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Agathon
France1505 Posts
On August 01 2012 10:48 NEOtheONE wrote: Honestly, this seems to be one of the more realistic scenarios presented in this thread. Not from my point of view. I follow Millenium TV and Millenium's manager's streams for a very long time, and i'm 99% sure that he wouldn't join Mill even if he pays for it and beg on his knees. The only realistic point is Stephano going to EG. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On August 01 2012 07:45 IPA wrote: I based my initial (and current) opinion on facts actually. Or at least informed conjecture, which is the best we can hope for in the murky world of esports. Naniwa jumps teams; Naniwa often acts like a spoiled child in games (BM, etc.); Naniwa's reasons for leaving are often evasive and vague. For these reasons, I feel like the problem lies in Naniwa's development as a person, and his (lack of) loyalty, rather than any of the plethora of teams he has left. The "often acts like spoiled child in games" / BM is incorrect. Unless by often you mean very rarely. When was the last instance of BM prior to TSL, which he apologized for anyway, that you can remember? The 6 Probe rush? How many can you even remember? The fact that he "jumps" teams in itself isn't enough to point to anything. Again, why wouldn't the problem be with the teams? Because Naniwa is one and the teams and people who manage them are many? I will even agree that Nani's personality is the reason for him switching teams often. But there is a difference between the "reason" and the "problem". I don't think anyone can realistically argue with the facts that Naniwa is ambitious, driven, extremely hard working, and delivers results on the biggest stage possible. All these qualities are a product of his personality, so calling his personality a "problem" is quite a stretch. These qualities SHOULD be more than enough to outweigh a couple of personality quirks that, from what we've seen in public, aren't that severe or even common. What I find interesting is the part that we didn't see in public. Namely, it's interesting that the most common and severe complaint (Dignitas, Complexity) that we've heard about Nani is that he's "difficult". That's it. Difficult. How's that for evasive and vague? For the sheer amount of vindictive bullshit that Odee and Lake repeatedly threw at him several months ago - and his reputation is for the most part a direct consequence of this slander coupled with the Probe rush incident - they sure haven't been very specific on what their problem with him actually was. Ultimately it's everyone's own choice whether they want to believe what some company CEO or a scene personality said or not. However I would mainly like to submit the following point as a potential opinion modifier to consider: Naniwa's qualities as a professional Starcraft player are all public and the evidence for them is there for everyone to see - the hard work, the results, etc. On the other hand, the suggested problems he has are almost exclusively based on hearsay and conjecture (ie "he has switched soooo many teams and people say bad things about him"). If nothing else, I think it's pretty obvious which arguments count as more solid facts. | ||
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BeyondCtrL
Sweden642 Posts
On August 01 2012 16:11 Talin wrote: The "often acts like spoiled child in games" / BM is incorrect. Unless by often you mean very rarely. When was the last instance of BM prior to TSL, which he apologized for anyway, that you can remember? The 6 Probe rush? How many can you even remember? The fact that he "jumps" teams in itself isn't enough to point to anything. Again, why wouldn't the problem be with the teams? Because Naniwa is one and the teams and people who manage them are many? I will even agree that Nani's personality is the reason for him switching teams often. But there is a difference between the "reason" and the "problem". I don't think anyone can realistically argue with the facts that Naniwa is ambitious, driven, extremely hard working, and delivers results on the biggest stage possible. All these qualities are a product of his personality, so calling his personality a "problem" is quite a stretch. These qualities SHOULD be more than enough to outweigh a couple of personality quirks that, from what we've seen in public, aren't that severe or even common. What I find interesting is the part that we didn't see in public. Namely, it's interesting that the most common and severe complaint (Dignitas, Complexity) that we've heard about Nani is that he's "difficult". That's it. Difficult. How's that for evasive and vague? For the sheer amount of vindictive bullshit that Odee and Lake repeatedly threw at him several months ago - and his reputation is for the most part a direct consequence of this slander coupled with the Probe rush incident - they sure haven't been very specific on what their problem with him actually was. Ultimately it's everyone's own choice whether they want to believe what some company CEO or a scene personality said or not. However I