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On July 31 2012 16:17 a176 wrote:
spider mines were only 'op' in certain parts of a game - early game where detection is limited, and when terran is ahead in production where vultures can be mass produced and you can simply "out mine" your opponent. otherwise the spider mine just became another layer of defense at terran's disposal, but not the primary layer, because they are so easily destroyed.
yet now blizzard wants to attach a resource and supply cost to the unit? they really expect players to sacrifice [significant] resources, production time, and most importantly, supply, to mine up a map?
OP has a good point. terrible game design as it stands now. and it relates to many other threads where blizzard is trying to make SC2 the "BW that is not BW" and only end up hurting their game design.
i dont see why they cant just give the spider mine back to the hellion so it could deal with these unit balls rather than giving it a dumb OP transformation mode; it allows players to be far more creative and strategic with the use of hellions.
Because as Browder said:
They don´t want spidermines back because it would make tank lines to powerfull
EDIT: Oh sry it was David Kim actually, my bad.
link
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On July 31 2012 23:48 Nachtwind wrote:
Because as Browder said:
They don´t want spidermines back because it would make tank lines to powerfull
And having a too powerful colossus/ht/chargelot deathball is just fine?
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have you seen how the game keeps changing between demos? people need to stop analyzing it in such depth because its going to be completely different next time.
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On July 31 2012 16:17 a176 wrote:
yet now blizzard wants to attach a resource and supply cost to the unit? they really expect players to sacrifice [significant] resources, production time, and most importantly, supply, to mine up a map?
If you would use Widow Mines to "mine up a map" and never touch them again you'd deserve to waste supply and ressources.
Widow Mines are entirely different from Spider Mines and they are much stronger because you can manually walk them in or unburrow them in case of danger. Also they don't have a delay until they attach, you can't dodge them once you get in range of them. Spider mines could even be countered if you had no detection at all, and rightfully so because they were really cheap and easy to get.
So Widow Mines should be a lot more costly. Whether or not they are bad design, I don't know and I don't want to judge that until I played with them.
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I think putting them in a medivac or two and dropping them near high-value targets seems most optimal; the AoE seems to be just a bonus to punish players for having very poor unit control/micro/attention to their armies, it very much forces the player to look at their armies more when engaging, even if they have a massive army advantage, if 1-2 of those mines actually deals full damage in AoE, that advantage disappears.
My real question is; what the hell is going on with the mothership?
It seems like they've hung, drawn and quartered it and given various spells to other units just to create the illusion of creativity...
Oracle gets mothership mass-cloak.
Mothership core (original...) gets recall and can become a planetary fortress.
Mothership itself is now for what exactly? Vortex? Because vortex is OP right?
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On August 01 2012 00:10 InoyouS2 wrote:
I think putting them in a medivac or two and dropping them near high-value targets seems most optimal; the AoE seems to be just a bonus to punish players for having very poor unit control/micro/attention to their armies, it very much forces the player to look at their armies more when engaging, even if they have a massive army advantage, if 1-2 of those mines actually deals full damage in AoE, that advantage disappears.
My real question is; what the hell is going on with the mothership?
It seems like they've hung, drawn and quartered it and given various spells to other units just to create the illusion of creativity...
Oracle gets mothership mass-cloak.
Mothership core (original...) gets recall and can become a planetary fortress.
Mothership itself is now for what exactly? Vortex? Because vortex is OP right?
At the current state that's exactly what the mothership is for either way. If it didn't have vortex it wouldn't be used ever. Vortex is what gives protoss a slight chance to beat a maxed out zerg on BL infestor
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On August 01 2012 00:31 Darneck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 00:10 InoyouS2 wrote:
I think putting them in a medivac or two and dropping them near high-value targets seems most optimal; the AoE seems to be just a bonus to punish players for having very poor unit control/micro/attention to their armies, it very much forces the player to look at their armies more when engaging, even if they have a massive army advantage, if 1-2 of those mines actually deals full damage in AoE, that advantage disappears.
My real question is; what the hell is going on with the mothership?
It seems like they've hung, drawn and quartered it and given various spells to other units just to create the illusion of creativity...
Oracle gets mothership mass-cloak.
Mothership core (original...) gets recall and can become a planetary fortress.
Mothership itself is now for what exactly? Vortex? Because vortex is OP right? At the current state that's exactly what the mothership is for either way. If it didn't have vortex it wouldn't be used ever. Vortex is what gives protoss a slight chance to beat a maxed out zerg on BL infestor
And since they plan to remove vortexs affect on air units, or atleast they did, I think motherships will become for the rare PvP, with tempests aiming to neuter the broodlord infestorball which I have not yet gotten tired of seeing.
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Let me get this straight.
Is Blizzard removing WM?
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On August 01 2012 00:06 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 16:17 a176 wrote:
yet now blizzard wants to attach a resource and supply cost to the unit? they really expect players to sacrifice [significant] resources, production time, and most importantly, supply, to mine up a map? If you would use Widow Mines to "mine up a map" and never touch them again you'd deserve to waste supply and ressources. Widow Mines are entirely different from Spider Mines and they are much stronger because you can manually walk them in or unburrow them in case of danger. Also they don't have a delay until they attach, you can't dodge them once you get in range of them. Spider mines could even be countered if you had no detection at all, and rightfully so because they were really cheap and easy to get. So Widow Mines should be a lot more costly. Whether or not they are bad design, I don't know and I don't want to judge that until I played with them.
