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If im totally honest, I would like for splash damage in this game to be unbelivably punishing. So a few storms could take a protoss army down to 50% health. And make every race have its own "spider mine". At least this would force much more general micro.
I do agree that the mine is flawed in this way, something I didnt really think about. But I thought it was flawed in the way that pro palyers will always be able to kill the units that have mines. If mines did damage even if the unit was killed, that would force players to split the unit away but you can also kill the unit that has your own mine. And that would pretty much force a retreat. And would you rather have a bigger mech army or a bunch more mines that only kill 1 unit each?
Now as much as I belive not much or anything will change for hots when the beta hits, I think blizzard is far to lazy,
I think people still need to stfu about hots.
The beta doesnt matter, the final release matters and we will have plenty of time during the beta to give blizzard feedback, instead of wasting our time now.
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You need to think more carefully about the nature of the problem you see. You have next to no arguments that the Mine design is fundamentally flawed. All the arguments that you presented point to the fact that you can't find the use for the Mine. However, in a well designed strategy game, the strong and optimal uses of a unit, ability or feature are not and should not be immediately obvious, therefore the fact that you cannot find a good use for them may still point to a good design rather than a bad one.
Never forget that in these matters, a player (any player) always argues from a position of ignorance. And you're not even a player yet - because the game that includes this feature isn't out - so you've really had no chance to put hundreds of hours into it to test your theories.
Consider that for the longest time, community at large found Motherships to be borderline useless. Even Blizzard (Browder I believe) admitted it was mostly a token vanity unit that was never intended or expected to matter much in competitive play. It's been nearly two years until it's actually been used in a way that made many Zerg shed Swarm tears.
No matter how obvious some things may appear to be, it's nigh impossible to read into game design like that. It takes a ton of iterations to identify what really works and has a use, and what doesn't. In fact, for a player to think that way is mostly a sign of tunnel vision and is very detrimental in general. It's of course never bad to think about the game in the way that you do, but any conclusions you make at this point are going to be unreliable and premature, no matter how reasonable and well rounded they might seem.
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On July 31 2012 06:11 entrust wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 06:04 Melvin0000 wrote:
could I just target down my own units with mines on them to not only make the mines completely useless WHOA DUDE. If I could attach mines to my own units, would that be useless? OMG 2 OP - I don't think widow mines are flawed. 10 seconds seems like 2 much for a good player to deal with it, but they can always play with it. I think it is really needed TBH and a really interesting unit. If they take it out I'll be a sad sad panda  peace
You misunderstand
If he is a zerg player, and a widow mine attaches to a roach, he can kill the roach it attaches to and it won't explode. Could be fun in 2v2 though, attach a mine to a DT and run it into mineral line haha.
Widow mines remind me a lot of Terror Drones from Red Alert 2, in looks and functionality, haha.
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Yeah widow mine is a terrible concept, it would have been fun to attach them to my own hellions though ^^ I like the reaper idea somebody suggested.
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On July 31 2012 06:16 Funguuuuu wrote:
DRG said the mines will be very strong, and I trust his opinion more then yours.
This is pretty much what I have heard across the board from all the Korean and foreign pros. The mine itself seems powerful even if it just did 200 damage without the AOE. It trades efficently with most units in the game, requires detection when deployed, is cheap and fast to produce. The AOE iseems like a bonus and it does insane damage. 200 damage is 4 seige tanks shots with a wider AOE.
Although the OP has some minor points, most of what I have heard from people who used the mine is that they are amazing. And I will trust those with hands on experience.
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game's not out. thread invalid
User was warned for this post
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I don't quite understand all the posts about people saying to wait for the Beta. That kind of mentality didn't stop everyone complaining about the Repliciant and the Shredder - and now they're both gone.
How is this any different? We're discussing the issues and the viability of some units in their proposed state.
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On July 31 2012 06:30 Eps wrote:
I don't quite understand all the posts about people saying to wait for the Beta. That kind of mentality didn't stop everyone complaining about the Repliciant and the Shredder - and now they're both gone.
How is this any different? We're discussing the issues and the viability of some units in their proposed state.
Thanks.
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On July 31 2012 06:30 Eps wrote:
I don't quite understand all the posts about people saying to wait for the Beta. That kind of mentality didn't stop everyone complaining about the Repliciant and the Shredder - and now they're both gone.
How is this any different? We're discussing the issues and the viability of some units in their proposed state.
Complaining about the Replicaint and shredder did not get them removed. Blizzard gave reasons for those units being removed and they were not the reasons the community complained about them. The shedder was to easy to all in with, harass mineral lines and was to difficult to balance. The Repliciant made game play less diverse because the other side decided to not build powerful units. The community just happend to predict that those units would suck. But if you look back, we also predicted that every unit would suck.
