EPTAnother thing flawed in your argument is you say the races will just make units that can detect and it will render completely. With that logic, Dt's in SC1 and SC2 should suck, Infestor harass should never ever happen and Spider mines in SC1 were complete shit. All these are incorrect. Infestor harass is quite cost effecient. Dt's almost always do damage the first time they come on the field and spider mines were quite good in SC1.
[D] Widow Mine Fundamentally Flawed - Page 5
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nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
Another thing flawed in your argument is you say the races will just make units that can detect and it will render completely. With that logic, Dt's in SC1 and SC2 should suck, Infestor harass should never ever happen and Spider mines in SC1 were complete shit. All these are incorrect. Infestor harass is quite cost effecient. Dt's almost always do damage the first time they come on the field and spider mines were quite good in SC1. | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
I dont think its designed to be a vulture mine but rather as harrasment out of battles. | ||
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
On July 31 2012 05:10 Advocado wrote: If it blows up when it dies, you die to zealots that charges you lol. It's probably better this way for the terrans. I dont think its designed to be a vulture mine but rather as harrasment out of battles. It doesn't do damage to your units. | ||
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Schmoooopy
United States448 Posts
I guess I'll wait until Beta and see if things change. Just my two cents. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
But to be honest... It's going to be absolutely worthless in ZvT anyways. Since they're currently autocast you can just run zerglings around in front of your army and suck up all of the widow mines anyways... | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On July 31 2012 05:08 nakedsurfer wrote: I don't believe the design of the widow mine is to add into your army composition. It works the way it works because It's meant to be a means to control space. If you are about to get counter attacked, the widow mine would make the counter attack much weaker. It's just like how terrans leave tanks at home when they are about to push out. That way they are safe versus small counter attacks while their army is not at home. Same applies with widow mine just you would put it in the path where the counterattack would happen. Also, zerg and protoss won't have an overseer or observer with their counter attack squad. Another thing flawed in your argument is you say the races will just make units that can detect and it will render completely. With that logic, Dt's in SC1 and SC2 should suck, Infestor harass should never ever happen and Spider mines in SC1 were complete shit. All these are incorrect. Infestor harass is quite cost effecient. Dt's almost always do damage the first time they come on the field and spider mines were quite good in SC1. As the OP explains, this thing is uselss away from your army because if your units get hit by a Mine and there's nothing to distract you, you have plenty of time to make your unit just waltz away from your army and be the only one that dies. | ||
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boomudead1
United States186 Posts
On July 31 2012 03:33 The Final Boss wrote: The fact that any of these threads have been made is sad. Why are we talking about balance regarding a game that is not even out.... u missed the point. the tread isnt about balance. its about design concept of the mine. with doesnt even looks like how blizzard presented atm. | ||
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humanimal
United States151 Posts
EDIT: Just went through some posts and it appears it has been suggested. People are saying that you can just pull the unit out of the ball to avoid splash damage... which is true, Dustin Browder has already said they've accounted for that and expect players to do that. That doesn't make the widow mine any worse, it just means they have to play around with it to make it cost effective assuming it only hits one unit, and punish players who choose not to split (thereby causing the widow mine to be even more effective) | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
Being able to just kill the unit the mine is on (your own) makes it ridiculously easy to deal with. This would also create cool chances for terran to get the mine stuck on something weak, then kill that unit to get a faster explosion. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On July 31 2012 05:16 humanimal wrote: Has anyone bothered considering this as a map control unit? Put it in areas away from your army to slow down the opponent from attacking through another path and give you notification of their army units. All I got from this is that you've only bothered considering using the widow mine in fights. Which I think is pretty short sighted. EDIT: Just went through some posts and it appears it has been suggested. People are saying that you can just pull the unit out of the ball to avoid splash damage... which is true, Dustin Browder has already said they've accounted for that and expect players to do that. That doesn't make the widow mine any worse, it just means they have to play around with it to make it cost effective assuming it only hits one unit, and punish players who choose not to split (thereby causing the widow mine to be even more effective) That doesn't make the Mine effective in any way. There are three scenarios. 