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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 20 2012 16:22 sevia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 16:14 TheAngryZergling wrote:
Given the # of zergs in the Ro16 code S I'd say no. At Dreamhack, there were five protoss in the round of eight, so protoss is obviously overpowered. Look at how easy it is to make up useless bullshit claims! Regardless of how you feel about the issue, results from any individual tournament mean absolutely nothing.
What point are you trying to make with your example exactly? Zergs doing bad and Protoss doing well in tournaments aren't mutually exclusive.
On June 20 2012 16:35 RyF wrote:
even forgg loosing against random european zergs on his stream. how can this even be possible? forgg is S-Class player?
blizz should just give queens there 3 range back and evrything would be fine for now.
No?
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On June 20 2012 16:22 sevia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 16:14 TheAngryZergling wrote:
Given the # of zergs in the Ro16 code S I'd say no. At Dreamhack, there were five protoss in the round of eight, so protoss is obviously overpowered. Look at how easy it is to make up useless bullshit claims! Regardless of how you feel about the issue, results from any individual tournament mean absolutely nothing.
Exactly. And this whole thread is based on the OP's "gut feeling", nothing less.
Please close this thread or merge with the designated balance thread. As anyone can tell, there is nothing new in the OP that hasn't been talked about elsewhere.
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Well, protoss is the most weakest at early game.
Anybody watched dreamhack? Firstly in stephano vs keen was shown how good hellions still are. Like 10 hellion kiled + 30 drones.
And about bio. Every single bio vs zerg game that was casted bio won. I understand that its hard but if you have skill you can do it.
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On June 20 2012 16:24 ErrorNA wrote:
I have read the post and cannot believe what is included.
1. 2 queens means 300 minerals, that is another hatchery. could be a third base or something of that sort and queens have a very similar role to spine crawlers. they are defensive. If he is investing that much into queens with no gas, why not grab a faster third base? faster upgrades, why not play greedy? No one is forcing you to do 2 base aggression. One of the most popular terran builds is the 1 reactor factory and 1 starport for banshees with a very quick third base. without queens that build is extremely strong. even with queens the zerg is safe from the harassment but cannot punish a terran being very greedy and have a lot of queens.
If Terran's strength is in the early-midgame, why would i play for the lategame (strategically speaking)? Just because you make Queens shouldnt mean that i have to play for the lategame where you, the zerg, has an advantage over me. Fast Thirds are very good but they allow Zerg to sit back and drone even more. The zerg can just counter the counter so to speak and grab a quick 4th and inturn a 5th as well. Then it comes down to a Terran push before BLords hit.
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If you see the winrates for Z after the latest patch I'd say yes. I can't see why they threw 2 extra range on the queen. Maybe 1 would've been better. As other mentioned, they are getting good against things that wasn't intended.
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On June 20 2012 16:35 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 16:32 Positronic wrote:On June 20 2012 16:24 ErrorNA wrote:
I have read the post and cannot believe what is included.
1. 2 queens means 300 minerals, that is another hatchery. could be a third base or something of that sort and queens have a very similar role to spine crawlers. they are defensive. If he is investing that much into queens with no gas, why not grab a faster third base? faster upgrades, why not play greedy? No one is forcing you to do 2 base aggression. One of the most popular terran builds is the 1 reactor factory and 1 starport for banshees with a very quick third base. without queens that build is extremely strong. even with queens the zerg is safe from the harassment but cannot punish a terran being very greedy and have a lot of queens.
2. I am finally glad that late game ravens are being used. Ravens with hunter seeker and PDD are extremely strong vs slow broodlords and corruptors. if terrans transition better into the late game , with air upgrades and a split map switch to raven/viking and whatever other gas intensive units. (i would like to see some ghosts, they are the most supply efficient harassment unit, and can shut down infestors.)
This will sound bad, but you sir are tunnel visioned. Terran has a stacked late game.
I hope i do not need to talk about the mid game where terran dominates. You're implying that Hunter Seeker is an "extremely strong" spell vs a composition which has arguably the most potent spellcaster in the game as backup (Infestor) with arguably the most powerful spell in the game (Fungal Growth) which outranges it by a large margin. I'm curious how you can explain to Terrans how to use their Ravens when it's either a complete suicide mission for +90% of them to get off Hunter Seekers most of the time or they get fungal growth'd then have to waste a ton of energy of PDDs to not die from mass corruptors. You're right, this does sound bad. Its for broodlords mate. Ive seen people go double tech starports instead of a single reactor with a fast third to get out banshee ravens and all the like for map control while still having a decent medevac count if they wanted to. And no you arent supposed to completely rely on ravens, they just help with the situation. Obviously you are going to have tanks marines and thors supporting them.
