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Traceback
United States469 Posts
On August 01 2012 12:03 tokicheese wrote: There are no overseers any more vipers make things detectors now. They put overseers back in at last MLG build and removed the detection ability from vipers. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
Don't listen to this guy, he don't know anything. Yes Spider Mines damage friendly units. | ||
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terriBean
Canada75 Posts
On August 01 2012 12:03 tokicheese wrote: Who doesnt already have an observer with their protoss army...? Seriously that means nothing to have one they cost basically nothing and any toss who doesn't have one already deserves to lose because cloaked ghosts are incredibly common. There are no overseers any more vipers make things detectors now. So no you made no points at all. Good try though. They take time to build, if the Terran is active in sniping them then you can still make widow mines work. Don't forget about stuff like warp prism harass/proxy pylon counter attacks etc. Protoss won't be able to consistently get observers into those situations 100% of the time. Also, you forgot about Zerg and Terran. | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On August 01 2012 11:49 Griffith` wrote: Vultures: 75 mineral unit that gives you 3 mines. No timer. No supply. Widow Mine: 75/25 unit. 10 second timer. 1 supply. lol wat How is this even a thing? OH GOD THEY'RE BOTH MINES AND THEY'RE BOTH IN STARCRAFT GAMES. BETTER COMPARE EM TO EACH OTHER! Widow mine - No 100/100 upgrade or upgrade time OR tech lab / machine shop required. Cannot be sniped en route to target. Benefit from upgrades (?) Are in a game where overseers aren't detection by default. (!!!!) Can latch on to invisible units without detection (?) Are in a game where Hydras are fucking terrible, and where most zerg units couldn't even hit a detected mine without it nuking them. Do more damage than spider mines. It's like complaining that nukes are bad (*). Are they ever going to clear out the entirety of your opponent's army reliably? Hell no. Are they useless? Hell no. They're a distraction/positional play that you -can- use not to HERPDERP explode your opponent's entire army, but to limit his options or increase the risks he's gotta take to allow yourself other advantages or opportunities in the game. This is SC2, not some other RTS... and elements that provide players opportunities to push for specific advantages in a game is exactly what this is about. Widow mines are exactly that; something that should allow you more opportunity to safely get to mech play (or stronger econ play or other tech play or whatever, really) while forcing certain responses out of your opponent. (*worse, this specific complaint is kinda like comparing SC:BW nukes to SC2 nukes. Comically different and obviously intentionally so.) | ||
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:44 Grapefruit wrote: Well, you claimed to describe a fundamental design flaw while in fact you offered some opinions about certain widow mine stats which could be balanced differently. Not only that you act like you know more about game and balance design as David Kim and his team, you act as if Blizzard is going to make a big mistake and without your awareness raising thread it would be likely that this flawed unit would stay in the game.So much baseless critique. So many people, who disagree but so far not a single reasonable argument that invalidates any of my points.. You analyse a battle report which was made to show off some new stuff, not to provide a sneak into progaming use of the new units. It is clear that one cannot show high-level usage of the units when the game isn't even out yet. Then you show that one better builds units that widow mines for a straight-up fight. Bit it is not intended to be used in the death ball. It is there to remove supply and resources from the army for the benefit of locking down some parts of the map. Blizzard employees did say so. It is hard to invalidate your point when one needs to tell you about all information available first. You shift the burden to us instead of making a sound argument which reflects the actual usage of the unit. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On August 01 2012 13:21 Jombozeus wrote: If Blizzard actually listens to feedback during their beta, threads like these wouldn't be needed. But alas, they don't. They do. What DB said in a recent interview was -- at least this is what I understood it -- that Blizzard don't listens too much to lower league ladder players anymore. Of course Blizzard is in contact with professional gamers for feedback. To be honest, I am glad that they got their priorities right. They made some changes in the past -- even one for HotS -- which should help lower league players, for example the battle hellion will spawn in battle mode, not in hellion mode. If I understood it right, the Shredder was removed from HotS primarily because of concerns about lower league players who don't have the map awareness to react in time to a Shredder drop into the mineal line (also the usage was quirky as the Shredder got deactivated too often by a unit which run unintentionally into the Shredder's proximity.) The widow mine was shown at the event even though the artwork wasn't final because Blizzard did want the community feed-back; but probably rather pro feedback than random silver guy feedback. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On August 01 2012 13:12 Staboteur wrote: How is this even a thing? OH GOD THEY'RE BOTH MINES AND THEY'RE BOTH IN STARCRAFT GAMES. BETTER COMPARE EM TO EACH OTHER! Widow mine - No 100/100 upgrade or upgrade time OR tech lab / machine shop required. Cannot be sniped en route to target. Benefit from upgrades (?) Are in a game where overseers aren't detection by default. (!!!!) Can latch on to invisible units without detection (?) Are in a game where Hydras are fucking terrible, and where most zerg units couldn't even hit a detected mine without it nuking them. Do more damage than spider mines. It's like complaining that nukes are bad (*). Are they ever going to clear out the entirety of your opponent's army reliably? Hell no. Are they useless? Hell no. They're a distraction/positional play that you -can- use not to HERPDERP explode your opponent's entire army, but to limit his options or increase the risks he's gotta take to allow yourself other advantages or opportunities in the game. This is SC2, not some other RTS... and elements that provide players opportunities to push for specific advantages in a game is exactly what this is about. Widow mines are exactly that; something that should allow you more opportunity to safely get to mech play (or stronger econ play or other tech play or whatever, really) while forcing certain responses out of your opponent. (*worse, this specific complaint is kinda like comparing SC:BW nukes to SC2 nukes. Comically different and obviously intentionally so.) And they also attack air, which is sick good. It isn't easy at all as people say to just go with Observer and wipe out the mines, since Mines have 5 range, and you can't just move the Observer over the top of the Mines and attack them with the Stalker. It can be done, but it will be slowly and micro intensive since you don't want to lose the Observer. I think that this unit with damage tweaks will be great. They also can put upgrade for it so they reduce the timer to 7 seconds for example. | ||
