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On August 18 2012 18:40 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 18:28 Tppz! wrote:
I just had an panel with BLizzard including David Kim and he said that the widow mine change is true. Does it still splash? Because the korean translation kinda sounds like it doesn't but does more damage instead.
Yes, in the Korean translation they don't have splash anymore, but I think that they will put splash back, and reduce the AoE of it. It really doesn't make any sense for Mines to not have splash, even if they explode instantly and deal a lot of single target damage.
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On August 18 2012 18:51 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 18:40 Grapefruit wrote:On August 18 2012 18:28 Tppz! wrote:
I just had an panel with BLizzard including David Kim and he said that the widow mine change is true. Does it still splash? Because the korean translation kinda sounds like it doesn't but does more damage instead. Yes, in the Korean translation they don't have splash anymore, but I think that they will put splash back, and reduce the AoE of it. It really doesn't make any sense for Mines to not have splash, even if they explode instantly and deal a lot of single target damage.
Well, I'd be fine with no splash, if you're able to micro them and pick the unit they attach too. High micro involved to attach single mines during a battle but high reward too.
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On August 18 2012 18:17 BanditX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 17:40 Whitewing wrote:On August 18 2012 13:43 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 18 2012 12:43 Whitewing wrote:On August 18 2012 12:38 Positronic wrote:On August 18 2012 09:10 ROOTT1 wrote:On August 18 2012 09:02 stevarius wrote:On August 18 2012 09:00 ROOTT1 wrote:
widow mine is the most cost effective "unit" in hots =/, at least as far as ive seen in the sc2 hots ums
imo it shouldnt be able to target air + workers When you place restrictions like that on a unit, it becomes fucking retarded. Don't even start with that bullshit. The shredder already got removed for similar issues. can u fucking imagine how strong it becomes if it were able to target air units and workers without a timer? 2 mines would take out an entire mineral line, they were insanely cost efficient even before this buff.. removing the timer is fucking ridiculous for fuck sakes they even strap onto obs, how the fuck are we supposed to move around the map? I think the key is not a-moving your entire army w obs on one hotkey into where you believe T has mines set up. Come on you're being ridiculous, the mine doesn't even have a longer range than detect on obs. Um, if it can burrow really fast, just run a few into a mineral line or something. Widow mines are now officially cheap, reactor-able, burrowed banelings that hit air, do more damage, and require no micro to control and make sure it detonates. I mean... really? At least with vulture mines you could micro away from it and kill them after they pop up with decent control. Banelings are more cost efficient at clearing mineral lines. They explode instantly, have AoE (mines don't anymore), and are cheaper. You only need 4 to wipe an entire mineral line. I'm not so concerned about the mineral line thing tbh, but they do instead still have AoE (at least from what I can tell), it's just smaller. But they're going to be set and forget, with the same reward of a baneling land mine (less AoE I suppose, but can hit much bigger targets for a lot more, banelings suck vs. armored for example), without the micro requirement. I liked the widow mine better before, because at least that was interesting, albeit not so good. Hell, the freaking mine even hits air units. There's got to be a happy medium here somewhere. You could at least micro against spider mines in BW. Oddly enough, as they were with a 10 second detonation, they required micro in order to minimize they effectiveness of their damage. The trade off for making your opponent micro was that Mines cost supply, so if your opponent did micro properly, they would still win a direct engagement because the Terran used supply that could have been any other unit on mines. Seems fair to me in its original forum. Per usual though, forums are making a bloody mess of things. I've seriously lost some faith in TeamLiquid forums recently. First it was nerf Tanks! Now its nerf Mines, but buff Tanks! Fucking stupid is what it is. The mine was perfectly fine as it was, it was a great detriment against 1A across the map if used properly, but I guess TL loves their deathball playstyle? The only way to seperate a deathball is to make AOE better, and what do you guys do? Cry about AOE being too powerful. Hypocrits.
Pretty sure its a completely different faction in the TL community.
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Response to the OP:
Disregarding that the mine got changed:
1) It's not meant to be a combat unit, no matter how much you interprete "blizzard promotes it as one". No. It is simply not.
2) If you attach it to anything bigger than a ling or a marine or a worker, it is costefficient, even if the unit is getting pulled
A mine in the current "HotS Custom" version costs 75/25 can be reactored and is getting produced faster than hellions.
In fact, when playing the map I'm right now playing a lot of TvZ as Terran and I haven't really found an opponent that could really deal with mines, for as long as you are active with hellions and prevent single lings to pull out your mines one by one.
(this is just my experience with them. They are both awesome and very strong)
3) Many of your points how the mine can or cannot be used are simply wrong, from the experience I have with them.
-) they kill detectors if they get too close. any detector that is not controlled all the time, runs the risk to move into a mine
-) the mines are not only "place and wait". You can also wait for the opponent to deploy his slower units (like swarm hosts and Broodlords) and then run under them and burrow. You lose some, but the trade is still terribly costefficient not to even start talking about supply efficiency
Now about the mine change:
Imo the mine was too good. It was basically costefficient against any unit apart from lings, marines, workers and even with Overlords, zealots and roaches - all of that, if the opponent reacted correctly and pulled the unit!
