will be happy.
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
2 weeks of intensive training with Polt and Symbol will make them all better, plus KR ladder being tougher in general for when they aren't training.
2 weeks I believe is a much better time span for training as you can go all out and spend only a few days resting. If it drags over a month or two you get touristy, lazy, etc.
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
Yeah this is some TSL PR, he's good PR to them.
As he should be.
In other news, is he actually playing GSL in November? that's awesome!
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
Yeah this is some TSL PR, he's good PR to them.
As he should be.
In other news, is he actually playing GSL in November? that's awesome!
Yesterday he said during his stream, that he will try to play in a GSL before the end of the year.
On August 10 2012 21:04 Zeon0 wrote: [...] Stephano is as good as the best Koreans at a offline tournament or in ladder, but GSL is quite different, because you have to prepare for a certain opponent. imo the crucial point will be if Stephano is able to do so
Because you can prepare for a certain opponent from round to round means that cup/tournament is harder to win than "weekend tournaments"?! I don't think. In those "weekend tournaments" like MLG, IPL you have to be prepared in all matchups to win those tournaments, this is for me the crucial point for all players.
i didnt say its easier/harder. its different, Stephano hasn't prooved himself in this setting but others have
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
Too many analogies, I know...
All I know is that other pros including IdrA have said that takes months before one would see a benefit from a Korean training house. I trust their word more than your blanket statement backed up by irrelevant analogies.
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
Too many analogies, I know...
All I know is that other pros including IdrA have said that takes months before one would see a benefit from a Korean training house. I trust their word more than your blanket statement backed up by irrelevant analogies.
If it didn't help him, why would he even go? I doubt he'd take such a long trip for PR reasons as you say.
I'm certain he will improve a bit, especially in ZvZ.
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
Too many analogies, I know...
All I know is that other pros including IdrA have said that takes months before one would see a benefit from a Korean training house. I trust their word more than your blanket statement backed up by irrelevant analogies.
Don't want to offend to him, nor you if you're one of his fan, but considering Idra's (or HuK's, TLO's, ToD's) skill and results, before and after months in Korea, i wouldn't trust the gracken either.
BTW, we agree on one point : I doubt Stephano will progress much in Korea either.
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
Too many analogies, I know...
All I know is that other pros including IdrA have said that takes months before one would see a benefit from a Korean training house. I trust their word more than your blanket statement backed up by irrelevant analogies.
pretty sure this is coming from pro's that were not good enough to compete at the highest level in first place. They go to Korea, they are still not good enough to beat x, blame it on the time in korea being too short.
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
Too many analogies, I know...
All I know is that other pros including IdrA have said that takes months before one would see a benefit from a Korean training house. I trust their word more than your blanket statement backed up by irrelevant analogies.
Well shit, if IdrA said it then we shouldn't even be discussing this. He is the end all, be all, authority figure on such matters after all...
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
Too many analogies, I know...
All I know is that other pros including IdrA have said that takes months before one would see a benefit from a Korean training house. I trust their word more than your blanket statement backed up by irrelevant analogies.
Idra is not elite, and of course is 100% correct in saying for him and most pros that have gone to Korea need more time, MUCH more time. This is more in tune with my analogy in the fact that you need to be sharp in order to be fine tuned. Of all the foreigners who have gone to Korea (for SC2) even Naniwa is a far second to the skill shown by Stephano.
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
Too many analogies, I know...
All I know is that other pros including IdrA have said that takes months before one would see a benefit from a Korean training house. I trust their word more than your blanket statement backed up by irrelevant analogies.
Idra is not elite, and of course is 100% correct in saying for him and most pros that have gone to Korea need more time, MUCH more time. This is more in tune with my analogy in the fact that you need to be sharp in order to be fine tuned. Of all the foreigners who have gone to Korea (for SC2) even Naniwa is a far second to the skill shown by Stephano.
I just don't see a reason to assume that the difference in skill between Stephano and the other foreigners who have gone to Korea will bear on the amount of time it takes to see improvement from playing in Korea. Surely there is no principle that is uniform across knives, physical sports and Starcraft. The process of improving Starcraft skill is very different than those things because it is heavily dependent on building ingrained habit, which takes time. For example you dont just see a new attack timing and then magically know how to defend it. Not only that but practice at the pro level is also map dependent. Stephano is no more used to Korean playstyles, timings, refinement and metagame than huk idra etc.
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
Too many analogies, I know...
All I know is that other pros including IdrA have said that takes months before one would see a benefit from a Korean training house. I trust their word more than your blanket statement backed up by irrelevant analogies.
Well shit, if IdrA said it then we shouldn't even be discussing this. He is the end all, be all, authority figure on such matters after all...
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
Too many analogies, I know...
All I know is that other pros including IdrA have said that takes months before one would see a benefit from a Korean training house. I trust their word more than your blanket statement backed up by irrelevant analogies.
Well shit, if IdrA said it then we shouldn't even be discussing this. He is the end all, be all, authority figure on such matters after all...
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
Too many analogies, I know...
All I know is that other pros including IdrA have said that takes months before one would see a benefit from a Korean training house. I trust their word more than your blanket statement backed up by irrelevant analogies.
Well shit, if IdrA said it then we shouldn't even be discussing this. He is the end all, be all, authority figure on such matters after all...
lol anyone who tries to apply common sense that other pros say what training regiments require to be good at Sc2 stephano has already shattered. He will greatly benefit from a merely two weeks of being in a pro house like TSL training for MLG. 2 weeks of training in korea for stephano is like 2 months worth of effort for a normal pro. Anyone who watches him play can clearly see if you have any knowledge of high level play just how insane his play is and how fluent he makes it look. Not to mention that he never shows any kind of mental tilting like a fair bit of other top players.
Even him doing little things like constantly building units during middle of battle chaotic situations AND adding them to a group of units specified by the unit type while microing in fights in insane. I.E. while microing in a heated fight, control group 4 for example for hatches then build specific unit, control click larva shift add to group wanted in selected units (since he usually uses about 3 control groups for units based on type of units) then back to his hatch control group build more units control click that larva add to group back to the fight and micro some more. WHILE PLAYING VS other top players. He does this without messing up constantly and makes it look fluent. This alone to not make mistakes with is freakish. You'll notice a lot of other especially foreign zerg players in heated fights cannot do this and instead rally their units close by and then highlight to select to fight but this actually is not nearly as effective to reinforce as the way stephano does it so quickly while managing fights.
Oh and not to mention in the short period of time he's been in korea (if anyone knows that stephano has said one of his biggest weak points is that he misses injects a lot when game intensity picks up) you'll notice that in this short period of time in korea he has been keeping queen energy down and hitting injects more often.
On August 10 2012 22:13 Doodsmack wrote: Funny how this whole thread is about a mere 2 weeks in Korea lol. Considering he won't play GSL until November because he's "too busy", he probably won't be coming back to Korea right away. 2 weeks offers no benefit whatsoever...so yeah, more of a PR thing.
For a low level player two weeks is not enough time to really improve. However, for a highly skilled player like Stephano, on top of his game, this is more than enough time to fine tune his play. Just as an elite athlete can train with another for just a week or two and improve, a normal athlete would probably just be getting over being sore. Or another example would be going from course to fine when sharpening a knife. The knife has to be already sharp in order for it to continue sharpening on the fine setting.
Too many analogies, I know...
All I know is that other pros including IdrA have said that takes months before one would see a benefit from a Korean training house. I trust their word more than your blanket statement backed up by irrelevant analogies.
Well shit, if IdrA said it then we shouldn't even be discussing this. He is the end all, be all, authority figure on such matters after all...
His word is truth itself.
no doubt
it is known
I'm not sure that you guys know, but Stephano played 43 games in one day. If you continue that in two weeks on Korea server there is NO FUCKING WAY you won't improve a fuckton...
On August 13 2012 03:40 emis wrote: Korean GM with 3,5 days!
that is what i wanted to say ... but ontop of that other TSL player played on this account and had always negative winrates - lol... and he made it anyway
He will become better than he was with training. His ZvP is already good, obviously, but all of his matchups (particularly ZvT) lack the depth required to play in a more preparation based tourney like the GSL or GSTL. That's what Stephano needs to be training the most, IMO: varied styles.
On August 11 2012 02:11 SilSol wrote: I feel like Stephano is the "new" Mondragon! Like he has so big potential atm. Hope he uses it well.
