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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
Before the patch I was doing fine. I was playing 4 base terran vs 3 base zerg, actively denying his 4th. What would have happened? Well he still got this infestor/bl lategame mix out but I could have lost a couple of vikings before I was in peril. Gave it a 50/50 for me to win.
Now I just dont even know where to start. I am playing the same way(fast 3 OC gogo marine rangers) but I cant seem to find a place/time to do damage. The only time I win TvZ is when I attack around 8-9 minutes with BFH and lots of MM(without medivacs). Oh and because I need to do damage, I dont even take my 4th, which is pretty odd.
To all those who say try ghosts try ravens, please dont suggest units that are not worth their cost right now. You have to think about upgrades, infrastructure etc.
But Zerg, why dont you build hydras? But Protoss, why dont you build ranged Pheonix? They are the solution [...] please.
edit: I once tried 3 base into air. Oh boy did that turn out wrong. He only made brood/corruptor/infestor^^ Bcs/vikings aint got shit on that.
In the next game ill probably do some planetary fortress+turrets+siege tanks+vikings in a defendable position, and wait for him to come. I shall see if the opponent likes playing singleplayer.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I play Zerg and I think it is too strong. The ovie speed buff should already allow Zs to be prepared for whatever opening T has, so the Queen range seems excessive since it's also an early game, anti-harass opening buff. Many times my Queens save my ass when I'm not paying attention by just being able to DPS down hellions
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United States3648 Posts
On June 20 2012 14:54 VillageBC wrote:
This is terrible.
Zerg can hide behind a 6 queen wall
Terran can hide behind supply/rax/bunker wall
Protoss can hide behind a forge/gateway/cyber/canon wall
It's like every race now can make it past that early game and get into the mid/late game... =)
Except when one race has considerably weaker late game than the other two, you can't just hide behind your walls and expect success when you move out.
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I guess I just have to finish zergs before queens pop out.
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i am not a terran player but after watching a ton of pro games of tvz it does seem like zerg might be a little op right now but its really tough to say if its enough to change anything. players like puma and marineking showed some good builds at mlg that worked at times. with pumas mech build winning a bunch of games and marineking trading away units constantly but keeping his medicvacs alive i dont know if his micro makes this impossible for anyone else to follow though. i think 2 things that would slighty help would be to buff thors air range by 1 and to nerf greatpsire build time by 25 seconds and broodlord morph time by 5 seconds. this would give terran players a half a minute to prepare for broodlords as well making thors better vs bl infestor in the late game.
really i would love to see a roach nerf but i dont think a staple unit such as the marine roach stalker would ever be touched
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let me know when Terran isnt winning GSL anymore for next three seasons
then maybe ill reconsider nerfing queen.
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The latest progames I've seen was redbull. Sheth made alot of lings early. Stephano has said it's stupid to go mass queen post buff and he is by far the best non korean. From the games I've had time to watch this far nobody went overboard with queens or made no units. I play random I haven't made any more queens than before the patch. Some players used to go 4 queens long before the buff aswell. If they all do it. Just meta game their ass and collect free wins.
Personally I just miss the old ground attack animation =)
One imbalance I have noticed is that terrans basically have cornered the market on whining. If it isn't the queen buff it's the unbeatable protoss. I almost laughed my ass off recently when someone was complaining that tanks were weak. According to me it's the best unit in the game as long as it has sufficient support. Kinda makes me want terrans to experience some old school mass reaper as zerg or have their 200/200 army nerfed by emp's in the blink of an eye ^^
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well, look at some of the facts in the match-up.. no matter what Zerg late game army composition is going to be stronger then terrans.. unless you wanna try that raven bullshit.. but its not viable to make a unit that becomes viable 90 seconds later... its just stupid. Terran is stronger mid game when upgrades kick in and before zerg hits t3... this is where we want to aim to hit the 4th and deny some creep so we can hurt some of the mobility of zerg in the late-game and make tech switching impossible... as far as early game is concerned I can't see any timings work against zerg short of some 2 rax scv pull just because queens have a shit ton of hp and can heal.. and their dps is pretty fucking good especially after the patch... so really a'lot comes down to just trying to straight up win before the brood/infestor army comes... and ultras are pretty annoying as well.. giving zerg the room to take expansions and prepare for the death blow later on.. also insta killing planetaries.
