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On August 01 2012 01:08 Jakkerr wrote:
I agree that the Widow mine is very flawed.
It dissapears when the unit it's attached to dies, so you can't really setup a trap with them.
They take 10 seconds to explode, for any1 with decent micro it takes max 2 seconds to ctrl + click 4-5 widow mined units out of their army and move them away.
Most people dont like AOE Abilities, Infestors and Colossi are the 2 most hated (and loved at the same time) Starcraft units and until recently the Ghost belonged to that list aswell. High templars were also really strong and still are but they did take a big hit back when Amulet got removed.
Point being, do we really want more AOE in the game?
Ehh, I'm pretty sure people love AOE that forces micro. The reason people don't like infestors would be because fungal holds the units in place and makes it impossible to do anything or micro at all once you are caught and chain fungaled.
The reason why people hate colossi is because they are boring and you can't really do anything with them, there is no micro to reward you if you use them correctly and there's nothing to punish you if you use them incorrectly. You can really only A move and pull back with them.
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Sorry to hear your old threads got closed. As an old member of this community I can tell you the mods are biased towards their "friends". Im pretty sure Idra can make a thread with a one liner and it'll still be fine.
On July 31 2012 03:33 The Final Boss wrote:
The fact that any of these threads have been made is sad. Why are we talking about balance regarding a game that is not even out....
Isn't it better to discuss something not out ? Because then we give Blizzard a chance to FIX IT before it come out and having to do a bunch of patch just to fix it up. This thread is not sad. If you want to discuss then you stay. If not then go look for other threads to read.
Edit: Anyways I should probably discuss about the topic of the thread so I dont derail from it and get a warning from the mods.
I think SC2 is not a game for gamers. It is a game for profit, purely profit. They throw out 100 different units to make it look "cool" and "awesome" and "Wow its a new unit!". But the more units you add the harder or I should say IMPOSSIBLE to balance. Take chess. There's like under 10 different units in Chess but still a classic game with infinite possibilities.
Blizzard is not helping esports. They just want money.
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On August 01 2012 01:14 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 03:16 Grapefruit wrote:
Okay, so a few days ago I made a thread about Terran in HotS, which was closed pretty much immidiatly. A few days later a new thread was made that only covered one of the topics I used, which is very active right now. I'm not sure how this is fair. Sure, my thread wasn't as facy but it seemed like people were actually starting a discussion rather than premature balance whine. This is the best intro I have ever seen to get a person to NOT read anything that you have posted below it. This is still a balance whine topic and whats even worse is that it's about a unit that hasnt even been released. Oh, and why is it that a burrowed baneling is perfectly OK while a widow mine is somehow fundamentally flawed and should be banned at all costs?
If you had actually read the OP instead of wasting your time making a fool of yourself with this post then you'd know. 
On August 01 2012 01:22 toopham wrote:
Sorry to hear your old threads got closed. As an old member of this community I can tell you the mods are biased towards their "friends". Im pretty sure Idra can make a thread with a one liner and it'll still be fine.
It says in the rules that you were supposed to read upon registering for this site that people who have been here longer, and people who are more well known (aka, pro players) will get preferential treatment.
If you don't like it you're free to leave ^.^
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If Mine detonates when the unit who carried it dies - this is OK. Otherwise a couple of lings will catch them all and die instantly to tank shots.
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Come on. Its a good find and all, but its too early. There might be some cool timings or strategy that no ones thought of yet, just wait and see.
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They should just make it a Spidermine with 1 second delay and slight splash, built from the factory.
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Interesting thread, I don't think it's bad to talk about these things before they come out. Might not be that positive but if we are upbeat about everything we end up in situations we cannot reverse, like Blizzard says; once a game ships they don't change mechanics.
Gold Find in Diablo III was discussed on Battle.net forums as a big issue, if it got more attention perhaps it wouldn't have made it into the final version like this widow mine. 
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This is dumb.
The unit needs to be tweaked and it will be.. The unit as it exists right now is not what is going to exist at release of the Beta.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if they lowered the detonation time a little and made it so the mine only attached to units that were larger than a certain size (like, they wouldn't attach to zelots because they are too small, but they attach to stalkers and units as large or larger than them). If those two relatively minor changes occurred, would you then be happy? If so, the unit isn't fundamentally flawed. It just needs tweaking.
Also, the thing you said about compositions and builds not mattering is garbage. Placement of units in a build affects which units they are likely to interact with which matters quite a bit to the usefulness of the unit.
