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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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sevia
United States954 Posts
On June 20 2012 16:14 TheAngryZergling wrote: Given the # of zergs in the Ro16 code S I'd say no. At Dreamhack, there were five protoss in the round of eight, so protoss is obviously overpowered. Look at how easy it is to make up useless bullshit claims! Regardless of how you feel about the issue, results from any individual tournament mean absolutely nothing. | ||
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andropopp
United States88 Posts
blizzard thought a 2food ghost unloading 400damage near instantly was overpowered lategame TvZ, fine blizzard thinks a 2food ghost unloading 200damage in seconds is balanced, fine whats not fine is its impossible to actually micro properly to unload that damage since its now 1click for 25 damage.... near useless give ghosts a super snipe or something that automatically launches as many snipes as the ghost can fire, with smartcasting that uses less snipes to prevent overkill so if a ghost has 200energy and it supersnipes a broodlord, it will launch 8 snipes dealing 200 damage, then if another ghost snipes the broodlord it will launch 2 snipes dealing 50 damage because the broodlord has 26hp and only needs 2 snipes to die if snipe was changed to be like that, i could live with the damage nerf | ||
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ErrorNA
United States86 Posts
1. 2 queens means 300 minerals, that is another hatchery. could be a third base or something of that sort and queens have a very similar role to spine crawlers. they are defensive. If he is investing that much into queens with no gas, why not grab a faster third base? faster upgrades, why not play greedy? No one is forcing you to do 2 base aggression. One of the most popular terran builds is the 1 reactor factory and 1 starport for banshees with a very quick third base. without queens that build is extremely strong. even with queens the zerg is safe from the harassment but cannot punish a terran being very greedy and have a lot of queens. 2. I am finally glad that late game ravens are being used. Ravens with hunter seeker and PDD are extremely strong vs slow broodlords and corruptors. if terrans transition better into the late game , with air upgrades and a split map switch to raven/viking and whatever other gas intensive units. (i would like to see some ghosts, they are the most supply efficient harassment unit, and can shut down infestors.) This will sound bad, but you sir are tunnel visioned. Terran has a stacked late game. I hope i do not need to talk about the mid game where terran dominates. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On June 20 2012 14:58 usethis2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + And so many tears have been shed over GSL code S, yet no one mentions how many Z's have passed the Ro32 post-patch? Where do OP gets the data? Or is he simply stating his "gut-feeling"? With two more groups to go, Terran: Out of 13, 5 made into Ro16 Protoss: Out of 10, 5 made into Ro16 Zerg: Out of 9, 2 made into Ro16 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_S#Group_Stage_.28Ro32.29 So at most there will be 5 Zergs in Ro16, or 2 at worst. It's such an hypocrisy when people bring up GSL stats whenever they suit their agenda. I personally don't think GSL can be THE barometer of balance because of 50% of the matches are decided by builds and mind games rather than executions, but a lot of people seem to shed tears over their races' representation so I'm just throwing it out there. By the time it reaches Ro8 and there is one Z left, the table will turn and Z will start crying rivers. These knee-jerk reactions need to stop. So much misinformation in this post. Firstly, you say 2/9 of Z got through but you neglect to point out (although you assume it) that 3/9 Z have not played yet. So, this is not a Z win rate but pointing out the schedule of the event. Secondly, there have been 6 ZvT matches in the GSL, 2 to 4 wins. It's pretty close, and map score is extremely close Z=7vT=8. Nestea 2 > 0 TheSTC SuHoSin 1 < 2 Mvp SuHoSin 0 < 2 Happy Sniper 1 < 2 Supernova Yugioh 1 < 2 MKP Symbol 2 > 0 MKP There were also 7 ZvP matches, 4 to 3. And the map scores are P=11 and Z=7. Seed 2 > 0 Curious Hero 1 < 2 Curious Seed 2 > 0 Curious Creator 1 < 2 Nestea MC 2 > 0 Sniper Parting 1 < 2 Symbol Parting 2 >1 Yugioh What this shows is that the MU's seem pretty even still in the GSL and that Protoss has actually played more games against Z (In fact, only SuHoSin was eliminated by only terrans and Curious was eliminated by only Protoss). Furthermore, if you watched the games, you'd know that SuHoSin, Sniper and Yugioh all massively blundered in the spotlight (especially Sniper who rallied unit after unit through an enemy army). So, if anything, I would wait to see the results of more GSL before talking about the TvZ MU. Yet, as you point out, the Potential to have 5/9 Z advance, while not actualized, is actually pretty damn good for Z and not a reason to cry rivers. | ||
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Positronic
121 Posts