Biggest issue is.. its almost a make or break point for terran at every timing... one thing goes wrong and the whole game goes to shit unless the zerg goes full retard. (sacs army with little reasoning and nothing to back it up-Broods)
Infestors reinforce this as well... they're a very fucking efficient unit... also a little thing to note.. the viking is literally about half as strong as the corrupter counter part.. and marines makes for a poor soft counter with infestors hard countering them.. unless you manage to get a perfect position.. but lets be reasonable.. any pro zerg wont let this happen. And please don't bring up ghost... they cost a shit ton and you need a'lot of them to make them work against infestors... and did i mention they have higher range with fungal then snipe?
they also have the luxury of taking advantage of terran in the late game with tech switching.. making it nigh impossible for us to have a strong mix... it's always going to be too lopsided one way.. for broods or for ultras. We just simply don't have a strong enough soft counter or that they just have too strong of a caster that prevents us from using them efficiently.
On some maps we can abuse mobility against broods hitting many places at once.. but on maps like cloud kingdom.. this is impossible as broods have quite a'lot of mobility here and moving ur blob around is just going to get u trapped.. oh.. and they have fungal..
so this about raps up some of the biggest issues i find with zerg.. I have 2 accounts in GM and I play terran... I still make many mistakes vs zerg so i'm focused on fixing those before I throw in the towel.. which wont be anytime soon : )
but here is some facts of the match-up you should all consider.. im off to bed so have a fun debate : )
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On June 20 2012 15:08 Wyk wrote:
Before the patch I was doing fine. I was playing 4 base terran vs 3 base zerg, actively denying his 4th. What would have happened? Well he still got this infestor/bl lategame mix out but I could have lost a couple of vikings before I was in peril. Gave it a 50/50 for me to win.
Now I just dont even know where to start. I am playing the same way(fast 3 OC gogo marine rangers) but I cant seem to find a place/time to do damage. The only time I win TvZ is when I attack around 8-9 minutes with BFH and lots of MM(without medivacs). Oh and because I need to do damage, I dont even take my 4th, which is pretty odd.
To all those who say try ghosts try ravens, please dont suggest units that are not worth their cost right now. You have to think about upgrades, infrastructure etc.
But Zerg, why dont you build hydras? But Protoss, why dont you build ranged Pheonix? They are the solution [...] please.
edit: I once tried 3 base into air. Oh boy did that turn out wrong. He only made brood/corruptor/infestor^^ Bcs/vikings aint got shit on that.
In the next game ill probably do some planetary fortress+turrets+siege tanks+vikings in a defendable position, and wait for him to come. I shall see if the opponent likes playing singleplayer.
No offense to you, but I don't think people are crying over YOUR losses on Battle.net. They're projecting to their Korean heros' performances with scant evidence.
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On June 20 2012 15:09 lichter wrote:
I play Zerg and I think it is too strong. The ovie speed buff should already allow Zs to be prepared for whatever opening T has, so the Queen range seems excessive since it's also an early game, anti-harass opening buff. Many times my Queens save my ass when I'm not paying attention by just being able to DPS down hellions
Any tips? You say it is too strong, but is there anything that Terrans do that just make you want to crush a puppy? (maybe too far :D)
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Rather terrans want to admit it or not, the queen buff still hasn't gone on long enough for a real representation of the six queen build being over-powered. Terran still do rather well in mid-game, and the six queens allow the terran to play just as greedy. The triple CC players like MKP does show that terran can have total dominance in the mid game (I'm thinking stephano vs mkp in the latest MLG). However, the late game for terran is what's lacking, which is what needs to be discussed. I think the ghost nerf should be reverted so terrans do better late.
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On June 20 2012 14:57 RedMage wrote:
If you read the thread you'd see people saying that the problem is that Terran late game is weaker than Protoss and Zerg. Before the Queen buff that wasn't an issue since Terrans could do enough damage early game, but now...
I did. I think Terran needs to look at their older(or invent new) openers to apply that pressure. The amount of pressure and reaction that a simple 2 hellions were able to prompt out of Zerg wasn't exactly balanced. There was no reason to do anything else for terran and now there is.
Besides, the number of Zergs advancing in tournaments don't really indicate it is necessarily over powered. But the Zergs that are doing well currently Symbol, Stephano and DRG were already destroying everyone pre-buff. For them perhaps, the buff might have been too much. The rest of us suck and need it. =)
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Isn't this whole discussion pointless? Wasn't the last patch pretty much the last patch for WoL? If they took so long to buff Protoss against 1/1/1, why do you think they'll even try to help out terrans, who they've nerfed pretty much every single patch since release. The only T buff I can remember is the seeker missile speed, which did nothing really. The buff is here to stay and terrans will have to deal with it until HoTS. I don't see Blizzard doing anything else except maybe nerf 5 queen range to 4 but that won't stop zergs from building 4-6 queens.
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On June 20 2012 15:02 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:00 Sambobly wrote:
Yes Queen range is now too strong. The winrates make that pretty bloody clear. But nothing is going to be done about it so why bother talking? Just admit defeat and close up shop until HOTS. What win rates? Surely not GSL code S.