would mainly like to submit the following point as a potential opinion modifier to consider: Naniwa's qualities as a professional Starcraft player are all public and the evidence for them is there for everyone to see - the hard work, the results, etc. On the other hand, the suggested problems he has are almost exclusively based on hearsay and conjecture (ie "he has switched soooo many teams and people say bad things about him"). If nothing else, I think it's pretty obvious which arguments count as more solid facts. An excellent summary that has, thankfully, good reasoning. I hope Nani realizes, though he already probably knows, that all these haters just love the drama. I love to watch good players and I watch this sport for entertaining games and the skill it goes into playing it. Nani competes in GSL code S and the fact that people manage to belittle his caliber is just astounding and evidence of "fanboism". When Jinro, IdrA, HuK, and all other foreigners who were in good shape were playing I loved to watch them and I didn't care about their PR. I support Nani and Stephano (pretty much the only consistently good foreigners) as much as I support all the other awesome Korean players; I do it because they give good games that are at the top level of play. The people who care about all this backroom drama are the same type of people who watch "Football Wives". They claim to like sport but really, in the end, they still like the resulting drama behind the scenes more than actually appreciating the games themselves. | ||
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pellejohnson
United States1931 Posts
On August 01 2012 14:11 mongmong wrote: Whenever i see someone defend naniwa and check his nationality, im not too surprised and its exactly why i hate extreme fanboysm. it would be pretty cool to be Naniwa. You can behave like a total dick and theres still people who defend you Same goes for all the haters. Try and be open to other cultures in the future instead of hating all but your own | ||
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dieselnerd
United States42 Posts
On August 01 2012 17:02 BeyondCtrL wrote: An excellent summary that has, thankfully, good reasoning. I hope Nani realizes, though he already probably knows, that all these haters just love the drama. I love to watch good players and I watch this sport for entertaining games and the skill it goes into playing it. Nani competes in GSL code S and the fact that people manage to belittle his caliber is just astounding and evidence of "fanboism". When Jinro, IdrA, HuK, and all other foreigners who were in good shape were playing I loved to watch them and I didn't care about their PR. I support Nani and Stephano (pretty much the only consistently good foreigners) as much as I support all the other awesome Korean players; I do it because they give good games that are at the top level of play. The people who care about all this backroom drama are the same type of people who watch "Football Wives". They claim to like sport but really, in the end, they still like the resulting drama behind the scenes more than actually appreciating the games themselves. Amazing post. Very well said. | ||
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Wayne123
88 Posts
I don´t think he´s BM or a Balance Whiner. To me, he´s a hard working individual doing something he loves and trying to steadily improve. Sure, sometimes he has some moments where you can question his actions.(Like I.E.M. Kiev when he wanted to leave the tournament, the probe rush, his comment vs JohnnyRecco) but these things just happen because there are lot of emotions involved when you compete in huge and important tournaments. I don´t think all this hate/negativity is justified. He´s not a saint by any means but he´s not the only pro gamer who makes comments about balance or rages. I think there people in this community who are much worse then him regarding balance whining and BM.(Lalush, Idra, ...) | ||
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Waterflow
Sweden1550 Posts
On August 01 2012 14:11 mongmong wrote: Whenever i see someone defend naniwa and check his nationality, im not too surprised and its exactly why i hate extreme fanboysm. it would be pretty cool to be Naniwa. You can behave like a total dick and theres still people who defend you You just can't handle the fact that there are people who support him. If anyone's gonna support him you would think it would be people from his own country right? But there's people from alot of other countries than just Sweden who supports him. I for example don't defend him because he is swedish. I defend him because i like him and think people that hate him are just extremely butthurt and sensitive people who needs a reality check. Like for example go outside of the door and smell the fresh air. Sit under a beautiful tree and look at beautiful girls and then after that tell me if you still think it's that important to hate a guy over an internet forum for doing a probe rush, calling someone an idiot and doing celebrations. Narrow minded and hateful people are just sad. Wouldn't surprise me if they watch Glee eihter. I could turn your argument around and say that im not surprised when i hear that all koreans hate naniwa. Wich is not true. Alot of them do but then there's this few people who are a bit more understanding and carry less hate in their hearts. | ||