On June 20 2012 16:23 andropopp wrote: ghosts need some kind of super snipe blizzard thought a 2food ghost unloading 400damage near instantly was overpowered lategame TvZ, fine blizzard thinks a 2food ghost unloading 200damage in seconds is balanced, fine whats not fine is its impossible to actually micro properly to unload that damage since its now 1click for 25 damage.... near useless give ghosts a super snipe or something that automatically launches as many snipes as the ghost can fire, with smartcasting that uses less snipes to prevent overkill so if a ghost has 200energy and it supersnipes a broodlord, it will launch 8 snipes dealing 200 damage, then if another ghost snipes the broodlord it will launch 2 snipes dealing 50 damage because the broodlord has 26hp and only needs 2 snipes to die if snipe was changed to be like that, i could live with the damage nerf Can a maxed energy snipe shoot something like a hadouken? I'd really enjoy that. | ||
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_Book
United States51 Posts
Now, i am a Terran player (not good at all only high platinum playing diamonds occasionally) but maybe we are unexplored just a bit. We have been using the reactor hellion build for about a year now IIRC, and it is hard to leave something you are so used to, but it seems like we have to. One thing i've seen pop up more is pure bio, and tankless bio mech builds on the strategy section. And i think its awesome that we are SLOWLY finding ways to deal with the quick thirds, and fast hives with these unique builds. Look at the Demuslim build for example, its main objective is to kill a fast third from the zerg, and you know what? If you do it right that is exactly what you will do which obviously makes the mid game longer giving us Terrans our place to shine. That is one example of a build coming into play recently that is doing quite a bit of damage to the current zerg quick third fast hive meta-game. Now let's talk about pure bio. Its nice(once again in my opinion as a crap Terran player), its mobile, can drop multiple places and still stim forward and kill creep tumors because for pure bio you do need a lot of medivacs to deal with infestors. It is also a very hard style of play to pull off. What do we have with pure bio though? A huge bank of gas! Now, what can we do with that gas? One suggestion is to add in ravens in the late game, like the SK Terran style from Brood War. What about transitioning into a COMPLETELY different style of play though? We have a bank of gas, and with the pure bio style we SHOULD be expanding rapidly. What if we transition into pure mech or sky terran after doing damage with our bio based play? We have the gas, and we should have the expansions to do so. This may sound like complete and total crap, but maybe it only works because im in platinum but i have experimented with that. Going from pure bio slowly into bio mech then into pure mech. It does not actually take that long. We have the factory, and the armory for the starport and the bio upgrades respectively. Why not after doing some drops and damage and creep killing with bio, start making hellions? We can afford it with our third. We can start +1 vehicle weapons, and even another armory for +1 vehicle armor. Stop the medivac production and start another factory for BFH and then come out of the bio play and start siege tanks and thors. You may say "BUT WE ALREADY HAVE UPGRADES FOR BIO" Yeah, we do. But we also have the gas bank, the expansions to support such a transition and medivacs for BF hellions drops to keep the zerg in their base. It works for me, it may work for you. Zergs tend to scout once with an Overlord and thats to see what is coming their way, mech, bio, bio mech, or an all-in. This can and will take advantage of that and catch the Zerg off guard. Like i said, I am a shit platinum Terran player so maybe that is why this works. But maybe not. Maybe it does have some potential. Either way, its too early to tell and our race is still unexplored just like the other two. Opener wise, no maybe dont have that many options but I think we still have options in the mid game that can give us better positions in the late game that we have yet to explore and whining wont help us find those options. | ||
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gengka
Malaysia461 Posts
So, here is my idea, feel free to discuss about it, all kinds of assaults are welcomed too, you can't bring me down  Basically i think this just forcing us terrans to revert back to one of the ancient build: the Kane Build, we will need helionn (more than the normal 4 helions) and some marauders with concussion shell, all these for the early harassment squad, if the zerg going for queen's build. Hopefully this will force zergs to make more units to defend, before they can start to move out and spread their creep and take their 3rd. If the harassment goes too well and make some decent damages, this might even force the zergs to desperately make Muta's and banes, which the terran needs to scout and make appropriate reactions (thors, marines or tanks) The only problem i foresee is, this will cost much more than just 4 helions, (marauders are no cheap units, and they are quite slow either) not sure about the impact on the timings and economy of Terran. | ||
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Noruxas
Netherlands129 Posts
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dynn
United States17 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
i just hope TSL4 and HomeStory Cup5 get some more terran players <.< so Goody fighting! (and i would not mind MVP deciding to win a korean qualifier) | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On June 20 2012 16:25 Positronic wrote: Can a maxed energy snipe shoot something like a hadouken? I'd really enjoy that. Metsu-Hadouken FTW | ||
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Fubi
2228 Posts
