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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 20 2012 14:30 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 14:24 johnnywup wrote:
still too early to tell imo, terrans need to learn different openers besides hellions which they haven't really yet The Terran race has used some of the most innovative and diverse strategies and openers. Reaper openers, nerfed. All sort of Marine-Aggro 2Rax builds, nerfed Rax Build time/Bunker Build Time/Stim Timing. Banshee openers -> Quicker Spore Root. Hellion BF Nerf. Now a Queen buff to deal with as well. And keep in mind, these are just the opening builds that were affected. This isn't even including the Siege Tank nerfs, Ghost nerf, Thor nerf. I have to say with all the "Let the metagame play out, they'll learn out to adapt". Terrans have adapted many times throughout most of the patches to changes (read: Nerfs). But once anything that is remotely even decent is found, it's nerfed into the ground.
I agree, I don't think Johnnywup should base his knowledge on purely nothing, Terrans have tried many things in the past but they all got nerfed as Eps has said, plz be considerate Johnnywups
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even DRG complains about it being imba, thats how you know there is a problem with the matchup.
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On June 20 2012 15:41 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:38 usethis2 wrote:On June 20 2012 15:34 Bagi wrote:On June 20 2012 15:30 usethis2 wrote:On June 20 2012 15:20 phiinix wrote:
I do feel the queen buff was strange considering that it seemed that most people felt it was the most balanced match up out of all of them.
It didn't look balanced at all when players like Ensnare, Supernova, or theSTC and the like beat Nestea/DRG. Yes, because your favorite players have to win every time or else the game is broken? TheSTC vs DRG for example, DRG just made unnecessarily risky pushes and the general consensus was that he didn't play his best that day. No I'm talking about why a certain race has players who tend to over-achieve (and disappear sooner or later) when another race's players usually under-achieve but persist over time. Might have been true a year ago, but in the context of the last patch (the post you quoted first) there is absolutely no proof of this.
As far as I remember, this season is the first season ever since the Open Season 2 (roach range +1) we got to see somewhat dubious Z players made it into Ro32. They're promptly removed before the Ro16.
Look, I have no vested interest in any race. I play toss casually but I do appreciate every race's excellent players and every match-ups. I think burst of tears over the minimally possible buff for Zerg is way hyperbole and premature. I have thought Z was a tough race to be successful (esp. in GSL setting where people coin builds over a week ahead) and tended to have less players who over-achieve, which indicated their fragile early game. I thought some buff was needed and Blizzard took the least impactful route (surely you and I don't want Z's combat units acquiring better stats - see infestors).
Chill out and how things develop. As far as I hear from the Korean casters, Blizzard has no intention to revert this change anytime soon at least for a couple of seasons of GSL.
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On June 20 2012 15:28 TENTHST wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:17 Sambobly wrote:On June 20 2012 15:02 usethis2 wrote:On June 20 2012 15:00 Sambobly wrote:
Yes Queen range is now too strong. The winrates make that pretty bloody clear. But nothing is going to be done about it so why bother talking? Just admit defeat and close up shop until HOTS. What win rates? Surely not GSL code S. Talking about TLPD winrates. Since patch something like 74% winrate zvt. The TLPD link is on the front page right now showing ZvT at 55%/45% with a margin of error of 3%. Did you really just post that the TLPD is at 75% for Zerg?
The TLPD stats he is refering to is the TLPD stats from last month: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343147
Did you really not know that?
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Watchig MKP vs Symbol in GSL earlier today made me realize how sad TvZ has become. Ask any pro T or Z about where the balance skews in TvZ currently. I've read some interviews of supernova and mma where supernova says "TvZ is impossible these days, in practice I win about 20~30% of the time". And MMA was recently interviewed in StarsWar 7 where he was quoted as saying "the latest changes are really balance breaking".
Hopefully David listens to the PROS instead of implementing whatever he feels like.
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i noticed that Terran cannot win against Zerg unless they are A LOT more skilled and better than their Zerg opponents.
Stop flattering yourselves, this is absolutely false and its getting really annoying seeing it pop up everywhere.