As in many situations people would not be able to pull the units the mine would have been even costefficient against those units. The thing basically was, that the mine did not need to fulfill that "splash" role, nor did it need to. From my first experiences, this is a good move to make the mine easier to balance, as it's role is not "catch all" anymore, so it can stay good against single units. The only bad thing is, that it cuts a tiny little bit of micro from the game. (pulling that one unit out)
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On August 18 2012 18:40 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 18:28 Tppz! wrote:
I just had an panel with BLizzard including David Kim and he said that the widow mine change is true. Does it still splash? Because the korean translation kinda sounds like it doesn't but does more damage instead.
David Kim said the Splash Damage was reduced and the Single-Target-Damge was increased
here is the german AArticle i wrote about everything that was said in the round table:
http://starcraft2.ingame.de/kommentare.php?s=82&newsid=113496
maybe someone will translate it. I dont have that much time for it 
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I don't like to bump threads but I don't think it's worthy starting a new one for this but...
from the footage I've seen, the mines have a range of 3-4, correct? so, if you imagine lets say Cloud Kingdom, TvZ, the zerg takes the 4th base on the low ground that has the ledge around it. If terran runs 3-4 mines to the high ground and burrows, they can jump onto drones - probably wiping out 80% of the drones at least? Since they are so small and the zerg doesnt get any warning sound etc this seems insanely imbalanced right?
Maybe I am over thinking / theory crafting yes, but there are many more things that I can see causing massive balance issues. It's almost as if they gave terran a baneling unit/
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On August 22 2012 03:27 malaan wrote:
I don't like to bump threads but I don't think it's worthy starting a new one for this but...
from the footage I've seen, the mines have a range of 3-4, correct? so, if you imagine lets say Cloud Kingdom, TvZ, the zerg takes the 4th base on the low ground that has the ledge around it. If terran runs 3-4 mines to the high ground and burrows, they can jump onto drones - probably wiping out 80% of the drones at least? Since they are so small and the zerg doesnt get any warning sound etc this seems insanely imbalanced right?
Maybe I am over thinking / theory crafting yes, but there are many more things that I can see causing massive balance issues. It's almost as if they gave terran a baneling unit/ Don't know if the mines can jump over cliffs. If so, then yeah, it gets harder for zerg to safely mine there. Keep in mind we do not know anything in terms of splash damage yet.
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I think around 50-80 dmg is a good number for splash damage.
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On August 22 2012 03:27 malaan wrote:
I don't like to bump threads but I don't think it's worthy starting a new one for this but...
from the footage I've seen, the mines have a range of 3-4, correct? so, if you imagine lets say Cloud Kingdom, TvZ, the zerg takes the 4th base on the low ground that has the ledge around it. If terran runs 3-4 mines to the high ground and burrows, they can jump onto drones - probably wiping out 80% of the drones at least? Since they are so small and the zerg doesnt get any warning sound etc this seems insanely imbalanced right?
Protoss storms / zerg fungals from there are pretty imba too... (with or without a warning, your workers are still screwed). Just make sure you spread creep so you can see it coming and pull workers in time.
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I'm pretty excited about the change to 'insta-explode' rather than 10 second delay as well but I feel like Bliz just gave up and said okay, here's spider mines, except now they're called Widow Mines and hit air and cost supply. I'd really like to see some originality and different concepts that still provide Terran a means to zone. One idea I provided in the In defence of Mech blog post was the following:
Give "bike-mode" hellions an upgrade called Hot Wire. The ability would allow you basically to set a "trip wire". You click to drop the charge and then either select the charge (sort of like a creep tumor) and it allows you to select where to put the other end of the wire within the radius of 5-7 or you just drive the hellion and it automatically lays the other end of the line after 5-7 range. Any enemy unit that crosses the straight line between the 2 charges will cause a splash damage effect in a straight line between the two charges. Maybe add in a check to make sure that no 2 'trip wires' can cross.
It's similiar in its function but different enough that I don't feel like it's just a rehashed spider mine. Also, I feel that the mines shouldn't tie up supply.
I guess I should just be happy that Terran finally has that it's sorely missing but it just feels unininspired. Then again, my expectations may be too high.
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Give it a reasonable amount of splash, if it instantly detonates on a single unit like a zergling it's going to be massively cost and supply inefficient and it won't be used.
On August 22 2012 03:27 malaan wrote:
I don't like to bump threads but I don't think it's worthy starting a new one for this but...
from the footage I've seen, the mines have a range of 3-4, correct? so, if you imagine lets say Cloud Kingdom, TvZ, the zerg takes the 4th base on the low ground that has the ledge around it. If terran runs 3-4 mines to the high ground and burrows, they can jump onto drones - probably wiping out 80% of the drones at least? Since they are so small and the zerg doesnt get any warning sound etc this seems insanely imbalanced right?
Maybe I am over thinking / theory crafting yes, but there are many more things that I can see causing massive balance issues. It's almost as if they gave terran a baneling unit/
Something like that could be solved by simply spreading creep there and paying attention to the minimap and pull away the drones while it's burrowing then use a couple of zerglings to bait it out.
Enough of this theory crafting though, lets actually wait until beta is released and then everybody can make their own informed decisions.
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EPT
