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On July 31 2012 05:11 Schmoooopy wrote:
This is an interesting discussion, I think. I wish they just gave us spider mines, but Blizzard is trying so hard to make their game different from BW that they're hurting their newer game in the process. I get the idea behind trying to differentiate between the games and making them separate entities, not making a BW2, etc. but what they're doing here is TRYING to create another spider mine while also not giving us it at the same time, thus creating some twisted step-child of the spider mine that doesn't fulfill its role.
I guess I'll wait until Beta and see if things change. Just my two cents.
I think the reason they aren't adding spider mines is simply because they would be overpowered with how units ball up in SC2. Just like how lurkers didn't end up working out in the new engine, some things just can't be copy-pasted from BW into this different game.
The widow mine can be a great strategic unit if they manage to find a balance for it.
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On July 31 2012 03:16 Grapefruit wrote:
To all the people that keep saying that it is not intended as a direct combat unit:
If it is not intended like that they shouldn't promote it like that. This is totally misleading.
How should they promote it then?
Have a 20 minute lecture on how it can help defend 2 base all-ins and protect meching player base when he moves out?
This is a promotional teaser video.
Gameplay footage is limited to 10 seconds snippets by law.
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On July 31 2012 05:43 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 05:11 Schmoooopy wrote:
This is an interesting discussion, I think. I wish they just gave us spider mines, but Blizzard is trying so hard to make their game different from BW that they're hurting their newer game in the process. I get the idea behind trying to differentiate between the games and making them separate entities, not making a BW2, etc. but what they're doing here is TRYING to create another spider mine while also not giving us it at the same time, thus creating some twisted step-child of the spider mine that doesn't fulfill its role.
I guess I'll wait until Beta and see if things change. Just my two cents. I think the reason they aren't adding spider mines is simply because they would be overpowered with how units ball up in SC2. Just like how lurkers didn't end up working out in the new engine, some things just can't be copy-pasted from BW into this different game. The widow mine can be a great strategic unit if they manage to find a balance for it.
This argument is total bunk.
Spider mines and lurkers were imba in BW. If they're too imba in SC2 the stats can be tweaked. That's kind of assumed, so noone ever has to bring up this non-point again. But Browder's afraid of AoE imba units (of course he's fine with non-AoE imba).
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On July 31 2012 05:47 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 03:16 Grapefruit wrote:
To all the people that keep saying that it is not intended as a direct combat unit:
If it is not intended like that they shouldn't promote it like that. This is totally misleading.
How should they promote it then? Have a 20 minute lecture on how it can help defend 2 base all-ins and protect meching player base when he moves out? This is a promotional teaser video. Gameplay footage is limited to 10 seconds snippets by law.
3 seconds of it attaching to a Warp Prism, which explodes, another 3 seconds of a Ling/Bling run-by that gets shut down and 4 seconds showing how it delays an army from attacking.
Made that up while writing, alone, by myself. Blizzard has hundreds with employees with months of time.
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I guess it's fun to argue but any thread that gets this specific about HOTS units is utterly pointless since we haven't tested the units in their beta form yet. I honestly have no idea why these threads aren't closed.
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Nice write up, but you convinced me of the opposite. It looks like one of the most interesting addtions to HoTS now. It's not spider mines, they're much more complex and they look like they will continually be used in new and interesting ways.
Really excited to see the widow mine in action now.
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The same could be said about BW mines, and you'd be surprised at how many times armies just melt because of them even in the pro level.
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On July 31 2012 05:56 Kergy wrote:
The same could be said about BW mines, and you'd be surprised at how many times armies just melt because of them even in the pro level.
BW mines didn't had a 10 second delay as far as I know.
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On July 31 2012 03:47 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 03:43 VPFaith wrote:
Can any Teamliquid admin close this thread? Using words like "FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED" is totally unjustified especially when Heart of the Swarm is not even out yet. Thank you admin. His belief is that the unit is fundamentally flawed, and then he stated his reasoning behind that statement. The purpose of said statement and reasoning is to increase awareness of a situation that currently exists. If when the beta out they've changed/removed the mine such that this situation no longer exists, discussion of said situation will be moot and we'll move on to what's valid then. Until that happens though, the situation is worth considering. Why shouldn't we discuss widow mines before beta is out? Let's say in beta the mine is exactly as it is now, why should op have to wait until then to post this thread?
Then make a blog out of it. It's still his personal opinions and observations about something about a game that is not even released yet. It's hard to have a discussion about something in a game that is released, having one about a game that has yet to be formally released in any form to the public should not have threads regarding it's balance.
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Really good thread. I was planning on making a similar one myself. At anaheim this happened quite often, as well as in the custom map (which mirrors the beta closely).
A lot of times when mines jump onto units mid-fight they don't see use because your units kill the opponent's and the mines end up a waste.
The thing is I think blizzard is intending the widow mine to be like this so that you simply don't make lots of mines with your deathball. To me right now it seems the widow mine is solely for map control and a factory based anti-void ray/muta option so that to "go mech" a Terran does not necessarily have to invest into an ebay+turrets+starport+armory+thors to be safe against air options.