Imo Stephano has surpassed Mondragon's achievements long ago.
Of course if you actually knew anything about what you're talking about or Mondragon in general, you would know that Mondragon hardly has any achievements. Therefore it doesn't take much to surpass them. Put Stephano in BW and he won't get any either. What Mondragon had, however, is skill and talent and that is only obvious to those who witnessed it.
On August 11 2012 02:11 SilSol wrote: I feel like Stephano is the "new" Mondragon! Like he has so big potential atm. Hope he uses it well.
Imo Stephano has surpassed Mondragon's achievements long ago.
wtf ? you really followed sc1 ? mondragon was the foreign monster for a DECATE for over 10 years and you say overcome after 1 year ? oh man ... sad new world ....
in sc1 even winning a map vs a korean was something BIG and he beat savior the best sc1 player of that (all?) time ... so dont talk if you dont followed sc1 for 10 years ok ? thanks alot
sure stephano is great but as he even said he not wanna life in this scene, he not wanna play more then maximal 1 more year i doubt he can be the foreign hope for the future ... (as much as i want it)
also epic haters say his winratio is low by him having played himself 74% ^^ and gm on korea ? pfff what a noob must he been to only be low gm ?? -_- guys wake up from dreamland !
Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
On August 11 2012 02:11 SilSol wrote: I feel like Stephano is the "new" Mondragon! Like he has so big potential atm. Hope he uses it well.
Imo Stephano has surpassed Mondragon's achievements long ago.
wtf ? you really followed sc1 ? mondragon was the foreign monster for a DECATE for over 10 years and you say overcome after 1 year ? oh man ... sad new world ....
in sc1 even winning a map vs a korean was something BIG and he beat savior the best sc1 player of that (all?) time ... so dont talk if you dont followed sc1 for 10 years ok ? thanks alot
sure stephano is great but as he even said he not wanna life in this scene, he not wanna play more then maximal 1 more year i doubt he can be the foreign hope for the future ... (as much as i want it)
also epic haters say his winratio is low by him having played himself 74% ^^ and gm on korea ? pfff what a noob must he been to only be low gm ?? -_- guys wake up from dreamland !
Also there is very hard to say in SC2 because in SC:BW they had close to 0 chance to be a progamer,(every foreigner had to go to korea and that wasnt the easiest).
In SC2 people can play from all over the world and be a "Pro".
Mondragon studied while being an complete monster so NO u cant really compare stephano to Mondragon
On August 11 2012 02:11 SilSol wrote: I feel like Stephano is the "new" Mondragon! Like he has so big potential atm. Hope he uses it well.
Imo Stephano has surpassed Mondragon's achievements long ago.
Of course if you actually knew anything about what you're talking about or Mondragon in general, you would know that Mondragon hardly has any achievements. Therefore it doesn't take much to surpass them. Put Stephano in BW and he won't get any either. What Mondragon had, however, is skill and talent and that is only obvious to those who witnessed it.
given that there were so few tournaments in BW, his achievement list is quite big. ECG 1st place WCG 3rd place TSL 2nd place
and thousands of 1st places in smaller german or european tournaments/ladder tournaments/clanleagues etc.
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
ahah sure. So when the best of the best say you're the best, it doesn't mean anything.
Mondragon never won any international tournament with koreans. Stephano won like 4 or 5.
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
When Jaedong say that the play that inspires him the most is Stephano's, MC saying that Stephano is top three zerg in the world with DRG and Nestea(multiple GSL champions), MKP and Polt saying that he's a genius...+All the big tourneys he won mean that he's way more relevant than what Mondragon ever was...
And lol at you hating him because he actually thinks about his post-progamer career...
if jaedong tweeted my name my life would be complete
also I think stephano is more impressive than mondragon but lets get real it's not fair to compare, they are different scenes and stephano is playing for a living.
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
ahah sure. So when the best of the best say you're the best, it doesn't mean anything.
Mondragon never won any international tournament with koreans. Stephano won like 4 or 5.
Stephano has more achievements than Mondragon.
/closed
I can guarantee none of those said Stephano is the best. They think he's good, Jaedong likes his style, but I don't think any of them thinks hes the best. The best foreigner perhaps.
SC2 has so many more tournaments than BW had. SC2 doesn't have the competition that BW had. It simply was not possible for Mondragon to win the way Stephano has.
Had Stephano been playing GSL instead of these foreign tournaments and he wouldn't have any victories either. Had Stephano been playing BW and he'd be just another foreigner unable to make any kind of waves.
My point is not that Stephano is bad, he's great, as can be demonstrated by him doing much better than other foreigners. But his achievements are also a result of him taking part in so many tournaments, and also so many players not taking part in the tournaments. There is really only GSL currently that has consistent level of competition. And that is also why you cannot look at his achievements and be like "lolo Stephano > Mondi". That's just retarded.
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
ahah sure. So when the best of the best say you're the best, it doesn't mean anything.
Mondragon never won any international tournament with koreans. Stephano won like 4 or 5.
Stephano has more achievements than Mondragon.
/closed
I can guarantee none of those said Stephano is the best. They think he's good, Jaedong likes his style, but I don't think any of them thinks hes the best. The best foreigner perhaps.
SC2 has so many more tournaments than BW had. SC2 doesn't have the competition that BW had. It simply was not possible for Mondragon to win the way Stephano has.
Had Stephano been playing GSL instead of these foreign tournaments and he wouldn't have any victories either. Had Stephano been playing BW and he'd be just another foreigner unable to make any kind of waves.
My point is not that Stephano is bad, he's great, as can be demonstrated by him doing much better than other foreigners. But his achievements are also a result of him taking part in so many tournaments, and also so many players not taking part in the tournaments. There is really only GSL currently that has consistent level of competition. And that is also why you cannot look at his achievements and be like "lolo Stephano > Mondi". That's just retarded.
don't agree! sc2 is as much or more competitive than the bw scene was/is. i think the difference is that bw had history, top players had years of intense training. and your claims he wouldn't succeed in brood war are extremely unfair. with the right training environment and enough time he could succeed just like anyone else could, and mondragon could have too.
remember... koreans trained in pro houses with all their time.. foreigners played as a hobby
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
ahah sure. So when the best of the best say you're the best, it doesn't mean anything.
Mondragon never won any international tournament with koreans. Stephano won like 4 or 5.
Stephano has more achievements than Mondragon.
/closed
The gap between Koreans and foreigners was over 25x what it is in SC2.
In SCBW you'd be lucky if ANY foreigner could take a single game off a an A-caliber (NOT S caliber) level player, even if they played them 10x.
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
ye kr ladder is complete shit nobody plays seriously on it they only offrace, and of course the opinion of a pro player isn't important, no! YOU are the one with all the knowledge!
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
ahah sure. So when the best of the best say you're the best, it doesn't mean anything.
Mondragon never won any international tournament with koreans. Stephano won like 4 or 5.
Stephano has more achievements than Mondragon.
/closed
I can guarantee none of those said Stephano is the best. They think he's good, Jaedong likes his style, but I don't think any of them thinks hes the best. The best foreigner perhaps.
SC2 has so many more tournaments than BW had. SC2 doesn't have the competition that BW had. It simply was not possible for Mondragon to win the way Stephano has.
Had Stephano been playing GSL instead of these foreign tournaments and he wouldn't have any victories either. Had Stephano been playing BW and he'd be just another foreigner unable to make any kind of waves.
My point is not that Stephano is bad, he's great, as can be demonstrated by him doing much better than other foreigners. But his achievements are also a result of him taking part in so many tournaments, and also so many players not taking part in the tournaments. There is really only GSL currently that has consistent level of competition. And that is also why you cannot look at his achievements and be like "lolo Stephano > Mondi". That's just retarded.
don't agree! sc2 is as much or more competitive than the bw scene was/is. i think the difference is that bw had history, top players had years of intense training. and your claims he wouldn't succeed in brood war are extremely unfair. with the right training environment and enough time he could succeed just like anyone else could, and mondragon could have too.
remember... koreans trained in pro houses with all their free time.. foreigners played as a hobby
I do wonder what makes you think SC2 is as much or more competetive than BW scene was. I am of course talking about the Korean scene. Years of intense training for example is a factor in how competetive a game is: it is not enough that you're talented, but you also need years of intense training. And yes, perhaps they are unfair, but also something that I feel is absurd to disagree with. I don't think everyone can succeed. No matter how much I would do, I would never be able to be a competetive sprinter. In the same way, but to a lesser extent, I don't think Stephano could have been anything special in BW (Korean scene). I don't think Mondragon could have either.