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ToD
France222 Posts
On July 31 2012 07:16 Eee wrote: TheSlash doesn't give a single fucking shit if MC and NaNi hates each other, he's known for doing these insanly unlogical moves. Would'nt suprise me at all if he recruited Naniwa. ToD had a bad history with Fnatics CS team, they still recruited him. I think they can look past his history with NightEnd. you dont know the first thing about everything you're talking about lol | ||
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Lorch
Germany3710 Posts
On August 01 2012 14:11 mongmong wrote: Whenever i see someone defend naniwa and check his nationality, im not too surprised and its exactly why i hate extreme fanboysm. it would be pretty cool to be Naniwa. You can behave like a total dick and theres still people who defend you Are you serious? The fact that we have to talk about nationality in one of the most global things in existence is a real joke to me. I couldn't care less whether naniwa is swedish, canadien, south african or korean what matters to me is who he is and way more importantly how good he is at starcraft. Yeah naniwa can be a dick and what not, but I'm not a fan of a player because I think he is such a nice guy, I am a fan of a player because I see beauty in his gameplay, and naniwa has been showing that beauty for a very long time now. I really hope he joins a korean team, he doesn't seem to care too much about traveling and values gsl/korea above other competitions anyways, plus I can't think of many foreign teams that I could see him going too that isn't full of players who hate on him (like idra acting like he is in high school and doesn't want the wierd guy to hang out with him....) or he hasn't already been on. Ah well as long as he stays in korea and continues to blow me away I'm fine. | ||
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AssyrianKing
Australia2118 Posts
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Geiko
France2034 Posts
On August 01 2012 18:06 Wayne123 wrote: I don´t understand why so many people hate Naniwa. I don´t think he´s BM or a Balance Whiner. To me, he´s a hard working individual doing something he loves and trying to steadily improve. Sure, sometimes he has some moments where you can question his actions.(Like I.E.M. Kiev when he wanted to leave the tournament, the probe rush, his comment vs JohnnyRecco) but these things just happen because there are lot of emotions involved when you compete in huge and important tournaments. I don´t think all this hate/negativity is justified. He´s not a saint by any means but he´s not the only pro gamer who makes comments about balance or rages. I think there people in this community who are much worse then him regarding balance whining and BM.(Lalush, Idra, ...) I don't like Naniwa, because the first time I heard of him, it was because he was getting kicked out of ESL due to having too many bad mannered points or something like that. From what I understood, he earned those points through minor insults and forfeiting games without letting his opponent know. Then I read up on him and saw that he had a history of insulting people on the internet and basically everyone at the time knew he was a total douche. They had an interview with him where he explained that he had changed and that he was BM due to having a difficult childhood. Later on he became better and kept on switching teams. He also keeps on repeating that only results matter to him and he doesn't give a shit about PR. Then there was the whole probe rush and disrespect to Nestea, and now the TSL BM. I'm not saying he's a bad player but he sure as hell is making it difficult for people to like him. | ||
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Waterflow
Sweden1550 Posts
On August 01 2012 18:22 Geiko wrote: I don't like Naniwa, because the first time I heard of him, it was because he was getting kicked out of ESL due to having too many bad mannered points or something like that. From what I understood, he earned those points through minor insults and forfeiting games without letting his opponent know. Then I read up on him and saw that he had a history of insulting people on the internet and basically everyone at the time knew he was a total douche. They had an interview with him where he explained that he had changed and that he was BM due to having a difficult childhood. Later on he became better and kept on switching teams. He also keeps on repeating that only results matter to him and he doesn't give a shit about PR. Then there was the whole probe rush and disrespect to Nestea, and now the TSL BM. I'm not saying he's a bad player but he sure as hell is making it difficult for people to like him. He's trying to better himself though. Try to change your personality and see if you can do it in one day while getting hated on by a swarm of angry nerds. One thing that is also worth to note is that the more hate a player gets the more love he/she will get from his/her fans. | ||
