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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
You see some new players getting into code S and kind of makes you wonder if they're "over-achieving" for what they're really capable of. Most of them have been Terrans and most of them still are. Protoss not so much but there have been quite a few of those "next Protoss Bonjwa" or whatever.
Zergs have been the only race that it's hard for anyone to over-achieve with, as far as I remember. But sure they sometimes under-achieve, mostly because they were successfully duped by T/P's strats. Queen buff was obviously aimed to fix such so that skilled Z players do have a better chance against hard-to-scout strats.
I do think creep spread is a bit too much these days but I can't tell whether it's due 100% to queen buff or not. Even if queen buff is reverted, top Z's will continue to improve their creep spread.
Sorry, OP. You wrote alot but the same has been repeated by so many people here even BEFORE the patch was implemented, yet I only see 2 Zergs (Nestea and Symbol) advanced to RO16 so far. And neither of them were particularly looked OP. (No Symbol hype train, thank you, he is kind of like a juiced-up Leenock of a year ago and yes he learns quick and moves his mouse quick, but once he panicks or is matched with true masters in BoX he will be crushed)
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The point of this discussion is that assuming Zerg has an undeniably stronger lategame than Terran, Terran can choose to attack and damage Zerg early. However, with the new queens, zerg seems like they can defend early attacks a little bit too easily without much Risk in making queens. I want to know what things terran can do EARLY to counter this queen strategy or if anyone can think of anything. I already know there are triple orbital builds that exist.
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stop saying, that terran should just come up with something. every time they do it just gets nerfed to hell (see ghost). it's simply not worth it to even try and develop anything new really.
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1) If Zerg makes 4-6 queens early game, they can defend all current forms of early game pressure from Terran. This is quite painful from a Terran's perspective because they can just drone-drone-drone with confidence. Queens are fucking good unit, Zergs need to admit this.
IMMvp interview from GSL Code S Ro32. :/
Before the match, you said that the six queen build is very strong
IMMvp: I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything.
I know it is horrible to listen to a single person, but this man is the most bad-ass motherfucken Terran out there.
2) Risk: slower lair. Tons of rewards.
3) Creep spread is god damn scary these days. As soon as I move out, half the map is covered in creep. Queen buff gave the Zergs more incentive to produce them -> more creep.
I really want Zerg to help Terrans out by telling us what kinds of builds they feel most scared going up against. As it is right now, TvZ feels really really hopeless. If you compare it to the other match-up that we bitch about (TvP), this one feels hopeless. TvP is do-able, at least.
For shits and giggles:
The balance talks of Starcraft 2 is hot these days, as a TvZ master, what do you think about Terran nowadays and the TvZ/P matchup?
SlayerSMMA: (laughs) Do you want "official talks" or real stuff? (Interviewer: anything you want.) Then I have to say the latest changes are really balance breaking.
xD ohh MMA, can you be any more handsome?
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I really feel like writing an article.
FFS Queen range is not OP.
Terran does not have a low pressure late-game transition << THIS IS THE PROBLEM RIGHT HERE
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I don't think the queen buff is too bad, it takes away much of the randomness of zerg openers. I guess I like it in the big picture.
Terran lategame and the lack of it is the core of the problem. I guess the band-aid fix would be to remove the queen buff and then re-introduce it with HOTS.
Oh, and I can promise you that this isn't one of those things that just gets "figured out". Terrans have complained before many times before but still done decently enough to keep up their winrates with minor tweaks. Never before has the race plummeted so badly in tournaments. Its time for a change.
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its hard to get a discussion if the op is completely biased and statements are completely one-sided. it is ok that you present your argument, but putting a poll here makes no sense at all. i think creep is op..
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This is terrible.
Zerg can hide behind a 6 queen wall
Terran can hide behind supply/rax/bunker wall
Protoss can hide behind a forge/gateway/cyber/canon wall
It's like every race now can make it past that early game and get into the mid/late game... =)
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On June 20 2012 14:46 SyrZulu wrote:
The point of this discussion is that assuming Zerg has an undeniably stronger lategame than Terran, Terran can choose to attack and damage Zerg early. However, with the new queens, zerg seems like they can defend early attacks a little bit too easily without much Risk in making queens. I want to know what things terran can do EARLY to counter this queen strategy or if anyone can think of anything. I already know there are triple orbital builds that exist.
There's something fundamentally flawed in the game if you can't use a pressure-build against another race without it becoming an All-In. Playing as greedy as the Zerg really isn't a solution. Especially since Terran lacks the safety that Zerg has when they play greedy.
On June 20 2012 14:49 rufflesQueso wrote:
1) If Zerg makes 4-6 queens early game, they can defend all current forms of early game pressure from Terran. This is quite painful from a Terran's perspective because they can just drone-drone-drone with confidence. Queens are fucking good unit, Zergs need to admit this.
3) Creep spread is god damn scary these days. As soon as I move out, half the map is covered in creep. Queen buff gave the Zergs more incentive to produce them -> more creep.
I'm not sure why the Queen's range buff needs to remain anymore. Zergs have learned how good it is to have a nice creep spread, and the type of information and advantage it can provide. Mixed with the Overlord speed and they have an insanely good amount of map awareness.
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On June 20 2012 14:54 VillageBC wrote:
This is terrible.
Zerg can hide behind a 6 queen wall
Terran can hide behind supply/rax/bunker wall
Protoss can hide behind a forge/gateway/cyber/canon wall
It's like every race now can make it past that early game and get into the mid/late game... =)
If you read the thread you'd see people saying that the problem is that Terran late game is weaker than Protoss and Zerg. Before the Queen buff that wasn't an issue since Terrans could do enough damage early game, but now...