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
ahah sure. So when the best of the best say you're the best, it doesn't mean anything.
Mondragon never won any international tournament with koreans. Stephano won like 4 or 5.
Stephano has more achievements than Mondragon.
/closed
The gap between Koreans and foreigners was over 25x what it is in SC2.
In SCBW you'd be lucky if ANY foreigner could take a single game off a an A-caliber (NOT S caliber) level player, even if they played them 10x.
Gap was big because they were much worse. It's as simple as that.
It's really funny to even compare foreign BW to todays SC2 accomplishments, just look at your foreign bw heroes and how they are doing in sc2.
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
ahah sure. So when the best of the best say you're the best, it doesn't mean anything.
Mondragon never won any international tournament with koreans. Stephano won like 4 or 5.
Stephano has more achievements than Mondragon.
/closed
The gap between Koreans and foreigners was over 25x what it is in SC2.
In SCBW you'd be lucky if ANY foreigner could take a single game off a an A-caliber (NOT S caliber) level player, even if they played them 10x.
Gap was big because they were much worse. It's as simple as that.
It's really funny to even compare foreign BW to todays SC2 accomplishments, just look at your foreign bw heroes and how they are doing in sc2.
Well, a team composed of former foreign BW players is pretty much even with any other foreign team you can compose (if you don't include Stephano). Two of your favourite players thereare previously from foreign BW. I think foreign BW players are doing quite well in fact.
Also, most good foreigners today come from wc3, obviously, the most talented RTS players outside of korea was formed in that game, either because of how there was a lot more, and global competition that made players outside of Korea take the game more serious.
Or perhabs the game was more appealing . Currently only Moon seems to(afaik) be doing decent in sc2 coming from wc3. Lyn was also pretty good, but he is probably now playing wc3 parttime since he moved to China. Not sure if someone in Korea who is currently good comes from wc3.
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
ahah sure. So when the best of the best say you're the best, it doesn't mean anything.
Mondragon never won any international tournament with koreans. Stephano won like 4 or 5.
Stephano has more achievements than Mondragon.
/closed
The gap between Koreans and foreigners was over 25x what it is in SC2.
In SCBW you'd be lucky if ANY foreigner could take a single game off a an A-caliber (NOT S caliber) level player, even if they played them 10x.
Gap was big because they were much worse. It's as simple as that.
It's really funny to even compare foreign BW to todays SC2 accomplishments, just look at your foreign bw heroes and how they are doing in sc2.
Well, a team composed of former foreign BW players is pretty much even with any other foreign team you can compose (if you don't include Stephano). Two of your favourite players thereare previously from foreign BW. I think foreign BW players are doing quite well in fact.
Ok ill bite.
Thorzain Naniwa Nerchio Scarlet Sase Kas Lucifron
And I just named a few please make a foreign BW team that could even take a map of these gents and ladies. Fact is all the old BW players was amateurs they didn't make a living of BW. Today the new generation of professional starcraft 2 players are in a completely different level simply because most of them are professional.
On August 13 2012 06:28 Zeborg wrote: Former foreign WC3 players are also doing well: stephano, grubby, naniwa, lucifron, thorzain, sase to name a few.
Well the different between the former WC3 players and BW players is the WC3 players was professional and was living in other countries and competing at highest level. And I expect its one of the main reason why there switch has become so successfully compared to the foreign BW players
On August 13 2012 06:26 Cinim wrote: Also, most good foreigners today come from wc3, obviously, the most talented RTS players outside of korea was formed in that game, either because of how there was a lot more, and global competition that made players outside of Korea take the game more serious.
Or perhabs the game was more appealing . Currently only Moon seems to(afaik) be doing decent in sc2 coming from wc3. Lyn was also pretty good, but he is probably now playing wc3 parttime since he moved to China. Not sure if someone in Korea who is currently good comes from wc3.
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
ahah sure. So when the best of the best say you're the best, it doesn't mean anything.
Mondragon never won any international tournament with koreans. Stephano won like 4 or 5.
Stephano has more achievements than Mondragon.
/closed
The gap between Koreans and foreigners was over 25x what it is in SC2.
In SCBW you'd be lucky if ANY foreigner could take a single game off a an A-caliber (NOT S caliber) level player, even if they played them 10x.
Gap was big because they were much worse. It's as simple as that.
It's really funny to even compare foreign BW to todays SC2 accomplishments, just look at your foreign bw heroes and how they are doing in sc2.
Well, a team composed of former foreign BW players is pretty much even with any other foreign team you can compose (if you don't include Stephano). Two of your favourite players thereare previously from foreign BW. I think foreign BW players are doing quite well in fact.
Ok ill bite.
Thorzain Naniwa Nerchio Scarlet Sase Kas Lucifron
And I just named a few please make a foreign BW team that could even take a map of these gents and ladies. Fact is all the old BW players was amateurs they didnt make a living of BW. Today the new generation of professional starcraft 2 players are in a completely different level simply becuase they are all professional.
Okay, I'll try:
Nerchio (yes, he's from BW) Sen Mana Ret SortOf Fraer
wtf is that bw vs wc3 talk here... we have 2012 guys oO
also, its obvious that wc3 players do better outside of korea, simply cause there were more of them on a high level. same goes for bw players in korea, although its far more extreme there
On August 13 2012 06:38 Squeegy wrote: Gap was big because they were much worse. It's as simple as that.
It's really funny to even compare foreign BW to todays SC2 accomplishments, just look at your foreign bw heroes and how they are doing in sc2.
Uhm, majority of the top SC2 players were former B-team SC:BW players.
Had Jaedong, Flash, Bisu started playing SC2 from the beginning, who knows how things would have turned out for the current SC2 top players. It's all speculation, but don't talk about SC:BW when you obviously know NOTHING about it. In the beginning of SC:BW, foreigners (eg: Grrrr, Elky) were keeping up and beating the top Korean players, much like how Stephano is doing today. If Stephano can keep it up for four years as the Korean SC2 scene progresses then you can say he out-performed Mondragon.
Stephano is, without a doubt, the best foreign player, but I wouldn't say he's a top 5 player in the world. I'd put DRG, MC, MVP, and some other Korean Terrans ahead of him. What you don't understand is that 4-6 years from now, if SC2 follows the same popularity pattern as SC:BW - not happening at the moment though - there will be 30+ replicas of MC, DRG and MVP in the Korean scene. Suddenly, Stephano won't even be in the top 30 anymore.
others, none or both quite equally: #21 #22 #26 #28 #30
so we have an edge for wc3 players here.
if i take my point-system (as i did for races and teams), it would be:
Wc3: 190,5 BW: 157
I think the point is mostly that WC3 had it's Grubbys and Moons switch. A lot of the guys people consider the most talented from BW didn't, and those who did, seem not to have really went all-in so to speak.
Also. Morrow and SortOf are from BW, so if I fixed your caluclations correctly, the numbers would be 180 and 176.
On August 13 2012 06:33 Cinim wrote: to Benjamin, Liquidret, Sen, Killer, Mana, White-ra and Strelok.
For sure, they aren't nearly as strong, although you could have easy made a better team(Scarlet? really? lol)
But I'm sure they could take a game
I just picked some random players I knew who wasnt BW players hehe. But my point was you cant compare the BW scene to the starcraft 2 scene. Most of the foreign players in starcraft 2 is professional players who do this for a living.
On August 13 2012 06:33 Cinim wrote: to Benjamin, Liquidret, Sen, Killer, Mana, White-ra and Strelok.
For sure, they aren't nearly as strong, although you could have easy made a better team(Scarlet? really? lol)
But I'm sure they could take a game
I just picked some random players I knew who wasnt BW players hehe. But my point was you cant compare the BW scene to the starcraft 2 scene. Most of the foreign players in starcraft 2 is professional players who do this for a living.
And to be exact, you didn't actually even know who are or are not BW players. Heh heh. Why not? Roughly speaking, it is the same BW foreigners, who represent the foreign SC2 scene pretty well, getting beat by the same Koreans. And these Koreans mostly played very seriously already in BW, so I see no reason to believe that they have all began to blossom only in SC2. It seems to me like playing professionaly hasn't changed all that much. And I expect the skill gap to grow in the future with the coming of Kespa.