I never said you should go mass raven, or that you shouldn't have anything else. Obviously ravens are for broodlords? It's not a zergling counter=P
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When DRG, DRG and MMA all say that TvZ has become imba since the last changes, I don't think there's much to argue about. People saying Terran needs to come up with new stuff is ridicolous, terran is like THE race that comes up with new shit all the time, yet it gets nerfed soon after (see; ghost, dumbest nerf ever, was super cool with ghost openings etc in TVT yet they had to nerf it across the board instead of versus massive only).
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On June 20 2012 16:38 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
Well, protoss is the most weakest at early game.
Anybody watched dreamhack? Firstly in stephano vs keen was shown how good hellions still are. Like 10 hellion kiled + 30 drones.
And about bio. Every single bio vs zerg game that was casted bio won. I understand that its hard but if you have skill you can do it.
Either you're exaggerating or you're just stupid... I saw plenty of bio games where it lost. Why make shit up?
If you wanna talk about Dreamhack, then why not mention the fact that 3 Terrans were in the RO16, and none in the RO8?
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On June 20 2012 16:39 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 16:24 ErrorNA wrote:
I have read the post and cannot believe what is included.
1. 2 queens means 300 minerals, that is another hatchery. could be a third base or something of that sort and queens have a very similar role to spine crawlers. they are defensive. If he is investing that much into queens with no gas, why not grab a faster third base? faster upgrades, why not play greedy? No one is forcing you to do 2 base aggression. One of the most popular terran builds is the 1 reactor factory and 1 starport for banshees with a very quick third base. without queens that build is extremely strong. even with queens the zerg is safe from the harassment but cannot punish a terran being very greedy and have a lot of queens.
If Terran's strength is in the early-midgame, why would i play for the lategame (strategically speaking)? Just because you make Queens shouldnt mean that i have to play for the lategame where you, the zerg, has an advantage over me. Fast Thirds are very good but they allow Zerg to sit back and drone even more. The zerg can just counter the counter so to speak and grab a quick 4th and inturn a 5th as well. Then it comes down to a Terran push before BLords hit.
Who said you're going for just the late game? 6 queens is 3 hatcheries for them to defend 2 base. You could easily get a fast third, secure it with a bunker, and instantly aim for a mid game slam with your buff economy. The zerg delays his lair AND his third hatchery by pumping 6 queens.
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On June 20 2012 15:52 WardenSC wrote:
Watchig MKP vs Symbol in GSL earlier today made me realize how sad TvZ has become. Ask any pro T or Z about where the balance skews in TvZ currently. I've read some interviews of supernova and mma where supernova says "TvZ is impossible these days, in practice I win about 20~30% of the time". And MMA was recently interviewed in StarsWar 7 where he was quoted as saying "the latest changes are really balance breaking".
Hopefully David listens to the PROS instead of implementing whatever he feels like.
two zerg have moved past their code s groups, you sure you want to use that example?
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On June 20 2012 14:57 RedMage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 14:54 VillageBC wrote:
This is terrible.
Zerg can hide behind a 6 queen wall
Terran can hide behind supply/rax/bunker wall
Protoss can hide behind a forge/gateway/cyber/canon wall
It's like every race now can make it past that early game and get into the mid/late game... =) If you read the thread you'd see people saying that the problem is that Terran late game is weaker than Protoss and Zerg. Before the Queen buff that wasn't an issue since Terrans could do enough damage early game, but now...
So..wait..The solution is not to re-fubar the Zerg early game, but fix Terran late game? Brilliant!
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On June 20 2012 16:35 RyF wrote:
even forgg loosing against random european zergs on his stream. how can this even be possible? forgg is S-Class player?
blizz should just give queens there 3 range back and evrything would be fine for now.
What I saw, mostly they was not some random zerg, they was well known players. And its funny when forgg does not lose to us zergs but lose to eu zerg 
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On June 20 2012 16:47 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:52 WardenSC wrote:
Watchig MKP vs Symbol in GSL earlier today made me realize how sad TvZ has become. Ask any pro T or Z about where the balance skews in TvZ currently. I've read some interviews of supernova and mma where supernova says "TvZ is impossible these days, in practice I win about 20~30% of the time". And MMA was recently interviewed in StarsWar 7 where he was quoted as saying "the latest changes are really balance breaking".
Hopefully David listens to the PROS instead of implementing whatever he feels like.
two zerg have moved past their code s groups, you sure you want to use that example?
You neglect to look at the role the other races play in group advancement. Z has played more games against P than T. But if you want to provide a counterexample from SuHoSin, Sniper or Yugioh, the games Z lost against T, go ahead.
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On June 20 2012 16:34 SyrZulu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 16:25 _Book wrote:
Maybe it is too strong, maybe it isn't. I feel as if one month isnt enough to judge if its OP or not. Yeah, the win rates TvZ in GSTL have not been great, but they have not been that bad so far in Code S (imo). Maybe its because mind games and strategies based on a players weaknesses come into play. We don't know yet.
