EPTIf you use widow mines like spider mines and you use it as a buffer for defense its essentially useless because the units all die before the mines explode and the mines may as well have not been there at all because the outcome is the same. This means a-move syndrome will continue to exist, and the mine won't actually change the game for the better.
[D] Widow Mine Fundamentally Flawed - Page 9
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
If you use widow mines like spider mines and you use it as a buffer for defense its essentially useless because the units all die before the mines explode and the mines may as well have not been there at all because the outcome is the same. This means a-move syndrome will continue to exist, and the mine won't actually change the game for the better. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On July 31 2012 10:56 nakedsurfer wrote: There shouldnt be a warning when a mine goes onto your unit. So if someone counter attacks because they're getting attack, they won't be focusing on the counter attacking group, they'll be focusing on their main army so they don't lose it with bad positioning. The terran should be focusing on their main army as well since they know they had mines there. You can't say the widow mine will be completely useless because you can just micro 1 unit away. It's like saying the spider mine in SC1 was useless because you could kill it before it detonated. Your argument doesn't make sense. People keep jumping to conclusions without even seeing the fucking game. It's quite pathetic and to think these thread keep fucking popping up in our community is sickening. They give no credibility to Blizzard and think everything will be shit. If you think they did such a bad job on SC2 then fuck off and stop playing the game. Holy shit people are retarded. People aren't making these threads for "the better for the game and Esports" they're just bitching about nothing they actually know about since nothing is set in stone yet. Hoy Fuck! /rant complete Well 1. The OPs argument does not need to be tested, it is perfectly theoretically sound. 2. It got tested in the unit tester anyway 3. Spidermine defusal is really really hard. You have about 1 second to defuse and your goons take almost just as long to shoot, you have select 2 goons and click on a tiny white dot as soon as it appears or blue goo goes everywhere. Mass spider mine defusal is physically impossible (in the sense of mass mines lifting up and attacking your army at the same time). This is not the case with the widowmine, you have 10 seconds and you know exactly which units to split up, even if a huge chunk of your army got caught, its still a pretty trivial matter to split them up because you have 10 fucking seconds. 4. OP's real argument is that the widow mine is needed to be used for defense. In that regard the widowmine is useless, because the zealots that are charging in front will pick up the mines and then immediately die before the mine gets detonated, thus making the mines a useless waste of money. On July 31 2012 09:22 Jojo131 wrote: The mines are not meant for fighting....right? They're just a way of gaining map control and taking supply away from the deathball like the oracle etc, or so I recall from interviews. That's what Blizzard is looking to achieve. Only problem is the widow mine doesn't actually achieve it. If the widowmine takes up supply and costs a lot of money for no damage, you may aswell have just built a bunker or PF and a bunch of marines that you can actually attack with. If you put widow mines around your bases, your units will kill the enemy units before the mines detonate, making them a waste of money. If you put mines around the map, that is essentially wasted supply and money that you could be using for actually attacking the enemy. Spidermines were a lot more functional, did a lot more damage, and were essentially free. Even then people consider PvT slightly P favored in both games. Given that if you gave 3 free [0 supply] widow mines to the hellion that blew up in 1 second, could still be balanced, I think the widow mine falls far short of its actual potential. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
Not many units in SC2 do more damage when microed. So maybe it will be a good addition. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On July 31 2012 12:17 Sinensis wrote: This boils down to the widow mine being fundamentally flawed because it might trade inefficiently if not microed at all? Not many units in SC2 do more damage when microed. So maybe it will be a good addition. No, it boils down to the widow mine being absolutely useless for defense. | ||
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SKDN
Sweden243 Posts
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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
On July 31 2012 12:21 sluggaslamoo wrote: No, it boils down to the widow mine being absolutely useless for defense. You forgot the word offense too. | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
I can just imagine it though; TvP, using widow mines on stalkers, the protoss actually blinking targeted stalkers forward to ensure they are the first to die! | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
On July 31 2012 12:17 Sinensis wrote: This boils down to the widow mine being fundamentally flawed because it might trade inefficiently if not microed at all? Not many units in SC2 do more damage when microed. So maybe it will be a good addition. Trying to micro all your units to not accidentally shoot certain units is basically impossible, unless you inefficiently target fire one unit at a time with your whole army and then lose every fight you engage in. Plus there's already enough things that need tons of micro. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
