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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 20 2012 15:17 Sambobly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:02 usethis2 wrote:On June 20 2012 15:00 Sambobly wrote:
Yes Queen range is now too strong. The winrates make that pretty bloody clear. But nothing is going to be done about it so why bother talking? Just admit defeat and close up shop until HOTS. What win rates? Surely not GSL code S. Talking about TLPD winrates. Since patch something like 74% winrate zvt.
Oh yeah those weeklies or Gigabyte/Asus things no one really cares or watches. (Be honest) It's not like people are going to scream "Whoa, he won that weekly tournament, he must be the best player in the world!" Those are the players who are often discounted when a foreigner happens to beat them in foreign events.
Picking and choosing the stats that are convenient for your agenda = distasteful
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On June 20 2012 15:17 Sambobly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:02 usethis2 wrote:On June 20 2012 15:00 Sambobly wrote:
Yes Queen range is now too strong. The winrates make that pretty bloody clear. But nothing is going to be done about it so why bother talking? Just admit defeat and close up shop until HOTS. What win rates? Surely not GSL code S. Talking about TLPD winrates. Since patch something like 74% winrate zvt.
The TLPD link is on the front page right now showing ZvT at 55%/45% with a margin of error of 3%.
Did you really just post that the TLPD is at 75% for Zerg?
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Terran lategame is not really weaker than zerg lategame.
However it is 1000x harder to achieve terran lategame than it is to achieve zerg lategame.
Terran needs to stay on bio/tank all day to even survive, while the zerg can get their lategame and roll face
think about this terran lategame army
6 BC 36
4 thor 24
6 raven 12
10 tank 30
19 vikings 38
3 planetary fortresses at each expansion to defend ling runbys
thats 140food. terran can hang with 60scv's lategame thanks to 2 orbitals/ mules (while the rest of the CC's would be used to put 3 planetarys at each expansion)
i think you would be hard pressed to find a 140food zerg army that trades nicely with that army as long as MKP is controlling the army and makes sure to spread the vikings to avoid fungals.
also while using that army the trick is you would want to keep your tanks out of siegemode and hotkey all the thors and tanks into one hotkey, then in battle your micro is to quickly launch 6 hunter seeker missiles at broodlords/corrupters, then you launch 6 yamatos on the ultralisks, then you press your tank/thor hotkey and you actually focus fire ultralisks with the tank/thors
by doing that the corrupters should die quickly to hsm/vikings, while the battlecruisers attack and clean up broodlings
and tanks/thors not in siege mode actually RIP ULTRAS apart and they have 7range for nice focus fire. im assuming a perfect endgame zerg army has both ultras AND broods AND infestors. well if your let your thors and tanks waste shots on broodlings you can lose the battle, but if you actually hotkey your tanks and thors and focus fire the ultras they literally die in 1-2 seconds a piece and that lets you clean up the ultras quickly
then during this battle once you notice all the broodlords/corrupters are dead you quickly CTRL+click a viking, press groundmode, then re-select your tanks/thors and focus fire the remaining ultralisks
id be interested if there exists a 140pop zerg army that can combat that 140pop terran army equally
problem is the zerg proceedes to remax in 50 seconds with several extra 200food armies and then the terran gets rolled over
anyway long story short if terran HAD A WAY to safely get their lategame that wasnt suicide and low economy compared to the zerg, they could be good
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the actual issue I have with the queen buff is that before the patch, Zerg was already sort of fine vs Terran and struggled with Protoss. Now the change benefits Zerg quite a bit vs Terran while having a much smaller impact vs Protoss (amongst other things, guardian shield completely nullifies queens). So I wouldn't mind see the change reverted if they change something which helps a bit less vs Terran and a bit more vs Protoss (speaking about small things here).
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On June 20 2012 15:20 phiinix wrote:
I do feel the queen buff was strange considering that it seemed that most people felt it was the most balanced match up out of all of them.
It didn't look balanced at all when players like Ensnare, Supernova, or theSTC and the like beat Nestea/DRG.