The discussion is silly because it focuses on a minor part of an untested unit. It is not a flaw with the unit as a whole, but a specific UI decision made by blizzard. If we could use the unit, the thread would make sense. But since we can't, it is mostly just theory crafting with little evidence to back it up.
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This is a retarded post, on the lines of whining why the storm of a HT hurts his own units. Just because a player is too low skill to realize how to storm correctly does not mean the unit is flawed. Now you should stop complaining that you can't 1A this unit with the rest of your death ball and wait until the pro's show you how to use it in a couple of months.
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I think mine is largely fine right now in mechanics, maybe specific numbers need to be tweaked.
As it is right now, it has the possibility of trading EXTREMELY efficiently given the right position. This is largely true in general of the Terran army - with the right position/engagement, it is so efficient and good. Of course, when it's out of position, it's horribly bad.
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On July 31 2012 06:46 aka_star wrote:
This is a retarded post, on the lines of whining why the storm of a HT hurts his own units. Just because a player is too low skill to realize how to storm correctly does not mean the unit is flawed. Now you should stop complaining that you can't 1A this unit with the rest of your death ball and wait until the pro's show you how to use it in a couple of months.
Awesome reading comprehension, champ.
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On July 31 2012 06:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 06:30 Eps wrote:
I don't quite understand all the posts about people saying to wait for the Beta. That kind of mentality didn't stop everyone complaining about the Repliciant and the Shredder - and now they're both gone.
How is this any different? We're discussing the issues and the viability of some units in their proposed state. Complaining about the Replicaint and shredder did not get them removed. Blizzard gave reasons for those units being removed and they were not the reasons the community complained about them. The shedder was to easy to all in with, harass mineral lines and was to difficult to balance. The Repliciant made game play less diverse because the other side decided to not build powerful units. The community just happend to predict that those units would suck. But if you look back, we also predicted that every unit would suck. The discussion is silly because it focuses on a minor part of an untested unit. It is not a flaw with the unit as a whole, but a specific UI decision made by blizzard. If we could use the unit, the thread would make sense. But since we can't, it is mostly just theory crafting with little evidence to back it up.
Exactly this. There is a lot of complaints about the viper, but last time I checked it was still in the beta.
I think everyone just needs to wait for the beta to comment on viability and balance of units. No use coming out with "evidence" of a unit/spell sucking when the game isn't even in beta.
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I had much of these concerns after playing with them at MLG.
But I'll wait until beta where they can be explored more extensively with a wider range of players before I really make any conclusions on them.
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I hate these threads. We don't even have a beta. We don't have so much info. Just stop...
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It's obvious that the OP and many others posting on this thread has not seen high level BW play.
If you watch players such as Flash or Fantasy using spider mines, although there are offensive and defensive/distractive implementation of spider mines.
For defensive/distractive, they will spread spider mines all over the map, which catches enemy units that are moving around the map. When the game becomes an APM war, the enemy will take the blunt of those mines eventually.
For offensive, they have vultures lay mines in the back of the enemy units while the main force moves up.
The same tactic could be used with the SC2 mine, and while it would be much more powerful with 5 or 7 second delay, even with 10 second delay it will surely distract the enemy to a large degree, and you could potentially get 1-2 good explosions if you overwhelm them enough with APM.
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i dont know if someone proposed something like this but dont you think it would work well if this mine was spawned from ravens, u would buy 5 mines for 50 minerals each in the raven and u could put them wherever u want? i think it would be pretty cool and would make the raven played more... but well they want to make "new" units all the time.
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Nothing in the OP can't be fixed in the beta. Also, looking at flashy videos of stuff blowing up doesn't mean that games will ever look like that. It's not a "this is how everything will be used", it's more of "hey guys look at these cool abilities/units making stuff blow up". It's like a sales pitch for HotS, no a simulation of a pro game...
All that time spent making the OP and it's practically worthless.
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I feel that when the numbers are finalized it should be used as space control.
I feels like it should be counter play to: drops, muta harass, dark templar rushes, mid game counter attacks. After 1 year of HOTS i feel they will be invaluable in securing thirds.
Counter play to widow mines should be: seige range units + detect for 100% efficiency and low cost units for trading efficiency (1 ling, 1 zealot, 1 marine), otherwise trades should be even or in terrans favor.
Cost should be comparable so there is another option to planetary, turrets and bunkers.
The only number I'm afraid will be difficult to balance is factory build time cost.
Yes mines have uses, yes mines have counterplay, sounds like a well designed unit to me.
I think terrans pointing out that counterplay does exist
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While you do make great points, and even though Blizzard advertised it as a direct combat unit, I really DO NOT see it being used as such, or at least not in abundance.
Much like borrowed banelings, you set them up in probable movement locations, and let them work alone, doing what damage they can.
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EPT