I do admit that the foreign scene is overall more competetive than it was in BW.
The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote: The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
But that is to ignore a key factor in how proscenes are born and sustained: foreigners never had as many players sticking to the game. The consequence is, of course, that foreigners lack talent. It is talent and practise that makes perfect. There are a few Mondragons and Stephanos, yes, but there are no Jaedongs and Flashes. That is why training alone will not do, you also need talent. And you will find more talent when you have more people. That is why to increase the chances of seeing a foreign Flash, you will need the scene to grow. These BW and WC3 foreigners are not enough.
Kinda funny how the sc2 and bw scenes are always compared when the sc2 global developement is actually a lot closer to war3.
In warcraft 3, the koreans were dominant but the foreigners always had a fighting chance and the very best ones were capable of taking down major tournaments.
There were also tons of koreans on foreign teams and, more generally, a ton more money in the international scene than in the korean one (just like in sc2 today) while it was obviously the other way around in bw.
On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote: The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
But that is to ignore a key factor in how proscenes are born and sustained: foreigners never had as many players sticking to the game. The consequence is, of course, that foreigners lack talent. It is talent and practise that makes perfect. There are a few Mondragons and Stephanos, yes, but there are no Jaedongs and Flashes. That is why training alone will not do, you also need talent. And you will find more talent when you have more people. That is why to increase the chances of seeing a foreign Flash, you will need the scene to grow. These BW and WC3 foreigners are not enough.
I think the foreign scene is definitely large enough to find these talents. Now we just need the training.
On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote: The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
But that is to ignore a key factor in how proscenes are born and sustained: foreigners never had as many players sticking to the game. The consequence is, of course, that foreigners lack talent. It is talent and practise that makes perfect. There are a few Mondragons and Stephanos, yes, but there are no Jaedongs and Flashes. That is why training alone will not do, you also need talent. And you will find more talent when you have more people. That is why to increase the chances of seeing a foreign Flash, you will need the scene to grow. These BW and WC3 foreigners are not enough.
In the end it's all about practice, not the absurd word what people call talent. The reason why people at foreigner scene aren't as good as Korean's isn't because they don't practice enough (Well, maybe for some it is), but because the quality of their practice isn't as good as Korean's. In doesn't matter how big amount of "talent" you got if there are other players practising in team houses like IM.
I don't agree at all that it has something to do with talent, talent isn't something that actually exist. When you look at Usain Bolt, you can hear people call him talented, but for him one obvious reason why he's the best is that his body build, thus it's not talent just physical body. Now when you have such a body the only way to actually become the best in the end, is just to practice.
On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote: The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
But that is to ignore a key factor in how proscenes are born and sustained: foreigners never had as many players sticking to the game. The consequence is, of course, that foreigners lack talent. It is talent and practise that makes perfect. There are a few Mondragons and Stephanos, yes, but there are no Jaedongs and Flashes. That is why training alone will not do, you also need talent. And you will find more talent when you have more people. That is why to increase the chances of seeing a foreign Flash, you will need the scene to grow. These BW and WC3 foreigners are not enough.
This makes no sense. Foreigners outnumber Koreans by a factor 10 at least, what they lack is not talent, they lack talented people who are willing to train like Koreans and infrastructure to support them while they do.
And as far as talent goes, i'm pretty sure Stephano is one of the most gifted players in the game, he lacks training discipline and support but still manages to be among the absolute best.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Need is a relative term but will his fame and fortune rise exponentially is he wins it? Yes, it will.
Winning GSL is the most "money worthy" thing Stephano could ever do. Aside from the huge payout, winning it as the first non-Korean would grant him heavy leverage for any salary negotiations. Talk shows and media would be all over him. His fame will rise from Most Hyped up Foreigner to an actual Legend.
i think that for the foreign scene to catch up, they need a team house with strict korean style management and coaches to push them along. The players themselves will need the determination and drive to practice 8+ hours everyday in this environment and be willing to take constructive criticism and feedback.
On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote: The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
which is precisely why Mondi and Stephano are incomparable in their success
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Need is a relative term but will his fame and fortune rise exponentially is he wins it? Yes, it will.
Winning GSL is the most "money worthy" thing Stephano could ever do. Aside from the huge payout, winning it as the first non-Korean would grant him heavy leverage for any salary negotiations. Talk shows and media would be all over him. His fame will rise from Most Hyped up Foreigner to an actual Legend.
QFT. This man speaks words of wisdom. The $45,000 USD prize for winning GSL is a small bonus to the numerous intangible perks of winning, especially for a foreigner.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Need is a relative term but will his fame and fortune rise exponentially is he wins it? Yes, it will.
Winning GSL is the most "money worthy" thing Stephano could ever do. Aside from the huge payout, winning it as the first non-Korean would grant him heavy leverage for any salary negotiations. Talk shows and media would be all over him. His fame will rise from Most Hyped up Foreigner to an actual Legend.
You need also see the other side of the coin in case he just gets knocked out in the Ro. 32, which might make him actually lose a lot of his fame and the hype that's around him.
On August 13 2012 08:31 Kahlgar wrote: In warcraft 3, the koreans were dominant but the foreigners always had a fighting chance and the very best ones were capable of taking down major tournaments.
which is not the case for sc2. except for stephano and naniwa who can compete with the koreans, you don't have a foreigner worthy of code s anymore. that's rough.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Need is a relative term but will his fame and fortune rise exponentially is he wins it? Yes, it will.
Winning GSL is the most "money worthy" thing Stephano could ever do. Aside from the huge payout, winning it as the first non-Korean would grant him heavy leverage for any salary negotiations. Talk shows and media would be all over him. His fame will rise from Most Hyped up Foreigner to an actual Legend.
You need also see the other side of the coin in case he just gets knocked out in the Ro. 32, which might make him actually lose a lot of his fame and the hype that's around him.
I doubt getting knocked out in Ro. 32 will hurt his fame and hype. It's 1 tournament. Yea, he's expected to go further than that, but shit happens.
Now on the other hand, if he goes on some shitty losing romp in several GSL's, then that would probably hurt him. But this is Stephano... that doesn't happen.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Need is a relative term but will his fame and fortune rise exponentially is he wins it? Yes, it will.
Winning GSL is the most "money worthy" thing Stephano could ever do. Aside from the huge payout, winning it as the first non-Korean would grant him heavy leverage for any salary negotiations. Talk shows and media would be all over him. His fame will rise from Most Hyped up Foreigner to an actual Legend.
You need also see the other side of the coin in case he just gets knocked out in the Ro. 32, which might make him actually lose a lot of his fame and the hype that's around him.
Or the other side of the coin (yes coins have 3 sides), where he keeps avoiding GSL and people get sick and tired of all the hype and running away from the world's toughest competition. Its a proving ground really, Stephano doesn't even have to win GSL to consolidate his reputation as the best foreigner. Round of 8 or higher will be sufficient.
On August 09 2012 22:11 Polygamy wrote: He really needs to play a GSL already
No. He doesn't need it.
You want to see him playing in GSL, and it's perfectly understandable, but neither his fame, neither his bank account need it.
GSL is not "money worthy" for a player like Stephano.
Need is a relative term but will his fame and fortune rise exponentially is he wins it? Yes, it will.
Winning GSL is the most "money worthy" thing Stephano could ever do. Aside from the huge payout, winning it as the first non-Korean would grant him heavy leverage for any salary negotiations. Talk shows and media would be all over him. His fame will rise from Most Hyped up Foreigner to an actual Legend.
You need also see the other side of the coin in case he just gets knocked out in the Ro. 32, which might make him actually lose a lot of his fame and the hype that's around him.
exactly. Dont compete and keep mystique while beating people in tournaments whose format benefit your style.
On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote: The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
But that is to ignore a key factor in how proscenes are born and sustained: foreigners never had as many players sticking to the game. The consequence is, of course, that foreigners lack talent. It is talent and practise that makes perfect. There are a few Mondragons and Stephanos, yes, but there are no Jaedongs and Flashes. That is why training alone will not do, you also need talent. And you will find more talent when you have more people. That is why to increase the chances of seeing a foreign Flash, you will need the scene to grow. These BW and WC3 foreigners are not enough.