Terrans haven't figured out how to adjust yet is all. These things don't stay like this for very long because good players don't whine like all the common ladder people. They figure out ways to get past the "imba". Then again, maybe that's why they're pros and we're just scrubs.
*Edit* (Reason: Because this is just too sad... I can't believe I'm still seeing this)
Sambobly wrote: Talking about TLPD winrates. Since patch something like 74% winrate zvt.
I'm quoting this so it can't be edited away. Now quoting ZvT international rates (yes all you non-Koreans are international, not Korea) from your own source
Terran vs Zerg stat from TLPD May 2012 chart:
Terran: 45.1%
Zerg: 54.9%
I'll stick up for what this guy said. wtf are you babbling about 74% winrate.
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On June 20 2012 15:21 Wolfstan wrote:
Diamond Zerg player here I feel like we should treat the queen change as final and forever.
A few things that might help discussion into positive playstyle shifts.
1) is there any way to take advantage of a zerg that spent 900 mins and 12 supply on basically static defense? (double expand, tech to take advantage of lair/burrow delay, maybe a 900 mineral timing to kill the queens)
2) transitions once 3rd/4th goes up - it kills me a little inside when terrans add barracks 8-15 to increase production as they approach 3 base saturation, i think there might validity in adding say 2 factories, a starport and a second armory instead of instant remax with bio.
Any thoughts or replays of this different approach to the matchup?
If you can think of anything that the pros(who spends 10+ hours a day practicing and refining their builds) haven't thought of, let us know.
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On June 20 2012 15:52 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +i noticed that Terran cannot win against Zerg unless they are A LOT more skilled and better than their Zerg opponents. Stop flattering yourselves, this is absolutely false and its getting really annoying seeing it pop up everywhere. Terrans haven't figured out how to adjust yet is all. These things don't stay like this for very long because good players don't whine like all the common ladder people. They figure out ways to get past the "imba". Then again, maybe that's why they're pros and we're just scrubs.
You realise that is a quote from MVP, the best player in the world by results?
Good people dont whine? I guess you just ignore all the top korean Ts then haha.
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TvZ used to be the most balanced match up... I think the buff was unnecessary to be honest. But we will need to leave it another month or so before we can tell.
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I think mass hellion banshee opening as MKP did against yuigioh in Code S, was a decent counter. It wasn't all-in, MKP had 3 CC back at home but the ling/queen centric build symbol used seemed pretty weak to a mech opening with a lot of hellions followed by banshee. It's a lot harder to go roach and 6 queens, 3 queens and some roaches would have beat this, but that's the nature of builds.
I think there is still a lot to learn, we just have to wait and see.
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On June 20 2012 15:50 Terranist wrote:
even DRG complains about it being imba, thats how you know there is a problem with the matchup.
Now, you remember when Stephano was saying "zerg is OP against P" yea, look what happened a couple of months later.
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Yes and no. I think the main problem is how outrageously good fungal growth and zerg hive tech are and how few answers terran (and protoss to a lesser extent) has. I think queen range to 4 and making snipe good again would be a decent solution.
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No it is not to strong and this thread already exists.
T isn't abusing the lack of defence. With commitment you can kill so much drones with your helions since they aren't using any simcity / choke blocks anymore.
Since they don't denie the creep and aren't commiting to Eco-Dmg they have a hard time entering the mid/lategame
Rangebuff wasn't a DMG-buff
T is just losing to his mental fear "OMFG the queens have a higher range now"
Guess what?! Higher range -> no Spine , no sim city
-> Nothing protecting the drones
Watch the DH/MLG Reps. 80% of the Zergs would die to a hellion commitment.
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On June 20 2012 15:55 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:52 sCCrooked wrote:i noticed that Terran cannot win against Zerg unless they are A LOT more skilled and better than their Zerg opponents. Stop flattering yourselves, this is absolutely false and its getting really annoying seeing it pop up everywhere. Terrans haven't figured out how to adjust yet is all. These things don't stay like this for very long because good players don't whine like all the common ladder people. They figure out ways to get past the "imba". Then again, maybe that's why they're pros and we're just scrubs. You realise that is a quote from MVP, the best player in the world by results? Good people dont whine? I guess you just ignore all the top korean Ts then haha.