Talking about TLPD winrates. Since patch something like 74% winrate zvt.
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Don't really understand how 2 extra range and a bit more energy is enough to change the match up so much that terran cant win? But then again i never understood how after every little patch people feel the need to complain that a certain race is op or even make a thread about it.
Just because you cant win the game outright with hellions anymore, doesnt mean there is no other ways. Anyway shouldnt this be in the balance discussion thread?
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I do feel the queen buff was strange considering that it seemed that most people felt it was the most balanced match up out of all of them.
I've been opening reactor since june of 2011. It's been over a year since this build was first introduced, and it's stuck around for so long because it's so safe against any 1 base aggression, not to mention it helps scout for any fe into aggression just from being by the ramp. It's clean, the timing is really nice, it transitions well into anything; from the terran pov without any regard to what zerg is doing, it's a clean build. Asking terrans to come up with something after they've been sticking to the same build for over a year is just hard. Not saying it can't be done, but reasonably, people choose this build for a reason. I personally think reaper openings are kinda cool, but unfortunately the queen buff also makes those terrible.
Imo terrans won't find another opening other than those that already exist, they'll find a different transition.
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Diamond Zerg player here I feel like we should treat the queen change as final and forever.
A few things that might help discussion into positive playstyle shifts.
1) is there any way to take advantage of a zerg that spent 900 mins and 12 supply on basically static defense? (double expand, tech to take advantage of lair/burrow delay, maybe a 900 mineral timing to kill the queens)
2) transitions once 3rd/4th goes up - it kills me a little inside when terrans add barracks 8-15 to increase production as they approach 3 base saturation, i think there might validity in adding say 2 factories, a starport and a second armory instead of instant remax with bio.
Any thoughts or replays of this different approach to the matchup?
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On June 20 2012 14:30 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 14:24 johnnywup wrote:
still too early to tell imo, terrans need to learn different openers besides hellions which they haven't really yet The Terran race has used some of the most innovative and diverse strategies and openers. Reaper openers, nerfed. All sort of Marine-Aggro 2Rax builds, nerfed Rax Build time/Bunker Build Time/Stim Timing. Banshee openers -> Quicker Spore Root. Hellion BF Nerf. Now a Queen buff to deal with as well. And keep in mind, these are just the opening builds that were affected. This isn't even including the Siege Tank nerfs, Ghost nerf, Thor nerf. I have to say with all the "Let the metagame play out, they'll learn out to adapt". Terrans have adapted many times throughout most of the patches to changes (read: Nerfs). But once anything that is remotely even decent is found, it's nerfed into the ground.
This post says it all, any opener or build that was effective for terran has been nerfed.
Next to that we see a lot of terrans trying to open differently now, from very fast cc's to more gas heavy plays like banshee hellion. When they open the greedy way they can always get punished by a zerg all in, or even zerg pressure while the zerg just drones behind it. I feel the queen range has not only affected the queens damage and survivability of the zerg. Next to that the map presence during the early and mid game has been boosted, allowing the zerg to have a really good creep spread giving vision and map control so that any terran midgame push is a lot weaker, therefor a terran will have a harder time denying the zerg's eco and is forced into the late game, where Terran will have a disadvantage due to the superior eco of the zerg, and their very strong lategame compositions and ability to switch between them.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On June 20 2012 15:13 rufflesQueso wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:09 lichter wrote:
I play Zerg and I think it is too strong. The ovie speed buff should already allow Zs to be prepared for whatever opening T has, so the Queen range seems excessive since it's also an early game, anti-harass opening buff. Many times my Queens save my ass when I'm not paying attention by just being able to DPS down hellions Any tips? You say it is too strong, but is there anything that Terrans do that just make you want to crush a puppy? (maybe too far :D)
To be honest I don't think it has really changed the meta-game that drastically; it has only made it easier for Zs to defend. Queens get to attack 1 or 2 more times compared to before and no longer need to walk around and be stutter step attack micro'd as much, but that's about it. It's in conjunction with the ovie speed buff that makes it so strong, because now I can easily sim city well before the hellions arrive, or position my ovies so I know when to block ramps with Queens. The Queen range buff only makes a big difference when I can position my Queens correctly to stop the harass.
So my suggestion... uhm... deny scouting? :p
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Cursed makes a great analysis.
Terran does struggle lategame. Blizzard acknowledges this, but they also acknowledge Terran has a strong early-midgame. Im not saying its impossible to beat Zerg, i want to raise the question of whether Terran early-midgame pushes are being to easily stomped because of Creep and the mass droning due to queen defense. Im not talking about early-midgame pushes being denied, im saying they are getting CRUSHEd to pieces.
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