Now, i am a Terran player (not good at all only high platinum playing diamonds occasionally) but maybe we are unexplored just a bit. We have been using the reactor hellion build for about a year now IIRC, and it is hard to leave something you are so used to, but it seems like we have to.
One thing i've seen pop up more is pure bio, and tankless bio mech builds on the strategy section. And i think its awesome that we are SLOWLY finding ways to deal with the quick thirds, and fast hives with these unique builds. Look at the Demuslim build for example, its main objective is to kill a fast third from the zerg, and you know what? If you do it right that is exactly what you will do which obviously makes the mid game longer giving us Terrans our place to shine.
That is one example of a build coming into play recently that is doing quite a bit of damage to the current zerg quick third fast hive meta-game.
Now let's talk about pure bio. Its nice(once again in my opinion as a crap Terran player), its mobile, can drop multiple places and still stim forward and kill creep tumors because for pure bio you do need a lot of medivacs to deal with infestors. It is also a very hard style of play to pull off. What do we have with pure bio though? A huge bank of gas! Now, what can we do with that gas?
One suggestion is to add in ravens in the late game, like the SK Terran style from Brood War. What about transitioning into a COMPLETELY different style of play though? We have a bank of gas, and with the pure bio style we SHOULD be expanding rapidly. What if we transition into pure mech or sky terran after doing damage with our bio based play? We have the gas, and we should have the expansions to do so.
This may sound like complete and total crap, but maybe it only works because im in platinum but i have experimented with that. Going from pure bio slowly into bio mech then into pure mech. It does not actually take that long. We have the factory, and the armory for the starport and the bio upgrades respectively. Why not after doing some drops and damage and creep killing with bio, start making hellions? We can afford it with our third. We can start +1 vehicle weapons, and even another armory for +1 vehicle armor. Stop the medivac production and start another factory for BFH and then come out of the bio play and start siege tanks and thors.
You may say "BUT WE ALREADY HAVE UPGRADES FOR BIO" Yeah, we do. But we also have the gas bank, the expansions to support such a transition and medivacs for BF hellions drops to keep the zerg in their base. It works for me, it may work for you. Zergs tend to scout once with an Overlord and thats to see what is coming their way, mech, bio, bio mech, or an all-in. This can and will take advantage of that and catch the Zerg off guard.
Like i said, I am a shit platinum Terran player so maybe that is why this works. But maybe not. Maybe it does have some potential. Either way, its too early to tell and our race is still unexplored just like the other two. Opener wise, no maybe dont have that many options but I think we still have options in the mid game that can give us better positions in the late game that we have yet to explore and whining wont help us find those options. Pure Bio has definitely been popping up more recently everywhere. Mainly MarineKing has been using it to great recent success as he always retains his medivacs and trades efficiently with his bio. Eventually he has enough medivacs to make lings and fungals less efficient than his bio units and he wins. As for transitions, raven sounds interesting but fungal outranges Hunter Seeker, so it is not really viable in high level play where zergs will always chain fungal. This is unless you go ghost first for emp. Recently, MvP Dream in the GeSL tournament went pure Bio against zergs and transitioned into mass ghost play with nuking the map as well as emp for infestors . The ghosts also bank energy so maybe snipe would be more usefull? anyways yes pure bio is a new style popping up against Zerg that looks viable
I feel it is viable, and it seems like a hard type of play style to deal with.
Now, that MVP Dream comment is awesome. I was shocked to see ghosts back in the TvZ match up. It proves that terran is still unexplored in the mid to late game. There is still much we can do and have not done yet.
I hope Blizzard does not revert the queen range too quickly because i would like to see something close to the bio into bio mech and then finally into pure mech transitions i was talking about.
Pure bio has that bank to do so, and the expansions to do it, as i said earlier.
And to your raven comment, that is true. But who said we HAVE to use HSM? Auto-Turrets are a nice form of harassment and they prevent mining from an expansion for a while because of how long they last. Throw a few of them down at one base, or maybe in one base and in the drones escape route to pick a few off would be very annoying and something for the zergs to deal with. Why not drop at the same time? Drop one location and drop auto-turrets everywhere in another.
Its still something that is too unexplored to say that the queen range buff is OP when we have yet to fully explore our mid and late game to its fullest potential.
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On June 20 2012 16:52 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 16:35 RyF wrote:
even forgg loosing against random european zergs on his stream. how can this even be possible? forgg is S-Class player?
blizz should just give queens there 3 range back and evrything would be fine for now. What I saw, mostly they was not some random zerg, they was well known players. And its funny when forgg does not lose to us zergs but lose to eu zerg
ForGG loses to US Zergs as well...?