I say it again. Don't flatter yourself, you are not MVP and you do not face the Zergs that MVP faces. The chart shows below people able to use the utmost abilities and multi-tasking on this game, it does not affect them nearly as harshly or debateably, at all.
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Anything that is based off avilio really shouldnt be considered as evidence. However I agree that ZvT is unbalanced right now, i believe at spring arena DRG even said the matchup was broken.
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On June 20 2012 15:52 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +i noticed that Terran cannot win against Zerg unless they are A LOT more skilled and better than their Zerg opponents. Stop flattering yourselves, this is absolutely false and its getting really annoying seeing it pop up everywhere. Terrans haven't figured out how to adjust yet is all. These things don't stay like this for very long because good players don't whine like all the common ladder people. They figure out ways to get past the "imba". Then again, maybe that's why they're pros and we're just scrubs. *Edit* (Reason: Because this is just too sad... I can't believe I'm still seeing this) Show nested quote +Sambobly wrote: Talking about TLPD winrates. Since patch something like 74% winrate zvt. I'm quoting this so it can't be edited away. Now quoting ZvT international rates (yes all you non-Koreans are international, not Korea) from your own sourceTerran vs Zerg stat from TLPD May 2012 chart: Terran: 45.1%Zerg: 54.9%I'll stick up for what this guy said. wtf are you babbling about 74% winrate.
From his own source (a post in the thread quoted in the 'spoiler' toward the bottom of the first post):
to give a more accurate winrate of tvz after the patch:
[–]sheltered 27 points 7 hours ago*
I can give you TvZ from the GSL up and downs, the GSL qualifiers, and the GSTL if that helps?
There have been 112 games total played, Zerg have won 83 of them while Terran have won 29, giving Zergs about a 74% win rate.
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I still don't know why they made +2 range...
+1 range is undoubtly a huge buff to any unit (if you doubt it, look at what did roach and immortal buff), except maybe if you do it on sieged tanks or MotherShip.
So going +2 range without testing +1 rangte, I think they reallly want zerg to dominate a season of GSL (what is next ? marines with +2 range so terran win again ?(I would Loooooove to see how stupid it would be :D)
On June 20 2012 15:30 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:20 phiinix wrote:
I do feel the queen buff was strange considering that it seemed that most people felt it was the most balanced match up out of all of them.
It didn't look balanced at all when players like Ensnare, Supernova, or theSTC and the like beat Nestea/DRG.
Lol, I would have said : "it didn't looked balanced at all when players like virus and ensnare where staying in code S"
SuperNova ans theStc are good (I'm probably even mean with virus, he's not that bad :D).
Funfact : there will not be more zerg in this season in ro16 that there were in GSL october (you know one of the GomTvTvTvT season)
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On June 20 2012 15:58 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:55 Hypemeup wrote:On June 20 2012 15:52 sCCrooked wrote:i noticed that Terran cannot win against Zerg unless they are A LOT more skilled and better than their Zerg opponents. Stop flattering yourselves, this is absolutely false and its getting really annoying seeing it pop up everywhere. Terrans haven't figured out how to adjust yet is all. These things don't stay like this for very long because good players don't whine like all the common ladder people. They figure out ways to get past the "imba". Then again, maybe that's why they're pros and we're just scrubs. You realise that is a quote from MVP, the best player in the world by results? Good people dont whine? I guess you just ignore all the top korean Ts then haha. I say it again. Don't flatter yourself, you are not MVP and you do not face the Zergs that MVP faces. The chart shows below people able to use the utmost abilities and multi-tasking on this game, it does not affect them nearly as harshly or debateably, at all.
Just pointing out that what you said was a factually incorrect statement.
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remember how broken the collosi was once? thank god blizzard nerfed them
wait......
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And it's too funny to read this thread and tears because according to the interview of D. Kim (in Korean, sorry too lazy to translate), Terran was stronger in late game at the top level due to marines trading with Zerg's gas units. I guess a lot more tears will be shed for some time.
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EPT