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And so many tears have been shed over GSL code S, yet no one mentions how many Z's have passed the Ro32 post-patch? Where do OP gets the data? Or is he simply stating his "gut-feeling"?
With two more groups to go,
Terran: Out of 13, 5 made into Ro16
Protoss: Out of 10, 5 made into Ro16
Zerg: Out of 9, 2 made into Ro16
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_S#Group_Stage_.28Ro32.29
So at most there will be 5 Zergs in Ro16, or 2 at worst. It's such an hypocrisy when people bring up GSL stats whenever they suit their agenda. I personally don't think GSL can be THE barometer of balance because of 50% of the matches are decided by builds and mind games rather than executions, but a lot of people seem to shed tears over their races' representation so I'm just throwing it out there.
By the time it reaches Ro8 and there is one Z left, the table will turn and Z will start crying rivers. These knee-jerk reactions need to stop.
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On June 20 2012 14:24 johnnywup wrote:
still too early to tell imo, terrans need to learn different openers besides hellions which they haven't really yet
Terrans need to learn different openers? Like what exactly? We're seeing out the back side of WoL, if the pros who've spent all this time refining openers in TvZ, chances are there aren't many viable ones left. This comment seems really quite ignorant to me. This kind of comment reminds of people who talk about the Raven being this 'undiscovered' unit yet refuse to understand why professional players opt not to use them.
The truth is, Terran only had one opener that is semi-economically viable whilst letting you harass and that's the reactor hellion. This opening has consequently been nerfed into the ground just like the reaper was many times over.
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You address risk vs reward. You don't find it silly the risk vs reward building 2 or 4 hellions gave to the terrans before the buff? You're also not obligated to go reactor hellion, it just happened to be way too beneficial, which Blizz fixed.
Terrans need to learn different openers? Like what exactly?
Well it seems terrans have mostly been continuing with the hellion opening, which obviously isn't working. Instead of being stubborn, try to find a solution. Morrow has been doing 2 rax pressure for example, which used to be very popular. It only stopped because hellions gave a much bigger reward.
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Yes Queen range is now too strong. The winrates make that pretty bloody clear. But nothing is going to be done about it so why bother talking? Just admit defeat and close up shop until HOTS.
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Blizzard is being heavy-handed with their balance work. David Kim should just go bye-bye. He has an incentive to change things to look like he's doing his job well. It's not good for the game long-term, it's diluting it.
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On June 20 2012 14:58 usethis2 wrote:And so many tears have been shed over GSL code S, yet no one mentions how many Z's have passed the Ro32 post-patch? Where do OP gets the data? Or is he simply stating his "gut-feeling"? With two more groups to go, Terran: Out of 13, 5 made into Ro16 Protoss: Out of 10, 5 made into Ro16 Zerg: Out of 9, 2 made into Ro16 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_S#Group_Stage_.28Ro32.29So at most there will be 5 Zergs in Ro16, or 2 at worst. It's such an hypocrisy when people bring up GSL stats whenever they suit their agenda. I personally don't think GSL can be THE barometer of balance because of 50% of the matches are decided by builds and mind games rather than executions, but a lot of people seem to shed tears over their races' representation so I'm just throwing it out there. By the time it reaches Ro8 and there is one Z left, the table will turn and Z will start crying rivers. These knee-jerk reactions need to stop.
I doubt zergs will be using any stats from GSL to cry about balance for this season as the very easy retort is to bring up the GSTL stats.
Well it seems terrans have mostly been continuing with the hellion opening, which obviously isn't working. Instead of being stubborn, try to find a solution. Morrow has been doing 2 rax pressure for example, which used to be very popular. It only stopped because hellions gave a much bigger reward.
That fell out of fashion because with the current map pool it is terrible and will not pay off unless it is the all in proxy version or the zerg has no arms to play the game with.
And Terrans are still doing reactor hellion openings? Are we not watching the same game?
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On June 20 2012 15:00 Sambobly wrote:
Yes Queen range is now too strong. The winrates make that pretty bloody clear. But nothing is going to be done about it so why bother talking? Just admit defeat and close up shop until HOTS.
What win rates? Surely not GSL code S.
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On June 20 2012 15:00 Zenbrez wrote:
You address risk vs reward. You don't find it silly the risk vs reward building 2 or 4 hellions gave to the terrans before the buff? You're also not obligated to go reactor hellion, it just happened to be way too beneficial, which Blizz fixed.
Hellions were good before the patch and they still give map control even now. The map control is the main reason hellions are still used today. Before the patch, going hellions means your more susceptible to roach pressures. Also, building hellions means less marines, less tech. That is the trade-off. The point im trying to make with queens is that they dont require larvae. you can still drone all you want.
I know i talked about reactor hellion a lot, but i didnt' mean to make it sound like queens are really strong against reactor hellions, im trying to say that queens are strong against EVERYTHING early, not only hellions.
As for GSL Code S Zergs, i am stricly speaking about TvZ, not ZvP, not ZvZ.
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On June 20 2012 15:00 Zenbrez wrote:You address risk vs reward. You don't find it silly the risk vs reward building 2 or 4 hellions gave to the terrans before the buff? You're also not obligated to go reactor hellion, it just happened to be way too beneficial, which Blizz fixed. Well it seems terrans have mostly been continuing with the hellion opening, which obviously isn't working. Instead of being stubborn, try to find a solution. Morrow has been doing 2 rax pressure for example, which used to be very popular. It only stopped because hellions gave a much bigger reward.
I've been thinking something similar. It may be time for Terrans to abandon 1-rax FE for the quickest economy and go for low pressure into expansion.
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EPT