I think the foreign scene is definitely large enough to find these talents. Now we just need the training.
On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote: The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
But that is to ignore a key factor in how proscenes are born and sustained: foreigners never had as many players sticking to the game. The consequence is, of course, that foreigners lack talent. It is talent and practise that makes perfect. There are a few Mondragons and Stephanos, yes, but there are no Jaedongs and Flashes. That is why training alone will not do, you also need talent. And you will find more talent when you have more people. That is why to increase the chances of seeing a foreign Flash, you will need the scene to grow. These BW and WC3 foreigners are not enough.
In the end it's all about practice, not the absurd word what people call talent. The reason why people at foreigner scene aren't as good as Korean's isn't because they don't practice enough (Well, maybe for some it is), but because the quality of their practice isn't as good as Korean's. In doesn't matter how big amount of "talent" you got if there are other players practising in team houses like IM.
I don't agree at all that it has something to do with talent, talent isn't something that actually exist. When you look at Usain Bolt, you can hear people call him talented, but for him one obvious reason why he's the best is that his body build, thus it's not talent just physical body. Now when you have such a body the only way to actually become the best in the end, is just to practice.
In the end it is about practise and talent. In Usain Bolt's case, yes, the dimensions of his body give him that extra edge. In some games like Chess it is being able to think far enough ahead. In RTS it is something else. Some people are able to draw much better than I ever could when they're just children. Of course I don't mean to simplify things and say it is just one quality in person that people need to succeed. One can have talent in learning or being able to focus completely on a single thing, making practise more efficient for example. But rest assured, it is not all about practise. Talent is something innate. And that is why a monkey can never beat me in chess, and even if one could, it wouldn't take too much effort from me to win again. In humans the difference is much more subtle but it is still there.
On August 13 2012 07:44 Type|NarutO wrote: The gap between non-Koreans and Koreans in Broodwar came from a lack of proscene in the foreign scene. You couldn't live off of Broodwar and we were behind a few years if it comes down to progaming. In Starcraft 2 we were on even ground and now we are behind. And quote was has been said thousands of times in the past
Koreans are not better because they are Korean, they are better because they devote a ton of time into the game and have very good training partners.
But that is to ignore a key factor in how proscenes are born and sustained: foreigners never had as many players sticking to the game. The consequence is, of course, that foreigners lack talent. It is talent and practise that makes perfect. There are a few Mondragons and Stephanos, yes, but there are no Jaedongs and Flashes. That is why training alone will not do, you also need talent. And you will find more talent when you have more people. That is why to increase the chances of seeing a foreign Flash, you will need the scene to grow. These BW and WC3 foreigners are not enough.
This makes no sense. Foreigners outnumber Koreans by a factor 10 at least, what they lack is not talent, they lack talented people who are willing to train like Koreans and infrastructure to support them while they do.
And as far as talent goes, i'm pretty sure Stephano is one of the most gifted players in the game, he lacks training discipline and support but still manages to be among the absolute best.
It doesn't make sense to you because you don't know the background of which I am talking about. Foreigners do not outnumber Koreans 10 to 1. BW had a huge Korean scene and SC2 is now reaping its benefits. The scene had, I dare say, far more people play the game seriously than any foreigner scene so far has. What that means is that you had so many practise hard while sharing a common goal. Only the most hardworking and talented players would end up at the top. In the foreign scene you had to be more a diehard fan doing it out of love for the game to play seriously because of the lack of future prospects. Therefore many of those with talent never stuck with the game and also those who did, did not have to practise that hard. So this means the foreign scene needs to work harder but also that there isn't enough talent in the bunch.
I am oversimplifying things with my examples as there are so many variables to consider. For example it is possible that a scene has just a single player who also happens to be the most talented there can be. My point is that this is very unlikely. I am talking in the general sense.
And to conclude: I think to be the best you need to satisfy a few conditions: You need to have the talent, so as to have the potential to be the best. You need to love what you're doing, so as to have the motivation to practise enough to reach your potential. You need to play in the right environment, so as to get the maximum benefit out of your practise.
Khaldor just said Stephano is at the GSL studios "talking things over" with some people and that he's leaving on Saturday. However, he'll be returning "soon" according to Khaldor.
So there shouldn't be any doubt he's going back. Probably for Code S next month.
On August 13 2012 18:24 Kiyo. wrote: Khaldor just said Stephano is at the GSL studios "talking things over" with some people and that he's leaving on Saturday. However, he'll be returning "soon" according to Khaldor.
So there shouldn't be any doubt he's going back. Probably for Code S next month.
On August 13 2012 18:24 Kiyo. wrote: Khaldor just said Stephano is at the GSL studios "talking things over" with some people and that he's leaving on Saturday. However, he'll be returning "soon" according to Khaldor.
So there shouldn't be any doubt he's going back. Probably for Code S next month.
On August 13 2012 18:24 Kiyo. wrote: Khaldor just said Stephano is at the GSL studios "talking things over" with some people and that he's leaving on Saturday. However, he'll be returning "soon" according to Khaldor.
So there shouldn't be any doubt he's going back. Probably for Code S next month.
He already said November or December..
Soon indicates September/October to me, not November/December.
On August 13 2012 18:24 Kiyo. wrote: Khaldor just said Stephano is at the GSL studios "talking things over" with some people and that he's leaving on Saturday. However, he'll be returning "soon" according to Khaldor.
So there shouldn't be any doubt he's going back. Probably for Code S next month.
On August 13 2012 18:24 Kiyo. wrote: Khaldor just said Stephano is at the GSL studios "talking things over" with some people and that he's leaving on Saturday. However, he'll be returning "soon" according to Khaldor.
So there shouldn't be any doubt he's going back. Probably for Code S next month.
He already said November or December..
Soon indicates September/October to me, not November/December.
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
You forgot MKPs 20 smurfs and the other smurf accounts of all the top pro gamers.
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
I wouldn't call it an embarassment since someone in GM league need to be inactive for you to be able to get to Korean GM. Nowadays the korean GM league is harder and more active because there are also alot of kespa players. But it is clearly not an achievement for top foreigners to get there. It is not even an achievement to be top16 there, more of a nice indicator that you are in good shape. Stephano is aiming for top 3 zerg and top 1 foreigner so being top 100 in korean GM is not that impressive, especially since many players are not playing 100% there. What is impressive is his level of play and his improvement since he arrived 4 days ago.
others, none or both quite equally: #21 #22 #26 #28 #30
so we have an edge for wc3 players here.
if i take my point-system (as i did for races and teams), it would be:
Wc3: 190,5 BW: 157
I think the point is mostly that WC3 had it's Grubbys and Moons switch. A lot of the guys people consider the most talented from BW didn't, and those who did, seem not to have really went all-in so to speak.
Also. Morrow and SortOf are from BW, so if I fixed your caluclations correctly, the numbers would be 180 and 176.
Even though Moon and grubby switched, the majority of the top tier from wc3 didn't switch. and moon just switched 6 months ago. People like Remind, Sky, Fly100%, Lucifer etc etc have still not switched yet and might not do it at all.
On his stream, he said that his trip is already good for him, even if it's been only 4 or 5 days. He said he "already improved quite much, working on (his) mechanics and creep spread that is way better now". Also, he has way more fun than he used to when he was in Korea 9 months ago.
He also said that he doesn't like to practice against the same guy again and again in custom game. He said that's because he did like 100 ZvP against Mana lately that Mana managed to beat him twice in tournaments. That's why he prefers the lader to train his mechanics and ZvZ.
Amongst others things, he said that he was too busy until november to do any GSL or GSTL.
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
What is impressive is his level of play and his improvement since he arrived 4 days ago.
I haven't watched him a lot, is the improvement really noticable, in 4 days? I mean he was pretty sick already, can you make a few points of why you think he improved?
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
nestea and MVP aren't GM in korea. MC is also in master league. Does this mean they should be embarassed even more than the foreigners?
On August 13 2012 21:14 Eee wrote: Even though Moon and grubby switched, the majority of the top tier from wc3 didn't switch. and moon just switched 6 months ago. People like Remind, Sky, Fly100%, Lucifer etc etc have still not switched yet and might not do it at all.
Moon switched to sc2 in beta dude not 6m onths ago.
On August 13 2012 21:14 Eee wrote: Even though Moon and grubby switched, the majority of the top tier from wc3 didn't switch. and moon just switched 6 months ago. People like Remind, Sky, Fly100%, Lucifer etc etc have still not switched yet and might not do it at all.