You're already judging it's better than spider mines...
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Widow mines aren't supposed to be super cost effective in battles, there they just should force some micro, like force fields do and if handled correctly they do force micro and reduce the damage output of armies. Also they can change the design, that mines exploded when the unit dies, that they don't do friendly aoe etc, make them not unable to be carried by transporters.
I think the mine will go the same path as the baneling, horrible for players but awesome to watch.
Oh and that the widow mine can't be used to buffer for your army, was the first critic point given just when we first saw the widow mine. But they explained that the mine wasn't supposed to be part of the deathball.
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OP said this is not about balance and still goes into length about the explosion timer and damage, after that costs get discussed.
That's NOT a design discussion and i personally dont even know why this thread is still open.
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oh god another terran whine thread about a game that isnt out yet. when will this stop?
srsly this is a completely different game with a completely different meta ... how can you predict that every protoss will still play zealots for example? you cant. most likely they will but you cant say it 100% certain. And also there is a randomness in the game deal with it ... every race has some things that seem kinda random and this is how starcraft works deal with it or go play mmos or fps.
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On August 01 2012 00:40 Xiphos wrote:
Let me get this straight.
Is Blizzard removing WM?
if there is, there's like 0 things that sounds to play at all with the new terran units.
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I agree that the Widow mine is very flawed.
It dissapears when the unit it's attached to dies, so you can't really setup a trap with them.
They take 10 seconds to explode, for any1 with decent micro it takes max 2 seconds to ctrl + click 4-5 widow mined units out of their army and move them away.
Most people dont like AOE Abilities, Infestors and Colossi are the 2 most hated (and loved at the same time) Starcraft units and until recently the Ghost belonged to that list aswell. High templars were also really strong and still are but they did take a big hit back when Amulet got removed.
Point being, do we really want more AOE in the game?
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On August 01 2012 01:08 Jakkerr wrote:
I agree that the Widow is very flawed.
It dissapears when the unit it's attached to dies, so you can't really setup a trap with them.
They take 10 seconds to explode, for any1 with decent micro it takes max 2 seconds to ctrl + click 4-5 widow mined units out of their army and move them away.
Most people dont like AOE Abilities, Infestors and Colossi are the 2 most hated (and loved at the same time) Starcraft units and until recently the Ghost belonged to that list aswell. High templars were also really strong and still are but they did take a big hit back when Amulet got removed.
Point being, do we really want more AOE in the game?
no ae more deathball
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On August 01 2012 00:59 Thune wrote:
oh god another terran whine thread about a game that isnt out yet. when will this stop?
srsly this is a completely different game with a completely different meta ... how can you predict that every protoss will still play zealots for example? you cant. most likely they will but you cant say it 100% certain. And also there is a randomness in the game deal with it ... every race has some things that seem kinda random and this is how starcraft works deal with it or go play mmos or fps.
Oh look, another person whining about someone who isn't whining, but actually posting something for the community.
Anyways, i'm not too sure what I feel about the mine.
1) Can it do AOE damage to your own units?
EG. It attatches to a ling, and the ling runs into your army.. But even then you could just kill the ling, and its a horrible investement.
2)Its SO easy to just grab the unit and run it off to die, so scout with a zergling, make the mine attatch, and run away.
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On July 31 2012 03:16 Grapefruit wrote:
Okay, so a few days ago I made a thread about Terran in HotS, which was closed pretty much immidiatly. A few days later a new thread was made that only covered one of the topics I used, which is very active right now. I'm not sure how this is fair. Sure, my thread wasn't as facy but it seemed like people were actually starting a discussion rather than premature balance whine.
This is the best intro I have ever seen to get a person to NOT read anything that you have posted below it. This is still a balance whine topic and whats even worse is that it's about a unit that hasnt even been released.
Oh, and why is it that a burrowed baneling is perfectly OK while a widow mine is somehow fundamentally flawed and should be banned at all costs?
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It should just be like the spidermine, maybe decrease the damage, but well..
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On August 01 2012 00:40 antilyon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 00:06 Bommes wrote:On July 31 2012 16:17 a176 wrote:
yet now blizzard wants to attach a resource and supply cost to the unit? they really expect players to sacrifice [significant] resources, production time, and most importantly, supply, to mine up a map? If you would use Widow Mines to "mine up a map" and never touch them again you'd deserve to waste supply and ressources. Widow Mines are entirely different from Spider Mines and they are much stronger because you can manually walk them in or unburrow them in case of danger. Also they don't have a delay until they attach, you can't dodge them once you get in range of them. Spider mines could even be countered if you had no detection at all, and rightfully so because they were really cheap and easy to get. So Widow Mines should be a lot more costly. Whether or not they are bad design, I don't know and I don't want to judge that until I played with them. You're already judging it's better than spider mines...
What? I never said the design of Widow Mines is better than the design of Spider Mines.
I said 1 Widow Mine is stronger than 1 Spider Mine, and thats not a judgement about balance or design thats just pure observation and logical based on how you got 3 Spider Mines for 75 Minerals while Widow Mines cost that amount of minerals each and even some gas. I already explained the reasons why Widow Mines are stronger and not supposed to "mine up a map".
I could probably blow your mind even more and say a Warhound will be stronger than a Marine.
But lets not judge that until HotS comes out.
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EPT