Finally, units have been used in incredibly creative ways since the release of sc2. The creativity of the use of the unit is evident when you look at how the units are placed in builds to counter certain compositions at specific moments in the game. Countless different 2 base allins from protoss have utilized combinations of "straightforward" units in intelligent ways to kill zerg players by attacking in ways that take advantage of less good compositions. The defense of these allins is anything but simple. The widow mine will be used in ways that are beyond our scope of understanding at this current moment in time. You think that this is not an issue with your post but I strongly disagree.
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On August 01 2012 01:23 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 01:22 toopham wrote:
Sorry to hear your old threads got closed. As an old member of this community I can tell you the mods are biased towards their "friends". Im pretty sure Idra can make a thread with a one liner and it'll still be fine.
It says in the rules that you were supposed to read upon registering for this site that people who have been here longer, and people who are more well known (aka, pro players) will get preferential treatment. If you don't like it you're free to leave ^.^
I did leave for a year., came back because of my love for starcraft. I'm here for the content, not for the mods. so I don't really give a shit about them.
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On August 01 2012 01:48 VictorJones wrote:
This is dumb.
The unit needs to be tweaked and it will be.. The unit as it exists right now is not what is going to exist at release of the Beta.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if they lowered the detonation time a little and made it so the mine only attached to units that were larger than a certain size (like, they wouldn't attach to zelots because they are too small, but they attach to stalkers and units as large or larger than them). If those two relatively minor changes occurred, would you then be happy? If so, the unit isn't fundamentally flawed. It just needs tweaking.
Also, the thing you said about compositions and builds not mattering is garbage. Placement of units in a build affects which units they are likely to interact with which matters quite a bit to the usefulness of the unit.
Finally, units have been used in incredibly creative ways since the release of sc2. The creativity of the use of the unit is evident when you look at how the units are placed in builds to counter certain compositions at specific moments in the game. Countless different 2 base allins from protoss have utilized combinations of "straightforward" units in intelligent ways to kill zerg players by attacking in ways that take advantage of less good compositions. The defense of these allins is anything but simple. The widow mine will be used in ways that are beyond our scope of understanding at this current moment in time. You think that this is not an issue with your post but I strongly disagree.
The unit definitely need tweaking. As a starcraft community we discuss about these things. So what you're saying is you fully trust Blizzard to tweak the units to how the community like it. In that case, I say you're dumb. We're here to discuss about it so Blizzard know and then they can decide on a solution of their own. This is not dumb.
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The major problem about the widow mine is that it is a unit in itself, whereas the role it is trying to fill(Spider mine) game from a unit that could do additional things beside the spider mine. The spider/widow mine has the possibility to do 0 damage or terrible damage, that is what makes it fun to watch, but 0 damage sucks for spending money and using a factory for it... IMHO, bring back vultures, or put it on the reaper/hellion. That way the idea of the unit is helpful and the threat is there.
IMHO The way blizzard is heading with the game it just seems more and more like BW. I just wonder why people stubbornly say that new units are the way to go while the new units try to be what the old units were but in a "new" way that is flawed deep in the design... Sometimes it isn't that bad...
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widow mine looks like a great defensive tool - you plant them in your mineral line just before you go attack and when the drop come to harass while you away the mines all save the workers.
also you you plant it in the mineral line in your enemy 3rd /4th /5th early and just let it attach to one workers and kill them instantly.
also it could be used like borrow zergling is used now but more deadly .
its not stright up fight unit but a unit that can deal alot of dmg when other big things happen.
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I see two major objections you have against the widow mine, and they are:
1. 10 seconds is too long of an arming time. My answer: The bio force in the first video can easily disengage with Stimpack, making the 10 second wait more bearable. Also: 10 seconds is a placeholder value for how long it takes them to detonate. If that's too slow, balance changes will speed it up. This is a numerical issue easily fixed via balance changes.
2. If you kill the unit that the mine is attached to, the mine doesn't explode; this randomness is a bad thing. Well, what about the randomness of baneling land mines? Of whether the enemy army happens to walk over them or just misses them? That's hardly a huge problem. Also: the situations in which the Widow Mine were showed off don't need to be the way players actually use them. They can be used as base defense vs. dropships and banshees and mutalisks as well, in which case the problem of your army "accidentally" killing the unit with the mine ceases to be relevant.
I think you make a pretty weak case about the Widow Mine being fundamentally flawed. This is not to say that it ISN'T fundamentally flawed, it might be; it's just that your reasons for why it's flawed aren't very good.