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On June 20 2012 15:23 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:13 rufflesQueso wrote:On June 20 2012 15:09 lichter wrote:
I play Zerg and I think it is too strong. The ovie speed buff should already allow Zs to be prepared for whatever opening T has, so the Queen range seems excessive since it's also an early game, anti-harass opening buff. Many times my Queens save my ass when I'm not paying attention by just being able to DPS down hellions Any tips? You say it is too strong, but is there anything that Terrans do that just make you want to crush a puppy? (maybe too far :D) To be honest I don't think it has really changed the meta-game that drastically; it has only made it easier for Zs to defend. Queens get to attack 1 or 2 more times compared to before and no longer need to walk around and be stutter step attack micro'd as much, but that's about it. It's in conjunction with the ovie speed buff that makes it so strong, because now I can easily sim city well before the hellions arrive, or position my ovies so I know when to block ramps with Queens. The Queen range buff only makes a big difference when I can position my Queens correctly to stop the harass. So my suggestion... uhm... deny scouting? :p
That is.... better than nothing >_>;;
Will be tough to stop Superman Ovies from flying all over my base, but not impossible. Ah well~ XD
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It looks like Blizzard wants all the match ups to go to the late game, long macro wars. I love this idea but Terrans really have no viable T3 units like the other races....units that make you go "oh shit, I'm going to have to do something to deal with that or I'll be in big trouble" Broodlords, Infestors, Ultras, Colossi, and HT. With the current game design, terrans need to push their early and midgame advantage to have a chance at the late game. Blizzard has pretty much killed that concept in TvZ.
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On June 20 2012 15:30 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:20 phiinix wrote:
I do feel the queen buff was strange considering that it seemed that most people felt it was the most balanced match up out of all of them.
It didn't look balanced at all when players like Ensnare, Supernova, or theSTC and the like beat Nestea/DRG.
Yes, because your favorite players have to win every time or else the game is broken?
TheSTC vs DRG for example, DRG just made unnecessarily risky pushes and the general consensus was that he didn't play his best that day.
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I just use bio pushes. The queen buff never affected me tbh because I never really liked hellions anyway
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Add a poll into the OP. Would be interesting to see everybody's opinions. In my opinion at least, obviously you don't have to. XD
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I just a want to point something i posted in similar threads from terran players about tvp.
Threads about how supposedly "UP" terran is keep reincarnating in the Sc2 General section. One after another. And while this keeps going on i see almost no atention or dedication to threads in Strat section to work about how to break the Z or P builds, how to improve the gameplay, and find holes in the T opposition.
Check this thread as an example:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894
This is not thread about a mere builds. This is a debate about how to beat certain meta on the match up in question, analysis of every part of a game, from the scout to the single slightest pressure, benchmarks about certain targets, posible pressure and so.
Please, help yourselves and stop posting here. Go, and post there:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346410
This will make you improve much more. And if the game is really imbalanced, blizz will prolly gonna buff T like they did with Z in 2010 and with P in 2011.
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On June 20 2012 15:30 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:20 phiinix wrote:
I do feel the queen buff was strange considering that it seemed that most people felt it was the most balanced match up out of all of them.
It didn't look balanced at all when players like Ensnare, Supernova, or theSTC and the like beat Nestea/DRG.
So it doesn't look balance because xxx beat so-and-so?
This was an incredibly stupid thing to say. Those players are all very good--- you are not giving them credit. They might not win as much as NesTea/DRG, but they still can take games off of them. You don't always beat players you are better than in this game, and it's not necessarily a balance issue: just take a look at ladder on the Korean server, nobody has 80%+ win-ratio in Korea.
Otherwise, I guess the game isn't balance since Moon beat Byun + MKP in the GSTL right? (as much as I love Moon from his WC3 days), or how Yugioh beat MKP in May for GSL 2-1?
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On June 20 2012 15:30 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:20 phiinix wrote:
I do feel the queen buff was strange considering that it seemed that most people felt it was the most balanced match up out of all of them.
It didn't look balanced at all when players like Ensnare, Supernova, or theSTC and the like beat Nestea/DRG.
DRG played bad vs TheSTC, what the hell is your point? That a player lost to someone who can be considered "worse"? If that is the case Z and P are broken as hell in BW since Flash has only has a 70 winratio.
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On June 20 2012 15:34 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:30 usethis2 wrote:On June 20 2012 15:20 phiinix wrote:
I do feel the queen buff was strange considering that it seemed that most people felt it was the most balanced match up out of all of them.
It didn't look balanced at all when players like Ensnare, Supernova, or theSTC and the like beat Nestea/DRG. Yes, because your favorite players have to win every time or else the game is broken? TheSTC vs DRG for example, DRG just made unnecessarily risky pushes and the general consensus was that he didn't play his best that day.
