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On July 31 2012 06:30 Eps wrote:
I don't quite understand all the posts about people saying to wait for the Beta. That kind of mentality didn't stop everyone complaining about the Repliciant and the Shredder - and now they're both gone.
How is this any different? We're discussing the issues and the viability of some units in their proposed state.
You realize that Blizzard does their own internal testing (as shocking as that might seem) and that's why they removed those units.
I definitely agree that I think it's a bit silly to be discussing balance of new units when we haven't seen how they play out yet. Only Blizzard can really see that and they'll address whatever issues they find in their internal testing and address further issues once beta is out.
Let's wait until beta before we start QQ'ing about these units.
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I'm not going to discuss balance yet but I'm really bothered to see a mine that hits ground and air. It seems really strange to me. There's nothing wrong in copying BW's spider mines.
And the warhound is ugly...
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On July 31 2012 08:07 Warpish wrote:
I'm not going to discuss balance yet but I'm really bothered to see a mine that hits ground and air. It seems really strange to me. There's nothing wrong in copying BW's spider mines.
And the warhound is ugly...
Well I would say it's just as strange that fungal growth hits air. That said, I don't like either of them.
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On July 31 2012 08:07 Warpish wrote:
I'm not going to discuss balance yet but I'm really bothered to see a mine that hits ground and air. It seems really strange to me. There's nothing wrong in copying BW's spider mines.
And the warhound is ugly...
These mines are very different from BW's spider mines. I suggest you look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Spider_Mine .
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The mines are not meant for fighting....right? They're just a way of gaining map control and taking supply away from the deathball like the oracle etc, or so I recall from interviews.
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They didnt promote it as a direct combat unit. There will be adjustments.
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Your argument was very sound that the mine was pretty terrible. Contrary to your argument and the video however, Browder has talked many times about the design idea and how they are trying to pull units away from the deathball and not add to them. In this context, they may function a bit better. On the other side of the debate, I completely agree with the idea of Terran having a useless unit. The hydra hasn't been viable since beta and the HOTS speed upgrade at the hive is pointless. How about we also add an upgrade for the mine to the Fusion Reactor for 250/250 that reduces the timer of the mine to 9 instead of 10? It'll totally be awesome then.
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I thnk its fundamentally flawed. What stops a terran from going gas first reactor then constantly ralleying mines over to early game zerg's base...
Just one idea I had feel free to bash.
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On July 31 2012 09:41 Radament wrote:
I thnk its fundamentally flawed. What stops a terran from going gas first reactor then constantly ralleying mines over to early game zerg's base...
Just one idea I had feel free to bash.
The Zerg could just put down a Spine Crawler or attack the mines before they burrow. And if the mine attaches itself to a Drone or Zergling, then it's automatically a cost-ineffective trade considering that the mine is 75 minerals, 25 gas wasting itself on a 50 mineral unit, assuming that the Zerg micros so that there is no splash damage done.
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On July 31 2012 03:37 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 03:36 sGs.Kal_rA wrote:Everything in HOTS is fundamentally flawed. With the new units everything from HOTS will be flawed too. Thats why theres a beta. Wait for it, play games, give feedback, wait for blizzard to patch, repeat from play games. No point talking about anything till then  I think the issue is that most units from HotS seem sort of overpowered right now (intentionally, since Blizzard wants people to use them), whereas Widow Mine kind of seems bad. edit: and yes it is valid to say "the beta isn't out yet, wait a while," but the problem here is readily apparent even without actual gameplay testing (which we technically sort of have with HotS customs), and if Blizzard sees that and realizes that they're screwing up, they'll know it's something to consider tweaking
my thoughts exactly. At first glance i thought this mine would be good, but playing it in the HOTS custom i find this unit is actually really terrible . I mean sure they are really good at defending your base against air raids. But thats all.. Maybe that blizzard intention? to not build turrets anymore but widow mines?
i dunno .. I find its better we let blizzard know that we think the unit is garbage, than to wait for the beta to come out to then say it is crap. If we wait for the actual beta to come out, they are more likely to just cut it from the game if it cant work because when blizzard announces the beta, they have a time period they expect the beta to last for and a shipping period right after which leaves them no time to actually figure out something new for terran. And I say this to blizzard now. If all i am getting for the expansion is a battle hellion and an a-move warhound to play around with .. Screw terran. Im switching to protoss or zerg. I expect the race playing percentages to be heavily messed up if terran gets the short end of the stick this expansion. They are already the least played race outside of Bronze league.
My fix to the mine would be a "dash ability" in addition to the "always will do damage if it attaches to a unit". The timer could still be shown to indicate what level of damage was dealt. Friendly fire could probably be removed as well. Imagine a bunch of zealots or zerglings charging into your army and picking up these mines. Seems way to luck based and potentially dangerous to your own army to really want to use these guys outside base defense against air units.