A lot of times in the current wings of liberty metagame lots of openings simply make mech unviable in TvP. Void ray openings in particular that skew Terran so you're forced to make a thor/armory/starport...the widow mine allows you to not have to invest into those meaning you can make more factories while still not dying to the air so then you can "go mech."
I personally think the spider mine is always going to be stronger than a widow mine because blizzard wants to keep the game good for "casuals" too (which is always a mistake).
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On July 31 2012 05:52 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 05:47 pmp10 wrote:On July 31 2012 03:16 Grapefruit wrote:
To all the people that keep saying that it is not intended as a direct combat unit:
If it is not intended like that they shouldn't promote it like that. This is totally misleading.
How should they promote it then? Have a 20 minute lecture on how it can help defend 2 base all-ins and protect meching player base when he moves out? This is a promotional teaser video. Gameplay footage is limited to 10 seconds snippets by law. 3 seconds of it attaching to a Warp Prism, which explodes, another 3 seconds of a Ling/Bling run-by that gets shut down and 4 seconds showing how it delays an army from attacking. Made that up while writing, alone, by myself. Blizzard has hundreds with employees with months of time.
None of which would look exciting to casual observer.
A mine goes boom and lots of stuff dies - you aim at lowest common denominator.
And yes - Blizzard promotional department knows their audience best.
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How does friendly fire work with these? could I just target down my own units with mines on them to not only make the mines completely useless but also make it easier on myself(would be much easier to just kill a unit than to move it out of the group)?
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It always struck me that the mines would end up being used more like quasi-static defence rather than as part of an army (to me, the videos implied the latter). You'd deploy them ahead of your lines so that the opponent has taken their damage by the time the army gets to you. Or maybe behind your mineral line to help deal with drops as you push out with your army.
But until we see it in action in the hands of the pros it's difficult to say anything about the effectiveness of its design.
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On July 31 2012 04:11 Enki wrote:
Until the HotS beta is released and we can get our hands on it, any discussion pertaining to balance is kinda pointless....
It isn't a balance discussion, it's a design discussion. If you aren't capable of reading/understanding the discussion why post at all? The obligatory "wait til beta" gets pretty ridiculous, as it's slapped onto every hots thread multilaterally regardless of context, perspective or content. No attempt is made to actually analyze the content of the post. To their credit a lot of balance/design posts aren't worth analyzing, but then why post at all?
On July 31 2012 06:04 Melvin0000 wrote:
How does friendly fire work with these? could I just target down my own units with mines on them to not only make the mines completely useless but also make it easier on myself(would be much easier to just kill a unit than to move it out of the group)?
You realize how much dps you lose doing that, right? Not only is your entire army shooting itself, which is one less attack on the enemy (which means HE gets one more attack vs YOU PER UNIT YOU KILL), you also lose wasted dps by prematurely killing a unit that will detonate when you'd save that much more DPS spending the time moving it out.
If you want to get facerolled though, proceed.
I wonder if phoenixes picking up mined units will be like banelings where they'll still explode and deal splash damage to the units below.
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Having played around on the HOTS Mod that is up right now, Widow Mines are extremely Powerful I would say op they are very cheap you can make 2 at a time and they move very quickly. Now if your using them in your main fight well then your just not that bright. You position them around the map you can pop out 10 widow mines and put them at every choke, So now every race after widow timing will have to send obs/overseer/scans before they move out of their base.
Here is the kicker for protoss and Zerg The widow mine can attach itself to the Overseer or Observer if you scan right when it passes over, It's only flaw is that it's really damn strong and can give the Terran time to build up that Expensive Mech army and give them the opportunity to get to production to match that of the other races through Mech.
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On July 31 2012 06:04 Melvin0000 wrote:
could I just target down my own units with mines on them to not only make the mines completely useless
WHOA DUDE. If I could attach mines to my own units, would that be useless? OMG
2 OP - I don't think widow mines are flawed. 10 seconds seems like 2 much for a good player to deal with it, but they can always play with it. I think it is really needed TBH and a really interesting unit. If they take it out I'll be a sad sad panda 
peace
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On July 31 2012 06:04 Melvin0000 wrote:
could I just target down my own units with mines on them to not only make the mines completely useless
WHOA DUDE. If I could attach mines to my own units, would that be useless? OMG
2 OP - I don't think widow mines are flawed. 10 seconds seems like 2 much for a good player to deal with, but they can always play with it. I think it is really needed TBH and a really interesting unit. If they take it out I'll be a sad sad panda
peace
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They should just weaken it and get rid of the timer altogether. The timer mechanic is the source of the problem, which is forcing Terran to not shoot at certain units.
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I was playing TvZ on the HotS custom map. My opponent made broodlord/corruptor, amoved across the map without an overseer. Widow mines annihilated the whole army.
Thats what you get for amoving. I love the widow mines!!!
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DRG said the mines will be very strong, and I trust his opinion more then yours.
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EPT