1) The Mine is holding down a location away from the Terran's army; the players just draws the one unit away and leaves him to die and continues his harassment/counterattack. Mine is useless. 2) The Mine is backed up by the Terran army. Either the Terran army kills the unit is is attached to or the Terran army runs away and the opponent has time to split the unit that it is attached to. Either way, Mine is useless. 3) The Mine is able to catch a Medivac/Banshee on the way to harass. This is marginally useful, but you have to stick it in a location that it will catch a flying unit, which is incredibly unlikely, especially since most map edges are open space. It's just bad design. End of story. | ||
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sVnteen
Germany2238 Posts
for example imagina a lategame TvP fight Terran has vikings,ghosts MMM and widow mines Protoss has HT's Colossi Sentrys BlinkStalkers Zealots now the widow mines (like 10) attach themselves to some stalkers some Colossi some Zealots and the terran army attacks at the same time how is the protoss ever going to micro 10 different units away from his army while still controlling his colossi stalkers sentrys and HT's? i don't see how this would be more balanced but ok it's an option | ||
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Incomplet
United Kingdom1419 Posts
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
On July 31 2012 05:25 sVnteen wrote: so what you suggest is basically a burrowed baneling for terran that attaches itself to a unit and then moves with the army a couple of seconds before it completely destroys it even if the unit that it originally attacked dies? the only thing you could do then would be splitting the army which is not particularly easy for example imagina a lategame TvP fight Terran has vikings,ghosts MMM and widow mines Protoss has HT's Colossi Sentrys BlinkStalkers Zealots now the widow mines (like 10) attach themselves to some stalkers some Colossi some Zealots and the terran army attacks at the same time how is the protoss ever going to micro 10 different units away from his army while still controlling his colossi stalkers sentrys and HT's? i don't see how this would be more balanced but ok it's an option You're talking about a late-game situation. What was the last time your late-game Protoss army moved out without an Observer? Once you have 1 out Spider Mines are no threat to you. For the same reason you don't see burrowed Banes versus Toss. | ||
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Incomplet
United Kingdom1419 Posts
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sVnteen
Germany2238 Posts
On July 31 2012 05:28 Grapefruit wrote: You're talking about a late-game situation. What was the last time your late-game Protoss army moved out without an Observer? Once you have 1 out Spider Mines are no treat to you. For the same reason you don't see burrowed Banes versus Toss. Hm I'm not sure but even in progames I see cloaked ghosts emp'ing the whole protoss army quite often because there is no observer around. I don't play P or T but still I think it's not that unlikely. Also Observers can be sniped by vikings with scans. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
From my experience, they are very strong if positioned smartly and used in the correct timings (good traits to have in a unit, eh?). When my friend attacked me with lings and roaches, they didn't really come in handy. Later on in the game, when he attacked me with broodlord/ultra/infestor, they were really helpful because one mine can kill a broodlord or several infestors, and make the immobile zerg late game have to move even slower to clear mines. With a good number of vikings (already had to deal with BLs) to snipe the overseers, seeing my friend forced to use fungals to clear mines makes me firmly think that spider mine is a good unit as it stands. | ||
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sVnteen
Germany2238 Posts
On July 31 2012 05:29 Incomplet wrote: Also if the widow mine explodes if the unit dies prematurely, wouldnt that mean the terran could target fire down the target with the widow mine and explode it in the middle of his opponents army before he gets time to react? I'm pretty sure he was suggesting that the countdown continues even when the unit died | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 31 2012 05:26 Incomplet wrote: Can widow mine go into dropship? It can. I seriously hope these threads cease to pop up like every day. People need to stop theory crafting on things that are not even in beta state... And people need to understand that Blizzard's designers are much more competent at introducing new units than most random ladder heros and bonjwa TL theory crafters (like the OP for example). Trust them, they actually know what they're doing. Much more so than you anyway... | ||
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