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On July 31 2012 09:17 Flamingo777 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 08:07 Warpish wrote:
I'm not going to discuss balance yet but I'm really bothered to see a mine that hits ground and air. It seems really strange to me. There's nothing wrong in copying BW's spider mines.
And the warhound is ugly... These mines are very different from BW's spider mines. I suggest you look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Spider_Mine .
Yes, I realize that. That's why I said that IMO "there's nothing wrong in copying BW's spider mines", instead of adopting these widow mines that attack both air and ground. (and all the other differences of course)
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On July 31 2012 05:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 05:08 nakedsurfer wrote:
I don't believe the design of the widow mine is to add into your army composition. It works the way it works because It's meant to be a means to control space. If you are about to get counter attacked, the widow mine would make the counter attack much weaker. It's just like how terrans leave tanks at home when they are about to push out. That way they are safe versus small counter attacks while their army is not at home. Same applies with widow mine just you would put it in the path where the counterattack would happen. Also, zerg and protoss won't have an overseer or observer with their counter attack squad.
Another thing flawed in your argument is you say the races will just make units that can detect and it will render completely. With that logic, Dt's in SC1 and SC2 should suck, Infestor harass should never ever happen and Spider mines in SC1 were complete shit. All these are incorrect. Infestor harass is quite cost effecient. Dt's almost always do damage the first time they come on the field and spider mines were quite good in SC1. As the OP explains, this thing is uselss away from your army because if your units get hit by a Mine and there's nothing to distract you, you have plenty of time to make your unit just waltz away from your army and be the only one that dies.
There shouldnt be a warning when a mine goes onto your unit. So if someone counter attacks because they're getting attack, they won't be focusing on the counter attacking group, they'll be focusing on their main army so they don't lose it with bad positioning. The terran should be focusing on their main army as well since they know they had mines there.
You can't say the widow mine will be completely useless because you can just micro 1 unit away. It's like saying the spider mine in SC1 was useless because you could kill it before it detonated.
Your argument doesn't make sense. People keep jumping to conclusions without even seeing the fucking game. It's quite pathetic and to think these thread keep fucking popping up in our community is sickening. They give no credibility to Blizzard and think everything will be shit. If you think they did such a bad job on SC2 then fuck off and stop playing the game. Holy shit people are retarded. People aren't making these threads for "the better for the game and Esports" they're just bitching about nothing they actually know about since nothing is set in stone yet.
Hoy Fuck!
/rant complete
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Safe to say that the point of the trailer, like any trailer for any game unveiling new units, weapons, maps etc. isn't to try to tell you, "This is the only way to use this thing that we made" or anything like that. Their just trying to show exactly what the unit does in as simple way possible ie. an enemy steps on your mine, a timer begins, and then the mine blows up when the timer goes off. Sure if they wanted to they could try to slap together a 5 minute trailer for every new unit explaining in detail how the spider mine can be used to defend bases, harras, control and scout parts of the map etc. but that wasn't the point of the trailer your analyzing. The point was just give give short and simple explanations of what the units do, nothing more nothing less.
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it felt weak when I tried using it on custom map, and extremely awkward to use as well, including during battles and in between productions hellions and spider mines. Maybe I'm just not used to it
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would it hurt that much to bring back vultures + spider mines and take out battle hellion?
edit: what i meant was, replace battle hellion + widow mine for vulture + spider mine upgrade
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another one of these 'the game isnt out or even in beta, lets bitch' thread. Can we please start closing these threads?
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On July 31 2012 11:38 stew_ wrote:
would it hurt that much to bring back vultures + spider mines and take out battle hellion?
edit: what i meant was, replace battle hellion + widow mine for vulture + spider mine upgrade
It would be good for the game in the long term but Blizzard is too proud of their shitty new units.
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The beta hasn't been released. I seem to remember D. Browder even said that they are looking at the widow mine closely and thinking that it will have to change.
Wait for the beta it should be here in 2-3 months.
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On July 31 2012 11:45 Zombo Joe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 11:38 stew_ wrote:
would it hurt that much to bring back vultures + spider mines and take out battle hellion?
edit: what i meant was, replace battle hellion + widow mine for vulture + spider mine upgrade It would be good for the game in the long term but Blizzard is too proud of their shitty new units.
I'm not buying sc2 hots for the same fucking units I used for 10 years in sc1. Do I agree that these units are super duper awesome and amazing? No. But I'm tired of people asking for the same fucking thing that they've been using for 10 years because they don't want to let go.
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Unless it's cloaked/air unit harass, I don't see a reason why I would ever risk money on these mines when I could just have more units that have a 100% chance to do damage.
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EPT