No I'm talking about why a certain race has players who tend to over-achieve (and disappear sooner or later) when another race's players usually under-achieve but persist over time.
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I think people should talk a bit less about the past, what happened before is fairly irrelevant. As it is right now, I do think that EVERY option that Terran had early game has been nerfed. I don't see why they buff some of the units like the reaper, give that now Queens will shit all over them. Essentially, instead of trying to buff Zerg early game, they spent all of the previous patches nerfing Terran Early game, and this time they buff Zerg enough, that almost all of the previous changes can probably be reverted.
Also, I think Terran should be given a late-game buff, and Infestors a fungal nerf coupled with a neural buff. Terran late game is pretty poor as it is, the only army it can make that can really compete is something like mass BC, but as seen in Squirtle vs MVP, even that gets destroyed. The problem with Infestors is that Fungal Growth is just too strong, and the rest of the abilities are so much weaker. I think they should change the focus of Infestors, so that Fungal's aren't the only thing that matters. I think the having Neural at longer range like it was before led to a lot of nice Infestor micro situation, and now it's just a matter of fungaling a bunch of units, which takes a lot less micro. Plus Mass Fungal pretty much tears apart any kind of air army, which I think is a bad design.
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On June 20 2012 14:40 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 14:28 lavit2099 wrote:
Terrans aren't trying new things. They're doing the same builds now as they were months ago, against Z and P. It seems like with changes, the other two races try to adapt and do new things while Terrans are sitting back and trying to force the older things to work (complain about 2 hellions not giving you map control and creep denial, for instance).
changes are not nurfes. Honestly i cant remember a single P or Z nerf since khaldarin amulet.
You have a pretty lousy memory then. Ever heard of Infestor fungal damage nerf + neural range nerf? That was a huge nerf for Z and forced people to completely change the way they played against P. The muta play developed as a result.
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On June 20 2012 15:38 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:34 Bagi wrote:On June 20 2012 15:30 usethis2 wrote:On June 20 2012 15:20 phiinix wrote:
I do feel the queen buff was strange considering that it seemed that most people felt it was the most balanced match up out of all of them.
It didn't look balanced at all when players like Ensnare, Supernova, or theSTC and the like beat Nestea/DRG. Yes, because your favorite players have to win every time or else the game is broken? TheSTC vs DRG for example, DRG just made unnecessarily risky pushes and the general consensus was that he didn't play his best that day. No I'm talking about why a certain race has players who tend to over-achieve (and disappear sooner or later) when another race's players usually under-achieve but persist over time.
Might have been true a year ago, but in the context of the last patch (the post you quoted first) there is absolutely no proof of this.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On June 20 2012 15:38 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:34 Bagi wrote:On June 20 2012 15:30 usethis2 wrote:On June 20 2012 15:20 phiinix wrote:
I do feel the queen buff was strange considering that it seemed that most people felt it was the most balanced match up out of all of them.
It didn't look balanced at all when players like Ensnare, Supernova, or theSTC and the like beat Nestea/DRG. Yes, because your favorite players have to win every time or else the game is broken? TheSTC vs DRG for example, DRG just made unnecessarily risky pushes and the general consensus was that he didn't play his best that day. No I'm talking about why a certain race has players who tend to over-achieve (and disappear sooner or later) when another race's players usually under-achieve but persist over time.
Ensnare disappeared before the patch
Supernova is next in line for Nestea award, as far as I remember
STC still doing pretty good
You should have given better examples :p
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When all Terran players like:
MVP
MMA
MarineKing
Polt
Dragon
Have all complained about the TvZ matchup its time for Blizzard to take a look at it.
Before this latest patch I had NEVER complained about balance, not once. Because I felt the match ups were still FUN to play. However the way Terran has to play against Zerg now is just frustrating makes the game a whole lot less fun to play. When I started losing to diamond level Zergs after being high master and GM every season I want to cry.
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Well, I apologise for giving misleading information. To be more specific, I thought the Korean TLPD winrates for the month of May post patch were along the lines of 74% zvt. Having checked I cannot find the post where they analysed the games from only after the patch (which landed on May 10/11). The winrate I should have referred to is the 61-39 in korean zvt for that month.
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EPT