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
Teams mean very little other then support for the player. In the end sc2 is not a team game. | ||
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
Starcraft 2 needs the publicity/drama. It builds rivalries, attracts sponsors, showmatches etc. | ||
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
Nerds that hurt esports: Herp derp Naniwa BM and changes teams <insert random insult/player comparison and long texts of hate> | ||
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xwoGworwaTsx
United States984 Posts
did he leave or was he released? | ||
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RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
On August 01 2012 18:25 Waterflow wrote: He's trying to better himself though. Try to change your personality and see if you can do it in one day while getting hated on by a swarm of angry nerds. One thing that is also worth to note is that the more hate a player gets the more love he/she will get from his/her fans. I dunno why you think he's trying to change. He hasn't shown any sign of being less belligerent since Warcraft. He's literally had years to change, and the only thing that has is the number of hollow apologies his fans eat up. It's one thing to enjoy his play, I won't fault you for that, but to try and make it seem like he's the nicest guy in the world who is misunderstood by mindless haters is just silly. There's a reason there's constantly drama around him, and to blame everyone else for that is kinda dumb. Another dumb thing is saying that discussion on how his temperament and inability to retain a team for longer than a few months are irrelevant. This isn't his fanclub, where we all jerk off about how much we love him and you can't say a negative thing about him, go there for that; it was designed for it. This is a thread about discussing his leaving, and where he will go, and his past is extremely relevant to that conversation. Trying to stifle the negatives about him is just as detrimental to the discussion as mindless speculation and conjecture. | ||
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On August 01 2012 18:44 xwoGworwaTsx wrote: clanhopper did he leave or was he released? Try reading the OP instead of just making a pointless post. | ||
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AhOhitzXray
United States48 Posts
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Waterflow
Sweden1550 Posts
On August 01 2012 18:49 RockIronrod wrote: I dunno why you think he's trying to change. He hasn't shown any sign of being less belligerent since Warcraft. He's literally had years to change, and the only thing that has is the number of hollow apologies his fans eat up. It's one thing to enjoy his play, I won't fault you for that, but to try and make it seem like he's the nicest guy in the world who is misunderstood by mindless haters is just silly. There's a reason there's constantly drama around him, and to blame everyone else for that is kinda dumb. Another dumb thing is saying that discussion on how his temperament and inability to retain a team for longer than a few months are irrelevant. This isn't his fanclub, where we all jerk off about how much we love him and you can't say a negative thing about him, go there for that; it was designed for it. This is a thread about discussing his leaving, and where he will go, and his past is extremely relevant to that conversation. Trying to stifle the negatives about him is just as detrimental to the discussion as mindless speculation and conjecture. He's trying to change but having a hard time doing so. You can't just expect him to turn into White_Ra all of a sudden. He has his own personality you know and it can be modified a bit but as i said he's having difficulties doing so. I believe he is trying his best. Im not trying to make him seem like the nicest guy in the world because he isn't. Im not saying he's misunderstood by mindless haters i just feel like people could open their minds a little and be a bit more understanding to what it's like to be a human. We are all different. How does hate help? And as Talin says in the post after mine that people are very much exaggerating this out of proportion. People who sit behind their computer screens have a responsibility aswell. It's easy to sit behind a screen and just blindlessly hate someone without having met that person in real life or know anything about that persons past and so on. Why is it so wrong of naniwa to be a bit bm but so okay for massive amounts of people to sit and hate and write crap about him without any sort of thought about how they act themselves? Hypocrites. (Also i have no idea why you said: "Another dumb thing is saying that discussion on how his temperament and inability to retain a team for longer than a few months are irrelevant." I never mentioned anything about that.) | ||
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