On June 20 2012 16:28 dynn wrote: Kinda like how Zergs should of used their brains pre-Queen buff instead of relying on the buff right?terran still fine! they have mules and marines, the thing is that terrans dont want to use his brain, just like the easy way to win games, (hellions push, banshee harras, bunker rush,etc) its time to use ur brain as a terran, do new openings! | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Marauders may be the key here because of their relative long range for a Tier1 unit, as well as their slow. | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On June 20 2012 16:27 gengka wrote: Had enough of those people laughing at us lower level terran players, saying we are not pro but scrubs because we will just whine but not thinking on how to overcome to recent changes (by the way, how come only T needs to be always battling with the changes of the patches?) So, here is my idea, feel free to discuss about it, all kinds of assaults are welcomed too, you can't bring me down Basically i think this just forcing us terrans to revert back to one of the ancient build: the Kane Build, we will need helionn (more than the normal 4 helions) and some marauders with concussion shell, all these for the early harassment squad, if the zerg going for queen's build. Hopefully this will force zergs to make more units to defend, before they can start to move out and spread their creep and take their 3rd. If the harassment goes too well and make some decent damages, this might even force the zergs to desperately make Muta's and banes, which the terran needs to scout and make appropriate reactions (thors, marines or tanks) The only problem i foresee is, this will cost much more than just 4 helions, (marauders are no cheap units, and they are quite slow either) not sure about the impact on the timings and economy of Terran. Completely false. I do sympathize with ladder terrans and foreigner terrans. But that's NOT what this thread has been about. And I am sure you wouldn't base your win/loss or whatever hardship you experience on ladder on the balance situation in GSL. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On June 20 2012 16:27 gengka wrote: Had enough of those people laughing at us lower level terran players, saying we are not pro but scrubs because we will just whine but not thinking on how to overcome to recent changes (by the way, how come only T needs to be always battling with the changes of the patches?) So, here is my idea, feel free to discuss about it, all kinds of assaults are welcomed too, you can't bring me down Basically i think this just forcing us terrans to revert back to one of the ancient build: the Kane Build, we will need helionn (more than the normal 4 helions) and some marauders with concussion shell, all these for the early harassment squad, if the zerg going for queen's build. Hopefully this will force zergs to make more units to defend, before they can start to move out and spread their creep and take their 3rd. If the harassment goes too well and make some decent damages, this might even force the zergs to desperately make Muta's and banes, which the terran needs to scout and make appropriate reactions (thors, marines or tanks) The only problem i foresee is, this will cost much more than just 4 helions, (marauders are no cheap units, and they are quite slow either) not sure about the impact on the timings and economy of Terran. Ive done too many late marine openers tell you how much i hate fast mutas Second, queen buff also made them stronger against marauder hellion Third, who the fuck goes banelings against marauder hellion? Ling Queen Spine all the way. You're better off doing ForGGs hellion banshee build but even with that build he dies to fast mutas sometimes. | ||
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SyrZulu
80 Posts
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Positronic
121 Posts
On June 20 2012 16:24 ErrorNA wrote: I have read the post and cannot believe what is included. 1. 2 queens means 300 minerals, that is another hatchery. could be a third base or something of that sort and queens have a very similar role to spine crawlers. they are defensive. If he is investing that much into queens with no gas, why not grab a faster third base? faster upgrades, why not play greedy? No one is forcing you to do 2 base aggression. One of the most popular terran builds is the 1 reactor factory and 1 starport for banshees with a very quick third base. without queens that build is extremely strong. even with queens the zerg is safe from the harassment but cannot punish a terran being very greedy and have a lot of queens. 2. I am finally glad that late game ravens are being used. Ravens with hunter seeker and PDD are extremely strong vs slow broodlords and corruptors. if terrans transition better into the late game , with air upgrades and a split map switch to raven/viking and whatever other gas intensive units. (i would like to see some ghosts, they are the most supply efficient harassment unit, and can shut down infestors.) This will sound bad, but you sir are tunnel visioned. Terran has a stacked late game. I hope i do not need to talk about the mid game where terran dominates. You're implying that Hunter Seeker is an "extremely strong" spell vs a composition which has arguably the most potent spellcaster in the game as backup (Infestor) with arguably the most powerful spell in the game (Fungal Growth) which outranges it by a large margin. I'm curious how you can explain to Terrans how to use their Ravens when it's either a complete suicide mission for +90% of them to get off Hunter Seekers most of the time or they get fungal growth'd then have to waste a ton of energy of PDDs to not die from mass corruptors. You're right, this does sound bad. | ||
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SyrZulu
80 Posts