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
On August 01 2012 13:21 Jombozeus wrote: If Blizzard actually listens to feedback during their beta, threads like these wouldn't be needed. But alas, they don't. Never give up hope. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On July 31 2012 03:16 Grapefruit wrote: So far so good, but this is where we get to the biggest flaw of the Widow Mine, if the unit the Mine is attached to dies, the Mine is gone. That seems to be the main point of the OP. First of all, do we have a source for that? I don't remember anyone from Blizzard talking about this. But, assuming this is true: Yes, that would be bad. There's an even simpler problem that's not discussed in the OP with this: The defending player can simply kill his own units once the mine is attached to it, negating any effect. But this is a simple design flaw that (if it exists at all) can easily be fixed: If the unit that the mine is attached to dies, it could just reset itself, or cling to the next unit without having the counter reset. That would solve all the problems the OP describes, as far as I can tell. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
On August 03 2012 23:41 Whitewing wrote: It's going to be the most annoying thing in the world when I rally an observer out of the robotics facility to the terran's base and it gets killed by a widow mine on the way there. Mines that jump out of the ground to stick to invisible flying units and terrans complain about having them? Cost inefficient trade, plus the Mine reveals that factory tech is out. | ||
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wangstra
922 Posts
Why bother? I mean you succinctly put it already. In combat situations, especially deathballs, the design of the mine is contradictory. Take a TvP scenario, if low value targets like zealots are highlighted, they will most likely be taken out before the 10 seconds are up. If both players want to engage anyway, the widow mine doesn't do anything to zone off the field as the Protoss player anticipates the mines won't have time to going off anyway. If the mines do manage to highlight on say all the colossus instead, a well prepared Terran will be targeting them down anyway with his Vikings. Imagine a deathball class where the colossus were allowed to rain down fire for 10 seconds simply to let the mines do their thing, well there won't be a Terran bioball anyway. Anyway just hang in tight until the beta releases, in general discussing topics with this community is a skullf*. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
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GuardianEU
Netherlands488 Posts
On August 03 2012 23:49 Grapefruit wrote: Cost inefficient trade, plus the Mine reveals that factory tech is out. 75/25 vs 25/75, gas is worth more than minerals, do the math. and the death of an observer reveals robo tech... what's your point? | ||
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wangstra
922 Posts
On August 03 2012 23:41 Whitewing wrote: It's going to be the most annoying thing in the world when I rally an observer out of the robotics facility to the terran's base and it gets killed by a widow mine on the way there. Mines that jump out of the ground to stick to invisible flying units and terrans complain about having them? Lets actually think that through. You build a factory and use up build time to make a mine and then place them where on the map? Do observers have sweet spots like overlords on the map? Can you anticipate where the observer will travel? All right, so you put them around the perimeter of your bases to discourage incursions. Why not build turrets and not tie up the factory? Lets assume you know exactly where the observes will go, etc. You're banking on a the player not being mindful of how he moves his obs. Careless protoss do already lose obs when they send them into bases without paying attention to turrets, spores, etc. Mines don't suddenly become more dangerous against players who do pay attention. | ||
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Domus
510 Posts
For example, yes, it would probably be bad to let the mines link to the zealots, although taking out the meatshield before the engagement is pretty nice. But...what if you would have the mines behind you combat line, That might be a better place to put them, since it gives you time to take out any observers. now what if you would kite back and destroy the zealots? The protoss will doubt if he should follow you, because you could have a spider line there that will directly take out the stalkers. Anyway, I don't think the mine is great, but not for the same reasons. To me it looks like a poorly executed, delayed burrowed baneling. It should have an option to not attach if you dont want it to. But we will not know until the game hits the shelves. | ||
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HowardRoark
1146 Posts
On July 31 2012 03:16 Grapefruit wrote: [/b]You'd have to anti-focus fire the units with Mines (not a-move but pick 2-3 units and let them attack units individually and assigning them a new target once it dies so they don't start to attack the units with mines). Really, think about how high the chances are that you unintentionally take out a unit with a Mine, that doesn't only lose you potential damage, you also basically kill one of your own units. That doesn't even take into consideration that the other player can influence this with his micro. This quote implies that the widow mine will be an amazing addition that will make pro games more interesting to watch! The harder the better the game will be for us spectators. I just wish Protoss would get something this hard to utilize since they are really lacking in hard to micro-units. | ||
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Highways
Australia6103 Posts
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