Moon switched to sc2 in beta dude not 6m onths ago.
On August 13 2012 21:14 Eee wrote: Even though Moon and grubby switched, the majority of the top tier from wc3 didn't switch. and moon just switched 6 months ago. People like Remind, Sky, Fly100%, Lucifer etc etc have still not switched yet and might not do it at all.
Moon switched to sc2 in beta dude not 6m onths ago.
Full time.
You're really naive if you think that keep playing War3 means spliting your practice time 50-50. I'm pretty sure Kespa's training is also more towards a 75-25 or 80-20 ratio than a 50-50 which makes no sense whatsoever (both from a personal and team view) considering Starcraft 2 is the future.
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
What is impressive is his level of play and his improvement since he arrived 4 days ago.
I haven't watched him a lot, is the improvement really noticable, in 4 days? I mean he was pretty sick already, can you make a few points of why you think he improved?
I think he improved because has got better mechanics (like the creepspread), and used more strategies (like the 4 queens ZvT). You can also see some improvement overall from day to day (in map awareness, micro, decision making, mechanics) even if it is maybe not his best games ever.
edit: i noticed that there is somebody playing on this acc again while stephano is not streaming. given the win/loss ratio is much worse (like even) in that not streamed games leads to the assumption there is someone other playing on this acc. i wish they would not do that, so we can see his real run (it doesn't affect his ranking too much but... ya 8[ )
others, none or both quite equally: #21 #22 #26 #28 #30
so we have an edge for wc3 players here.
if i take my point-system (as i did for races and teams), it would be:
Wc3: 190,5 BW: 157
I think the point is mostly that WC3 had it's Grubbys and Moons switch. A lot of the guys people consider the most talented from BW didn't, and those who did, seem not to have really went all-in so to speak.
Also. Morrow and SortOf are from BW, so if I fixed your caluclations correctly, the numbers would be 180 and 176.
Even though Moon and grubby switched, the majority of the top tier from wc3 didn't switch. and moon just switched 6 months ago. People like Remind, Sky, Fly100%, Lucifer etc etc have still not switched yet and might not do it at all.
Moon definately did not start sc2 6 months ago, moon been playing since the beta and he was one of the first koreans to start going to MLG,He was in Season 1 of the NASL, He also was in the finals of dreamhack vs huk very long ago.
Remind switched, he was caught at a gsl qualifier a couple seasons ago by khaldor, he did not qualify for code A, He got knocked out in the 2nd round,he plays protoss. Sky hasnt switched, but he has been playing starcraft 2, he plays terran and a while ago there was a showmatch between moon vs sky in both warcraft 3 and starcraft 2, moon won both of them. My guess is sky was not really improving at sc2 and quit trying to make it work
I havent heard anything about fly as yet for sc2. Same with lucifer, however i would not consider lucifer like some ultimate player, Grubby used to beat him all the time and grubby isnt at the top of sc2 like he was for war3. All the top war3 pros arent putting up results in sc2 like they did in warcraft 3. Lyn got knocked out of GSL completely, Focus fizzled out after season 1 or 2 of the GSL, i cant remember , but focus was playing protoss and was pretty fucking bad.
The lesser warcraft 3 pros like Stephano/naniwa/Sase/Thorzain are all leaps and bounds better in sc2 . Being the best at one game does not mean you will automatically be the best at another game. Its the same for the kespa players, While some might reach the very top (the flash's /jaedongs/,storks/bisu etc) i dont expect all them to do exactly to well in sc2.
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
What is impressive is his level of play and his improvement since he arrived 4 days ago.
I haven't watched him a lot, is the improvement really noticable, in 4 days? I mean he was pretty sick already, can you make a few points of why you think he improved?
I think he improved because has got better mechanics (like the creepspread), and used more strategies (like the 4 queens ZvT). You can also see some improvement overall from day to day (in map awareness, micro, decision making, mechanics) even if it is maybe not his best games ever.
seems kinda vague, would be crazy if it's true. i don't think we are considering that anyway, just his overall skill level before he arrived in korea. i also asked for a list of players in korea GM, were those players "dominating" as stephano? doesn't seem so.
also i think ladder shouldn't be an indicator of skill anyway at such a high level, players such as naniwa is GSL quarter finalist twice, losing to MVP then DRG... he practises a heck ton and we can see it.
all in all, if stephano wants to demonstrate his skill, rather than the "i want money since i probably won't win GSL" attitude, he should play at the (regular season)GSL. but it is highly doubtful :/
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
What is impressive is his level of play and his improvement since he arrived 4 days ago.
I haven't watched him a lot, is the improvement really noticable, in 4 days? I mean he was pretty sick already, can you make a few points of why you think he improved?
I think he improved because has got better mechanics (like the creepspread), and used more strategies (like the 4 queens ZvT). You can also see some improvement overall from day to day (in map awareness, micro, decision making, mechanics) even if it is maybe not his best games ever.
seems kinda vague, would be crazy if it's true. i don't think we are considering that anyway, just his overall skill level before he arrived in korea. i also asked for a list of players in korea GM, were those players "dominating" as stephano? doesn't seem so.
also i think ladder shouldn't be an indicator of skill anyway at such a high level, players such as naniwa is GSL quarter finalist twice, losing to MVP then DRG... he practises a heck ton and we can see it.
all in all, if stephano wants to demonstrate his skill, rather than the "i want money since i probably won't win GSL" attitude, he should play at the (regular season)GSL. but it is highly doubtful :/
Stephano said on stream that he will play gsl eventually, Just a matter of it needing to align up at a good time for him when there is not to many other events going on. I do not think he is as "scared" as people trying to make him seem to be for playing the gsl. He has proven numerous times he can adapt to whatever any player is doing. He gets critized at times for doing the same strat alot, but then when i watch other zergs they do the same shit as well. Its not like zerg has alot of units. They only have a few which makes it seem they do the same shit every game. Since Stephano has came onto the scene he is the last person that should be critized for his play style.
Stephano has basically changed 2 matchup meta games completely. Nobody was going ling/infestor/ultralisk /double upgrades before ipl3. Stephano revolutionized ZvT. Nobody was 12 minute roach maxing vs protoss. Stephano has revolutionized that strategy and everybody followed suit. Stephano has been going ultralisks in ZvZ ever since he started streaming way before ipl 3. As stephano go's ultralisks against violet in MLG arena and owns him, he changed the meta AGAIN. All of a sudden zergs be massing ultralisks late game instead of roach roach roach roach roach /infestor like it used to be for everybody else.
Stephano has /always has been doing every strat available to zerg since he came out. Even in ipl 3 people where people were like man he loves his lings massing, but never paid attention to the fact that everytime on shakrus he went mutalisks in ZvT. Its just like how people always classified puma as a 1/1/1 cheeser when the majority of pumas games did not have 1/1/1 in them. Thats just what he gets remembered for all the time.
When protoss gos fast 3 base, he goes mutalisks against them, when protoss blind counter his 12 minute max roach rush u see him go mass Lings instead. When stephano was always dieing to hellion/marine/marauder all ins from polt, He changed the zvt meta again, by ALWAYS going roachs in the matchup no matter what. Even if its just for defense.
Anyway i might be riding his cock a little to much, just saying he is the last person people should really critize for doing the same thing again and again. If it not broken, no need to fix it. And just when you least expect it, he always throws atleast 1 curve ball in for most of his series against everybody throwing them completely off guard. Mc get caught with mass mutalisks, Polt gets 10 pooled, Ryung got mutalisk massed and got caught with no AA. The list go's on and on.
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
You do realize that the Korean GM is like 40 people right?
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
You do realize that the Korean GM is like 40 people right?
Apparantly he is new to the idea of people smurfing. How many accounts in the top 5 of GM did Creator have at a time again? Was it 3 or 4?
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
What is impressive is his level of play and his improvement since he arrived 4 days ago.
I haven't watched him a lot, is the improvement really noticable, in 4 days? I mean he was pretty sick already, can you make a few points of why you think he improved?