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On August 01 2012 00:59 Gajarell wrote:
OP said this is not about balance and still goes into length about the explosion timer and damage, after that costs get discussed.
That's NOT a design discussion and i personally dont even know why this thread is still open.
Really? If you're serious about that I doubt that you know what the word balance means.
The world balance implies equality of TWO things but I am only talking about ONE. I am not talking about how another race gets something better or worse, just that the Widow Mine itself is not a useful unit.
On August 01 2012 02:38 Serp87 wrote:widow mine looks like a great defensive tool - you plant them in your mineral line just before you go attack and when the drop come to harass while you away the mines all save the workers. also you you plant it in the mineral line in your enemy 3rd /4th /5th early and just let it attach to one workers and kill them instantly. also it could be used like borrow zergling is used now but more deadly . its not stright up fight unit but a unit that can deal alot of dmg when other big things happen.
A drop will clear your mineral line before the mine explodes.
On August 01 2012 02:49 Zato-1 wrote:
I see two major objections you have against the widow mine, and they are:
1. 10 seconds is too long of an arming time. My answer: The bio force in the first video can easily disengage with Stimpack, making the 10 second wait more bearable. Also: 10 seconds is a placeholder value for how long it takes them to detonate. If that's too slow, balance changes will speed it up. This is a numerical issue easily fixed via balance changes.
2. If you kill the unit that the mine is attached to, the mine doesn't explode; this randomness is a bad thing. Well, what about the randomness of baneling land mines? Of whether the enemy army happens to walk over them or just misses them? That's hardly a huge problem. Also: the situations in which the Widow Mine were showed off don't need to be the way players actually use them. They can be used as base defense vs. dropships and banshees and mutalisks as well, in which case the problem of your army "accidentally" killing the unit with the mine ceases to be relevant.
I think you make a pretty weak case about the Widow Mine being fundamentally flawed. This is not to say that it ISN'T fundamentally flawed, it might be; it's just that your reasons for why it's flawed aren't very good.
I really have NO idea why you think that I complain that 10 seconds is too long of a time for it to explode. No idea, at all. I wasn't even talking about that. I stopped reading after that, but I think that's just fair since you obviously didn't pay much attention to my post either.
Jesus fucking Christ, guys. So much baseless critique. So many people, who disagree but so far not a single reasonable argument that invalidates any of my points. And the tone of many post really give me the feel that I'm some kind of asshole or idiot for trying to do something for the community.
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On August 01 2012 01:20 Darneck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 01:08 Jakkerr wrote:
I agree that the Widow mine is very flawed.
It dissapears when the unit it's attached to dies, so you can't really setup a trap with them.
They take 10 seconds to explode, for any1 with decent micro it takes max 2 seconds to ctrl + click 4-5 widow mined units out of their army and move them away.
Most people dont like AOE Abilities, Infestors and Colossi are the 2 most hated (and loved at the same time) Starcraft units and until recently the Ghost belonged to that list aswell. High templars were also really strong and still are but they did take a big hit back when Amulet got removed.
Point being, do we really want more AOE in the game? Ehh, I'm pretty sure people love AOE that forces micro. The reason people don't like infestors would be because fungal holds the units in place and makes it impossible to do anything or micro at all once you are caught and chain fungaled. The reason why people hate colossi is because they are boring and you can't really do anything with them, there is no micro to reward you if you use them correctly and there's nothing to punish you if you use them incorrectly. You can really only A move and pull back with them.
After watching that video the widow mine is one of my favorite aspects of hots. As you stated, the forced micro is very appealing to me especially with the BW pros moving over to SC2. I want to watch games where widow mines are rendered nearly useless due to sick micro. I also love the fact that the mine is clearly represented with an ingame visual.
I also agree with your points about most of the other AOEs in the game. I wish fungal growth would immediately hold the first unit and spread to other nearby units on one second intervals... something that forces quick micro but doesn't make the ability completely worthless.
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Just thought of a good use for them, widow mine => your own BC => speed boost into BL' Corr ball. Epic.
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The unit isn't available yet. Any speculation is just masterbation and a waste of energy. Let it be playable, then argue its utility.
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blizzard said they are gonna change espicially the widow mine this is why the HOTS beta isnt out yet...
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On August 01 2012 03:58 Dagan159 wrote:
Just thought of a good use for them, widow mine => your own BC => speed boost into BL' Corr ball. Epic.
Can't target your own units.
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In the Blizz video it looks like the mines avoid the zealots. Maybe they ignore light units and only attach to armored?
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EPT