On July 31 2012 12:21 sluggaslamoo wrote: No, it boils down to the widow mine being absolutely useless for defense. I'm not sure if I trust you. You did say earlier that hellions could have 3 free widow mine uses and that it might be balanced. On July 31 2012 12:28 SolidMoose wrote: Trying to micro all your units to not accidentally shoot certain units is basically impossible, unless you inefficiently target fire one unit at a time with your whole army and then lose every fight you engage in. Plus there's already enough things that need tons of micro. Mines are a static defense they sit in one place. One does not use static units to offensively engage a mobile army. The OP thinks that mines are useless because they will all get wasted on the opponent's buffer units E.G. zealots? Maybe just don't unburrow them on the zealots. Wait till the zealots run over top them. If they have an OBS? Move your mine somewhere else or protect them with hellions. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
Well I guess there's a case for that too. I'd at least expect a mine to be able to defend a base, but now that I look at it, a widow mine can never ever assist in defending your base. For example, I expected to be able to put a bunch of mines in a choke so I could expand behind it. Essentially Protoss could run a huge army in and I would have to defend with marines, my marines would kill all the chargelots carrying the mines meaning the mines do nothing and Protoss continues to run in and kill my base. With that wasted money I could have simply built more units, or just put a PF in the choke instead which would have actually helped to defend my base, instead of doing nothing. On July 31 2012 12:29 Sinensis wrote: I'm not sure if I trust you. You did say earlier that hellions could have 3 free widow mine uses and that it might be balanced. I was harping back to the spidermine. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On July 31 2012 12:29 Sinensis wrote: I'm not sure if I trust you. You did say earlier that hellions could have 3 free widow mine uses and that it might be balanced. Mines are a static defense they sit in one place. One does not use static units to offensively engage a mobile army. The OP thinks that mines are useless because they will all get wasted on the opponent's buffer units E.G. zealots? Maybe just don't unburrow them on the zealots. Wait till the zealots run over top them. If they have an OBS? Move your mine somewhere else or protect them with hellions. I was not aware that you could pick and choose when the mines unburrowed, also having units to "protect" the mines when you could just have even more units protecting that location rather than mines is an arbituary point. | ||
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Trasko
Sweden983 Posts
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
On July 31 2012 12:49 Caihead wrote: I was not aware that you could pick and choose when the mines unburrowed, also having units to "protect" the mines when you could just have even more units protecting that location rather than mines is an arbituary point. In the HOTS unit teaser in the OP, zealots run over top the widow mine without triggering it. The terran waits to attach the mine onto the collosus and stalker mass. | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Gonna be a waste of time debating if Blizz decide to change the unit xD Possible solutions: 1. Ability to stop micro mines from latching on to units 2. Allow manually targeting mines not already locked onto a target (coupled with stop micro) 3. Shorter widow mine count down to explosion 4. When unit with mine dies, mine explodes for 33%/50%/66%/whatever damage (or % of time left inverse with % of damage, like OP says) 5. Ability to manually detonate mines for x% damage like #4 | ||
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BretZ
United States1510 Posts
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SirKibbleX
United States479 Posts
They really should have just made Brood War: Source or something like that instead of trying to keep 'fixing' SC2 to live up to its predecessor. | ||
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6NR
United States1472 Posts
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
For one, we haven't actually seen the release version of this unit in action. Any number of things could change... and that should speak for itself. Imagine the mechanics will remain the same, but the numbers will be tweaked to achieve balance. This shouldn't be impossible to believe. For two, it's a unit that GUARANTEES that the thing it hits will be dead in 10 seconds 100% of the time (barring what, ultralisks?) and FORCES your opponent to move across the map more cautiously. It's easy to say it is useless defensively, but realistically it can't be impossible to believe that one or a pair of mines will heavily impede a counterattack or flock of mutas or an unfortunate blink of blink stalkers... Obviously you wouldn't just blindly spider mine up your own base without scouting, but Widow mines should serve as a functional response to certain mobility plays among less other less situational uses, so someone declaring that they're "useless defensively" just sounds silly. This thread comes across as complaining that they aren't useful in every situation, and therefore are useless. I find it hard to agree. also, wouldn't zerg be relying on zergling suicides or detection + queens/hydras to actually clear mines? I don't imagine roaches could shoot the mines without getting latched on to... in fact, I'm not even sure queens or unupgraded hydras could. At least in the HOTS maps, they seem to latch on from quite some range. | ||
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