EPT[D] Widow Mine Fundamentally Flawed - Page 3
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s1ege
Korea (South)123 Posts
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Nightsz
Canada398 Posts
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SniXSniPe
United States1938 Posts
On July 31 2012 03:44 Mongoose wrote: I gotta agree with the OP. spider mines just seem like a bad idea in general. There should be less 'terrible damage' and more skill based units. Because there isn't enough skill based on army control with Terran units already, right? I like the mine for some things, and dislike it for others. But one thing I can potentially see it doing is causing Z/P to focus more on controlling their units. You have plenty of time to see the mine un-burrow/attach (though I'm not sure if the person with the mine attached to their units will see what unit has the mine), and then to split your units. The mine has a decently long detonation time (>5 in game seconds? I think, don't remember--- and that was at Anaheim so I'm unaware if anything has been changed). | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On July 31 2012 03:53 Grapefruit wrote: If it is not meant to fill that role why is it promoted like that? Since when are units only supposed to be used as blizzard tells us to use them? Seriously, this entire thread is dumb before we hear anything about the beta, the widow mine might be completely cut at that point. | ||
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GHSTxGlitch
United States20 Posts
I think its going to be used more vs zerg when the zerg player is going heavy ling baneling style...You have 4 widow mines connect with a 200 supply ling infestor army its gonna be nearly impossible to click the 4 zerglings with the mines right away since they're so small...and even if just one of the widow mines go off the zerg will lose a good 25-30 lings from the explosion.. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
What's hard to understand in " Wait the freaking beta " ? | ||
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
They might not even be in the game any more. David Kim might've said a month ago "these widow mines.. they're pretty shit, let's give terran something else instead" We're talking about a closed alpha, and we don't have a single clue what state these mines are in right now, yet people still find it so necessary to open up 35 different threads about their opinions of these. It's as if new concept art was released by blizzard of Raynor with a big gun, and 85 threads open up about his gun looking too big, and the imminent need to nerf it. We don't know shit about hots, so balance discussion is utterly pointless. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
my opponents zealots ran into my minefield and tanks killed 1 zealot very quickly, he had a mine on himself and exploded. then the zealots around him died from the explosion and they exploded too. basically it created a chain reactions of all mines exploding once the first zealot was killed by the tanks so in the hots map the mine explodes, it doesnt in real hots? o.o it just disappear? regardless if it does or not, i think it should explode and act like this, however because that might be too strong during battles it would have to be nerfed so much to make it unuseful to use outside the battle. so a good solution in my opinion is to reduce the splash dmg to 50% if the mine detonates before the 10 seconds pass the chain reaction as it is right now seems to strong and if the mine disappears upon death makes it close to useless instead. your idea of % dmg after each second makes sense but its too blurry and makes it feel abit too random, thats why i like an idea of saying 50% always before 10 sec instead of it having 10 different states of damage the unit isnt fundamentally flawed it just needs to be tweaked in the right way in terms of if the unit is killed, how much damage it does as well as the 10 sec timer in a way that works inside and outside a battle without making it too complicated and confusing. id hate to see if they skip this unit just because they wont find a good balance, because the unit is in my opinion very good | ||
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antilyon
Brazil2546 Posts
On July 31 2012 04:02 GHSTxGlitch wrote: First off i dont think we should be talking about this since the beta hasnt even come out yet but whatever. I think its going to be used more vs zerg when the zerg player is going heavy ling baneling style...You have 4 widow mines connect with a 200 supply ling infestor army its gonna be nearly impossible to click the 4 zerglings with the mines right away since they're so small...and even if just one of the widow mines go off the zerg will lose a good 25-30 lings from the explosion.. Read the entire thread or play the HOTS mod before commenting, it sn't flawed because it doesn't do enough damage or because it can be nagated with little ammount of micro. It's flawed because in case of a 200/200 army clash, the units with a widow mine attached will almost never live long enough to detonate on anything. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 31 2012 04:05 Euronyme wrote: These units are concepts. Bliz wants to try out and see if they like the concept of these units. It's basically just to see if they would make for a fun gameplay. They might not even be in the game any more. David Kim might've said a month ago "these widow mines.. they're pretty shit, let's give terran something else instead" We're talking about a closed alpha, and we don't have a single clue what state these mines are in right now, yet people still find it so necessary to open up 35 different threads about their opinions of these. It's as if new concept art was released by blizzard of Raynor with a big gun, and 85 threads open up about his gun looking too big, and the imminent need to nerf it. We don't know shit about hots, so balance discussion is utterly pointless. I don't really agree. Talking about whether we think Blizzard is going in the right direction based on what they've seen fit to show us it completely relevant. For example, if Blizzard had come out at Blizzcon and said "hey, we think players are having too much trouble beating Hydralisk compositions" it would have made tonnes of sense to say they're going in the wrong direction by thinking that. Similarly, trying to give Terran a-move units to tone down their micro is going in the wrong direction. What needs to be done is increasing the margin for error that other, non-Terran units have, thereby raising the skill ceiling. | ||