I think he improved because has got better mechanics (like the creepspread), and used more strategies (like the 4 queens ZvT). You can also see some improvement overall from day to day (in map awareness, micro, decision making, mechanics) even if it is maybe not his best games ever.
seems kinda vague, would be crazy if it's true. i don't think we are considering that anyway, just his overall skill level before he arrived in korea. i also asked for a list of players in korea GM, were those players "dominating" as stephano? doesn't seem so.
also i think ladder shouldn't be an indicator of skill anyway at such a high level, players such as naniwa is GSL quarter finalist twice, losing to MVP then DRG... he practises a heck ton and we can see it.
all in all, if stephano wants to demonstrate his skill, rather than the "i want money since i probably won't win GSL" attitude, he should play at the (regular season)GSL. but it is highly doubtful :/
Stephano said on stream that he will play gsl eventually, Just a matter of it needing to align up at a good time for him when there is not to many other events going on. I do not think he is as "scared" as people trying to make him seem to be for playing the gsl. He has proven numerous times he can adapt to whatever any player is doing. He gets critized at times for doing the same strat alot, but then when i watch other zergs they do the same shit as well. Its not like zerg has alot of units. They only have a few which makes it seem they do the same shit every game. Since Stephano has came onto the scene he is the last person that should be critized for his play style.
Stephano has basically changed 2 matchup meta games completely. Nobody was going ling/infestor/ultralisk /double upgrades before ipl3. Stephano revolutionized ZvT. Nobody was 12 minute roach maxing vs protoss. Stephano has revolutionized that strategy and everybody followed suit. Stephano has been going ultralisks in ZvZ ever since he started streaming way before ipl 3. As stephano go's ultralisks against violet in MLG arena and owns him, he changed the meta AGAIN. All of a sudden zergs be massing ultralisks late game instead of roach roach roach roach roach /infestor like it used to be for everybody else.
Stephano has /always has been doing every strat available to zerg since he came out. Even in ipl 3 people where people were like man he loves his lings massing, but never paid attention to the fact that everytime on shakrus he went mutalisks in ZvT. Its just like how people always classified puma as a 1/1/1 cheeser when the majority of pumas games did not have 1/1/1 in them. Thats just what he gets remembered for all the time.
When protoss gos fast 3 base, he goes mutalisks against them, when protoss blind counter his 12 minute max roach rush u see him go mass Lings instead. When stephano was always dieing to hellion/marine/marauder all ins from polt, He changed the zvt meta again, by ALWAYS going roachs in the matchup no matter what. Even if its just for defense.
Anyway i might be riding his cock a little to much, just saying he is the last person people should really critize for doing the same thing again and again. If it not broken, no need to fix it. And just when you least expect it, he always throws atleast 1 curve ball in for most of his series against everybody throwing them completely off guard. Mc get caught with mass mutalisks, Polt gets 10 pooled, Ryung got mutalisk massed and got caught with no AA. The list go's on and on.
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
What is impressive is his level of play and his improvement since he arrived 4 days ago.
I haven't watched him a lot, is the improvement really noticable, in 4 days? I mean he was pretty sick already, can you make a few points of why you think he improved?
I think he improved because has got better mechanics (like the creepspread), and used more strategies (like the 4 queens ZvT). You can also see some improvement overall from day to day (in map awareness, micro, decision making, mechanics) even if it is maybe not his best games ever.
seems kinda vague, would be crazy if it's true. i don't think we are considering that anyway, just his overall skill level before he arrived in korea. i also asked for a list of players in korea GM, were those players "dominating" as stephano? doesn't seem so.
also i think ladder shouldn't be an indicator of skill anyway at such a high level, players such as naniwa is GSL quarter finalist twice, losing to MVP then DRG... he practises a heck ton and we can see it.
all in all, if stephano wants to demonstrate his skill, rather than the "i want money since i probably won't win GSL" attitude, he should play at the (regular season)GSL. but it is highly doubtful :/
"that ladder shouldn't be an indicator of skill" sounds too generalized to me. i would agree that is ONE but not the best indicator. but in stephano's case... i mean did you watch him? i watched a fuckton, hardly missed a game i think (left my pc only to buy food when he streamed, lol). he just slaughtered the most of his opponents, dropping a game here and there against a cheese or an good timed all-in. but in straight up macro games he just seems to be unstoppable. in most cases in seems close to a certain point where a bigger angagement happens and he just shows unbelievebal micro, decision making, runbys, deflecting drops all at the same time and from there on it snowballs into a massacre (the way he overwhelms his opponent is really impressive) and this is like 8 of ten games the case. the consistency of his play is frighteing. from first to last game just absently starring at his screen, pulling out the sickest moves while listening to oldschool rock lol It is just that big difference of watching other streams maybe MKP or such names can be compared. but when you see how really good players have hard times in ladder - there is simply no other foreigner who is rampaging on korean ladder like he does. it's enough prove of skill, at least for me.
also he doesn't need to demonstrate his skill to ANYONE just check sc2earnings.com or his TLPD - all proves you need. and i don't think he should play in a regular GSL season - it's too long, too less money for that time spend, the practice and style of preparation for each opponent doesn't fits to him as good. if he would have to travel more than he travels nowadays it might just be too much. and he simply could make more money by taking the big tournaments around the world which are held within few days.
tl;dr - if you watch him closly in which way he's slaughtering those toptiers on KR ladder there is not much more indicator of skill needed - doesn't have to demonstrate anything, sc2earnings and TLPD exists - shouldn't attend in a regular GSL season - not worth it / too much travel, if also attending other foreign tourneys my2cents
On August 13 2012 21:00 niteReloaded wrote: Frankly it should be an embarassment for any foreigner with high aims to not be able to get to Korean GM. It's top 200 people.
Code S is 32 people. Expand that to 50 for Code S caliber players. The rest is 150 of 2nd tier Korean pros.
You do realize that the Korean GM is like 40 people right?
You have a point, but '40' is pushing it imo. But your point would still stand even if it's 50, 60, or 70.
We should be careful with the expectations, because so far, so often when a foreigner went to train to Korea for a while, they sucked at the next foreign event they went to.
If it wasn't for that 'curse', Stephano should be the favorite to win MLG. I hope he does too.
On August 14 2012 01:10 niteReloaded wrote: We should be careful with the expectations, because so far, so often when a foreigner went to train to Korea for a while, they sucked at the next foreign event they went to.
If it wasn't for that 'curse', Stephano should be the favorite to win MLG. I hope he does too.
They sucked hard because when they got to Korea they had to relearn the game because all their timing and such were way off because foreigners ain't on the same level and is just worse. You have to be there a long time to be "complete", like Naniwa, SaSe and MajOr for an example.
The reason Stephano won't have this problem is because he already play it in a right way and doesn't have to relearn, just polish his play. And I also think him being Zerg with reactionary and some what figured out gameplan is a big advantage over T's and P's going over to Korea for a few weeks and get crushed.
It's been translated into Chinese, so I can translate it to English if needed. I just thought that it might be more accurate if someone wanted to translate it straight from Korean.
On August 14 2012 01:10 niteReloaded wrote: We should be careful with the expectations, because so far, so often when a foreigner went to train to Korea for a while, they sucked at the next foreign event they went to.
If it wasn't for that 'curse', Stephano should be the favorite to win MLG. I hope he does too.
They sucked hard because when they got to Korea they had to relearn the game because all their timing and such were way off because foreigners ain't on the same level and is just worse. You have to be there a long time to be "complete", like Naniwa, SaSe and MajOr for an example.
The reason Stephano won't have this problem is because he already play it in a right way and doesn't have to relearn, just polish his play. And I also think him being Zerg with reactionary and some what figured out gameplan is a big advantage over T's and P's going over to Korea for a few weeks and get crushed.
I endorse this post. Also just about every foreigner struggles on the Korean ladder for a while until they adjust. Stephano however never struggled. Stephano had a 70+% win rate in his first run on the KR ladder, which was the second best Zerg win rate that season. This time around he has the second best overall win rate on the ladder (at around 72%), and he appeared to be getting better - yesterday, he won around 9 in a row at one point. Prior to this trip, if Stephano is to be believed, and I tend to believe him, he was not practicing at all because he was on holiday, and in the month prior he barely practiced, although he did play in a several tournaments. Now that he's playing 8 hours a day (every other day at least), there's no way he's not going to get better. With DRG falling on his face recently and Symbol showing shaky multi-tasking in the late game and generally not wowing anyone of late, if Stephano wins MLG, I think it's time to officially crown him the best zerg in the world. As you might guess from my posts, I've already given him that title.