On June 20 2012 16:25 _Book wrote: Maybe it is too strong, maybe it isn't. I feel as if one month isnt enough to judge if its OP or not. Yeah, the win rates TvZ in GSTL have not been great, but they have not been that bad so far in Code S (imo). Maybe its because mind games and strategies based on a players weaknesses come into play. We don't know yet. Now, i am a Terran player (not good at all only high platinum playing diamonds occasionally) but maybe we are unexplored just a bit. We have been using the reactor hellion build for about a year now IIRC, and it is hard to leave something you are so used to, but it seems like we have to. One thing i've seen pop up more is pure bio, and tankless bio mech builds on the strategy section. And i think its awesome that we are SLOWLY finding ways to deal with the quick thirds, and fast hives with these unique builds. Look at the Demuslim build for example, its main objective is to kill a fast third from the zerg, and you know what? If you do it right that is exactly what you will do which obviously makes the mid game longer giving us Terrans our place to shine. That is one example of a build coming into play recently that is doing quite a bit of damage to the current zerg quick third fast hive meta-game. Now let's talk about pure bio. Its nice(once again in my opinion as a crap Terran player), its mobile, can drop multiple places and still stim forward and kill creep tumors because for pure bio you do need a lot of medivacs to deal with infestors. It is also a very hard style of play to pull off. What do we have with pure bio though? A huge bank of gas! Now, what can we do with that gas? One suggestion is to add in ravens in the late game, like the SK Terran style from Brood War. What about transitioning into a COMPLETELY different style of play though? We have a bank of gas, and with the pure bio style we SHOULD be expanding rapidly. What if we transition into pure mech or sky terran after doing damage with our bio based play? We have the gas, and we should have the expansions to do so. This may sound like complete and total crap, but maybe it only works because im in platinum but i have experimented with that. Going from pure bio slowly into bio mech then into pure mech. It does not actually take that long. We have the factory, and the armory for the starport and the bio upgrades respectively. Why not after doing some drops and damage and creep killing with bio, start making hellions? We can afford it with our third. We can start +1 vehicle weapons, and even another armory for +1 vehicle armor. Stop the medivac production and start another factory for BFH and then come out of the bio play and start siege tanks and thors. You may say "BUT WE ALREADY HAVE UPGRADES FOR BIO" Yeah, we do. But we also have the gas bank, the expansions to support such a transition and medivacs for BF hellions drops to keep the zerg in their base. It works for me, it may work for you. Zergs tend to scout once with an Overlord and thats to see what is coming their way, mech, bio, bio mech, or an all-in. This can and will take advantage of that and catch the Zerg off guard. Like i said, I am a shit platinum Terran player so maybe that is why this works. But maybe not. Maybe it does have some potential. Either way, its too early to tell and our race is still unexplored just like the other two. Opener wise, no maybe dont have that many options but I think we still have options in the mid game that can give us better positions in the late game that we have yet to explore and whining wont help us find those options. Pure Bio has definitely been popping up more recently everywhere. Mainly MarineKing has been using it to great recent success as he always retains his medivacs and trades efficiently with his bio. Eventually he has enough medivacs to make lings and fungals less efficient than his bio units and he wins. As for transitions, raven sounds interesting but fungal outranges Hunter Seeker, so it is not really viable in high level play where zergs will always chain fungal. This is unless you go ghost first for emp. Recently, MvP Dream in the GeSL tournament went pure Bio against zergs and transitioned into mass ghost play with nuking the map as well as emp for infestors . The ghosts also bank energy so maybe snipe would be more usefull? anyways yes pure bio is a new style popping up against Zerg that looks viable | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On June 20 2012 16:32 Positronic wrote: You're implying that Hunter Seeker is an "extremely strong" spell vs a composition which has arguably the most potent spellcaster in the game as backup (Infestor) with arguably the most powerful spell in the game (Fungal Growth) which outranges it by a large margin. I'm curious how you can explain to Terrans how to use their Ravens when it's either a complete suicide mission for +90% of them to get off Hunter Seekers most of the time or they get fungal growth'd then have to waste a ton of energy of PDDs to not die from mass corruptors. You're right, this does sound bad. Its for broodlords mate. Ive seen people go double tech starports instead of a single reactor with a fast third to get out banshee ravens and all the like for map control while still having a decent medevac count if they wanted to. And no you arent supposed to completely rely on ravens, they just help with the situation. Obviously you are going to have tanks marines and thors supporting them. | ||
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RyF
Austria508 Posts
blizz should just give queens there 3 range back and evrything would be fine for now. | ||
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