I remember him saying "zerg op" or "queens op" after fitzy beat him a few times for instance.
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I think it's slightly overpowered, but it looks heavily OP because of how hard it is to adjust in SC2.
Whenever a very powerful build or style of play comes out, it takes a while to adjust because of how stubborn SC2 players are. When Protoss deathball was rampaging everything, us Zs had been doing a certain style so long, it felt like nothing else could work because we didn't know any alternate styles. Same with 1/1/1 vs P. Same with Muta/Ling vP, same with Ling/Infestor vT, etc, etc.
I think Terrans, for now, just have to accept that early aggression isn't the same anymore, and you have to explore mid game options. I think the MKP style of mass mass medivacs is a very strong style, but is very micro dependent. I also think Ravens haven;t been explored enough in the late game.
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On June 20 2012 14:30 Eps wrote:Reaper openers, nerfed. All sort of Marine-Aggro 2Rax builds, nerfed Rax Build time/Bunker Build Time/Stim Timing. Banshee openers -> Quicker Spore Root. Hellion BF Nerf. Now a Queen buff to deal with as well.
And keep in mind, these are just the opening builds that were affected. This isn't even including the Siege Tank nerfs, Ghost nerf, Thor nerf. here's why I stopped playing 18 months ago. Balance seemed horrible, and the string of nerfs since seems to back that up. Things might be balanced now (I wouldn't know) but it sure as hell didn't feel like it then, but saying so would cause someone to chop your dick off.
Not that anyone cares, but the list of nerfs makes the me from 18 months ago feel a little better
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I made an experiment:
TvZ vs Very Hard Blizzards I.A. As you all shoud know,IA,goes for 1 base all ins 2 times till minute 12.I tried 6 queens and succesfully defended the first bio push of MM,not losing a single Queen,because of Transfuse.Range 5 has changed things a lot,this wasnt possible befeore,because Queen must move to do damage on marines...
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TvZ seemed very balanced before the patch. Maybe Terran had a few too many options for allin or semi-cheese builds, but overlord speed increase alone would have helped a lot with that. Combining it with the Queen buff seems to be too much, since every single Terran seems to have no clue what to do anymore TvZ. Without the power of early game propelling Terran into a good mid/late game they just get overwhelmed. By the time they take a strong position on the map, Zerg is maxed with 80 drones, is teching to hive and the creep is already closing in on the 3th/4th base on most maps.
Now maybe there are some terran builds that would work vs modern Zerg styles, but it's hard to imagine what those would look like. The reason Hellions are so popular in the matchup is that without pressure early on, it is simply impossible to beat a top-level Zerg on some maps. There macro is too good and Zerg production + Hive-tech is simply unbeatable for Terran if they cannot hinder the Zerg a bit early on, and the queen-range has really hindered the option to do so. And it's not like Terrans haven't tried anything else. You know they are desperate when they open with with double banshee + raven type builds
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On June 20 2012 16:24 ErrorNA wrote:
I have read the post and cannot believe what is included.
1. 2 queens means 300 minerals, that is another hatchery. could be a third base or something of that sort and queens have a very similar role to spine crawlers. they are defensive. If he is investing that much into queens with no gas, why not grab a faster third base? faster upgrades, why not play greedy? No one is forcing you to do 2 base aggression. One of the most popular terran builds is the 1 reactor factory and 1 starport for banshees with a very quick third base. without queens that build is extremely strong. even with queens the zerg is safe from the harassment but cannot punish a terran being very greedy and have a lot of queens.
2. I am finally glad that late game ravens are being used. Ravens with hunter seeker and PDD are extremely strong vs slow broodlords and corruptors. if terrans transition better into the late game , with air upgrades and a split map switch to raven/viking and whatever other gas intensive units. (i would like to see some ghosts, they are the most supply efficient harassment unit, and can shut down infestors.)
This will sound bad, but you sir are tunnel visioned. Terran has a stacked late game.
I hope i do not need to talk about the mid game where terran dominates.
this .. you can play as greedy as you want since there si nothing queens can do against that
Also the problem with the creep .... GET A FUCKING RAVEN ... zergs try to tell that terrans since 2 years - you have overgas anyway and you have also already a techlab on the starport for banshees. Why cant you just build a raven and deny the creepspread completely instead of whining on forums that you have to burn X Scans to clean up the creep when you push which sets you economically even further behind.
Watch Morrows play against Zergs (he as T) since he does all the things that annoys the crap out of zergs (since he plays zerg).
And also the situation hasnt changed since one month (still the same builds), so clearly terrans havent adepted yet (besides of maybe qxc and morrow who actually put a few thoughts into that regard).
And also you cant really expect to have complete map control, the possibility to kill XX drones, deny creep and see zerg all ins when leaving their base and be alerted ... and all that for 400 minerals.
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EPT