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netherh
United Kingdom333 Posts
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Enki
United States2548 Posts
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On July 31 2012 04:00 Nightsz wrote: I wonder if we'll start seeing intentional dt drops into widow mines. that make you blow up ur own units. Just like how spider mines did. Brilliant! And it'd be easier too! | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On July 31 2012 03:33 The Final Boss wrote: The fact that any of these threads have been made is sad. Why are we talking about balance regarding a game that is not even out.... What the hell, man? Why does everything on TL HAVE to come back to balance? OP explicitly states that this is not a balance thread, and you STILL insist on criticizing him for balance whining? Making a perfectly balanced game is easy. You make only one race, and the only unit anyone can make is the footman from Warcraft. But if you want the game to be remotely interesting or fun, you need to add interesting design. Things like asymmetrical races, or new and interesting mechanics. Now we're discussing GAME DESIGN, which is an entirely different topic from balance. (Or rather, balance is a subset of game design; so bad balance is bad game design, but bad game design is not necessarily imbalanced). Personally, I don't think the design is fundamentally flawed (although there's absolutely no reason we can't discuss it just yet). You're supposed to keep widow mines away from your army, not close. Or if they are close, you have to run with your army until they detonate. If you take losses in that time, you should have had your army further away. But I think the design would be significantly better with a shorter detonation time, and much smaller AoE. | ||
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Vandal
United States138 Posts
On July 31 2012 04:06 antilyon wrote: Read the entire thread or play the HOTS mod before commenting, it sn't flawed because it doesn't do enough damage or because it can be nagated with little ammount of micro. It's flawed because in case of a 200/200 army clash, the units with a widow mine attached will almost never live long enough to detonate on anything. That doesn't mean it's fundamentally flawed. That means it should cost less because it's not as effective as intended, or have a lower detonation time to make the cost justified. Both of these are balance changes. | ||
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MVega
763 Posts
On July 31 2012 04:11 Enki wrote: Until the HotS beta is released and we can get our hands on it, any discussion pertaining to balance is kinda pointless.... I agree. There are quite a few units now that are very different from the way they were originally presented to us and that went through major changes in the beta. I expect the same thing to happen here. If mines are too weak and not used they'll likely be changed, if they're too strong they'll be toned down. If they don't work either way they'll likely be replaced. Or they could end up like the reaper, but I doubt it. | ||
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
On July 31 2012 04:11 archonOOid wrote: Can't you manually target the widow mines? If so it would even more micro for the terran player in battle situations but on the other hand with a heavy widow mine composition you are most likely playing mech. Which units would you want to target? The ones that die anyways or the ones that you want to snipe? Also he would need to directly stand over the mines, which is not likely to happen with detection. | ||
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TheRealPaciFist
United States1049 Posts
On July 31 2012 03:32 Nagano wrote: I agree that it's hard to get offensive uses out of the widow mine because first, the timer is too long (and has to be because the damage is so high). Making the timer shorter would mean reducing damage output probably. The other spectrum is to make the detonation instant but the damage lowered significantly, which honestly, would probably be best considering at least you get use out of the units. I've been playing a lots of the HotS custom and it's really difficult to make the mines cost efficient when using it offensively. Let's say you plant the mines as your army is giong forward--the mines will auto attach to closest units which are going to be killed in 2 seconds anyways, basically losing you 75/25 on each mine. The ideal way I see using them would be to turn off auto attach (if you can do that?) so you can manually control the target that each mine goes to. Using mines defensively seems pretty worthless as well because lings running around the map makes the mine worthless. Observer use will make defensive mines against protoss not very cost effective. Honestly I think it's too early to tell but all signs point to the defensive use of mines at being pretty mediocre. Except when you put them in your own base defensively against air <snickers> TL;DR: the main culprit is the timer on the detonation, too long and the mine is easily cost inefficient if the opposing player has detection/mediocre speed. Do you think making the mines explode on unit death (and keeping the long delay) would be better? I was surprised when I found out the mines don't work this way (I would never want to build them if they're never going to help me in an actual head-on fight!), and it would be good because then you can try to target the unit that your mine targeted (it's like both players suddenly have the same thing to focus on with micro, which is pretty cool) But even without it, mines would still have some sort of use, I suppose. Kinda reminds me about Snipe, we're trying to maximize the usefulness from a design perspective rather than balance, where as Snipe went the opposite direction (I much prefer the design choice of making Snipe useful in more situations, because it's more fun, but it was nerfed for balance) | ||
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