It's been translated into Chinese, so I can translate it to English if needed. I just thought that it might be more accurate if someone wanted to translate it straight from Korean.
On August 14 2012 01:10 niteReloaded wrote: We should be careful with the expectations, because so far, so often when a foreigner went to train to Korea for a while, they sucked at the next foreign event they went to.
If it wasn't for that 'curse', Stephano should be the favorite to win MLG. I hope he does too.
This is really just a terran and toss thing, because they actually need to hit timings(different/more crisp over there) and change up their builds. The Norwegian zerg Snute is on vacation in Korea and got straight in to GM, and is something like rank 60 and top 10 win rates. He has only been there for a very short amount of time, and he keeps climbing every day. This is from playing on an internet cafe while he's on vacation.
God, Stephano has been the TLPD #1 foreign player for I don't know how long now. All the names around him change but one stays constant - Stephano as #1. Really enjoy Stephano's play and wish him the best of luck and swift improvement. Waiting for another tournament win from him soon.
On August 14 2012 01:10 niteReloaded wrote: We should be careful with the expectations, because so far, so often when a foreigner went to train to Korea for a while, they sucked at the next foreign event they went to.
If it wasn't for that 'curse', Stephano should be the favorite to win MLG. I hope he does too.
They sucked hard because when they got to Korea they had to relearn the game because all their timing and such were way off because foreigners ain't on the same level and is just worse. You have to be there a long time to be "complete", like Naniwa, SaSe and MajOr for an example.
The reason Stephano won't have this problem is because he already play it in a right way and doesn't have to relearn, just polish his play. And I also think him being Zerg with reactionary and some what figured out gameplan is a big advantage over T's and P's going over to Korea for a few weeks and get crushed.
I endorse this post. Also just about every foreigner struggles on the Korean ladder for a while until they adjust. Stephano however never struggled. Stephano had a 70+% win rate in his first run on the KR ladder, which was the second best Zerg win rate that season. This time around he has the second best overall win rate on the ladder (at around 72%), and he appeared to be getting better - yesterday, he won around 9 in a row at one point. Prior to this trip, if Stephano is to be believed, and I tend to believe him, he was not practicing at all because he was on holiday, and in the month prior he barely practiced, although he did play in a several tournaments. Now that he's playing 8 hours a day (every other day at least), there's no way he's not going to get better. With DRG falling on his face recently and Symbol showing shaky multi-tasking in the late game and generally not wowing anyone of late, if Stephano wins MLG, I think it's time to officially crown him the best zerg in the world. As you might guess from my posts, I've already given him that title.
I agree. Were talking about someone who has pioneered the meta-game in multiple ways for... Well his entire career really. I wouldn't be so quick to talk down DRG, though.
On August 14 2012 03:19 shizaep wrote: God, Stephano has been the TLPD #1 foreign player for I don't know how long now. All the names around him change but one stays constant - Stephano as #1. Really enjoy Stephano's play and wish him the best of luck and swift improvement. Waiting for another tournament win from him soon.
That post is based on so many assumptions and random guesses. No way that is going to give us an accurate number.
The assumptions come after analyzing the data. Counting names doesn't need any assumption.
That data analyzing is HORRIBLE. You cant come to any reasonable conclusions with almost no evidence. You are trying to find something that isnt there.
That post is based on so many assumptions and random guesses. No way that is going to give us an accurate number.
The assumptions come after analyzing the data. Counting names doesn't need any assumption.
That data analyzing is HORRIBLE. You cant come to any reasonable conclusions with almost no evidence. You are trying to find something that isnt there.
On August 14 2012 01:10 niteReloaded wrote: We should be careful with the expectations, because so far, so often when a foreigner went to train to Korea for a while, they sucked at the next foreign event they went to.
If it wasn't for that 'curse', Stephano should be the favorite to win MLG. I hope he does too.
They sucked hard because when they got to Korea they had to relearn the game because all their timing and such were way off because foreigners ain't on the same level and is just worse. You have to be there a long time to be "complete", like Naniwa, SaSe and MajOr for an example.
The reason Stephano won't have this problem is because he already play it in a right way and doesn't have to relearn, just polish his play. And I also think him being Zerg with reactionary and some what figured out gameplan is a big advantage over T's and P's going over to Korea for a few weeks and get crushed.
I endorse this post. Also just about every foreigner struggles on the Korean ladder for a while until they adjust. Stephano however never struggled. Stephano had a 70+% win rate in his first run on the KR ladder, which was the second best Zerg win rate that season. This time around he has the second best overall win rate on the ladder (at around 72%), and he appeared to be getting better - yesterday, he won around 9 in a row at one point. Prior to this trip, if Stephano is to be believed, and I tend to believe him, he was not practicing at all because he was on holiday, and in the month prior he barely practiced, although he did play in a several tournaments. Now that he's playing 8 hours a day (every other day at least), there's no way he's not going to get better. With DRG falling on his face recently and Symbol showing shaky multi-tasking in the late game and generally not wowing anyone of late, if Stephano wins MLG, I think it's time to officially crown him the best zerg in the world. As you might guess from my posts, I've already given him that title.
I agree. Were talking about someone who has pioneered the meta-game in multiple ways for... Well his entire career really. I wouldn't be so quick to talk down DRG, though.
I think DRG will get back on track but he's still dropped I believe his last 5 bofX series in a row and not looked good doing it. Something keeping him from playing his best -- maybe a girl, maybe his wrists hurt, who knows? The unofficial best zerg in the world crown is up in the air IMO at the moment.
That post is based on so many assumptions and random guesses. No way that is going to give us an accurate number.
The assumptions come after analyzing the data. Counting names doesn't need any assumption.
That data analyzing is HORRIBLE. You cant come to any reasonable conclusions with almost no evidence. You are trying to find something that isnt there.
wow.
I know right, this debate is the true battle of retards lol
On August 13 2012 05:00 Lorch wrote: Seriously we are still hyping him for doing well on kr ladder? Yes it's the hardest ladder in the world, no that does not change the fact that it's only ladder and most top koreans use it primarily to offrace...
Also lol at even comparing the random french guy who talks about quiting pro gaming all the time to someone as great as mondragon.
I really hope he stops laddering so much and actually uses the great practice partners tsl and korea can provide him with, I don't think stephanos weakness is playing random bo1, but rather the mindgames going on in a bo5+ series and especially being able to mix up your builds at the right time.
Lol at a random TL guy bashing Stephano when the likes of Jaedong, MC, MKP and Polt among others praise him on regular basis.
I'm not bashing stephano, I'm stating that what he has achieved isn't nearly as impressive compared to what mondragon has said, especially when he talks about quiting in almost every interview. Besides that, since when is the opinion of pro gamers and indicator for anything, sure stephano is good and it's nice for him, I guess, if pros praise him, but that really doesn't mean much of anything imo.
ahah sure. So when the best of the best say you're the best, it doesn't mean anything.
Mondragon never won any international tournament with koreans. Stephano won like 4 or 5.
Stephano has more achievements than Mondragon.
/closed
The gap between Koreans and foreigners was over 25x what it is in SC2.
In SCBW you'd be lucky if ANY foreigner could take a single game off a an A-caliber (NOT S caliber) level player, even if they played them 10x.
Gap was big because they were much worse. It's as simple as that.
It's really funny to even compare foreign BW to todays SC2 accomplishments, just look at your foreign bw heroes and how they are doing in sc2.
Because they were much worse? What? No, it had nothing to do with that.
I played more BW than I did SC2 relatively speaking, because I was a much bigger gamer in high school than college. Yet I've been able to take games off top Korean players on ladder. I couldn't take a single game off a B+ on ladder in BW if you gave me 50 games.
You can compete at the top (probably lose the majority of the time) with 150 APM in SC2. You can't come remotely close to competing at the top wtih 150 APM in BW because there was simply too much shit to do. You can't macro midbattle by just clicking your hotkeyed building group and slamming down "AAAAAAA" or holding Z. Rather, if you were lucky and got protoss, you could use a positional hotkey (Fkey) to go back to your gateway groups and individually click every single gateway and try if you wanted to individually set each individual rally. Fuck rerallying production facilities was such a bitch for me....
EPT
Millenium_Stephano![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/krC20.jpg)
still will be good experience i guess
I love to see how it goes, let's see how the very short time of practice gets him on the big place of the next MLG 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tQKas.jpg)
