EPTI think the answer here is no. A problem has been fixed.
1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
I think the answer here is no. A problem has been fixed. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
Most Zergs in the current phase went for the fast double evolution chamber and following things worked well even against well controlled hellions: - make 1 additional queen and move it along the spinecrawler to gain space & allow creepspread - make 4-6 roaches to gain space and allow mapcontrol I understand that you should not be forced to react in only 1 way by any means, because that will lead to your opponent having an advantage over you just for the reason he doesn't have to scout to actually know what you have to do. Now we have a queen range buff with not just 4, but 5 range. Hellions have 6 range with their splash attack, but they can only attack targets in the range of 5. If Zergs want to creepspread, they still have to make the additional queen, but it takes no effort at all to drive away the hellions which should never happen in a game on high level. Hellions are still strong to gain and hold mapcontrol, but they are not good anymore to prevent creep spreading, because they can't deny the queens. Before the nerf, the absolute map control and threat hellions granted Terran often led to powerful timings that are hard to scout for Zerg, now Zerg has the option to gain space and thus sneak out zerglings and gain information (in addition faster overlords) to spot incoming timings. Zerg never had a problem with not being able to defend allins, but with getting information to know they have to defend. As Terran, a one who likes to macro I feel I have no option against Zerg right now. A good zerg will always be able to get a 3rd base relatively easy and more secure/faster than before. In addition to that, faster overlords usually lead to an ability to scout even though thats something a Terran could possibly deny, but still Zerg has a very good option to gain information and set up for possible timings now. Not just mapcontrol and denying creep is harder, but also hitting crucial timings. How am I supposed to stop Zerg if I cannot put hurt on his economy. Once infestors hit the field, a good Zerg will have enough lings and options to spot and clear drops cost-efficient and even if not - the main attack can be defended or stalled cost-efficient / long enough. I for my part, often choose to macro against it because I've learned the hard way, infestors are a defensive unit and it doesn't work to push them if you are no MMA with a multitasking like him. Ofcourse thats my own fault, but back to the macro. I often still have map presence with hellions and that "before nerf" timing-push towards the 3rd. I can't kill it now, but I can still show myself on the map. While doing that, I can set up my 3rd and possibly even 4th base while upgrading. That would put me in an advantageous position over Zerg one would think, but the truth is, it really doesn't. 3 fully saturated bases with ~75-80 workers will be near the amount of maximum saturation / income for Zerg. A 4th base would only mean a few more larvae and gasincome. While this is good, the Zerg can easily max out and get high tech units even on 3 bases, delaying his 4th base. While I can also get all my stuff, I feel that the Zerg hits a more dangerous army composition while he is building up, which should never happen or better spoken which Terran should never let happen. Due to the increased information and defensive ability of Zerg, now Terrans cannot pressure and pick apart Zerg "AS EASILY" as before, if at all... Once Zerg has established a good infestor count which isn't too hard, because they only spend gas on upgrades rather than on anything else, your options to push him without a good tank count is very limited... once ultralisks hit the field, you have to be defensive. Zerg will nearly ALWAYS be ahead on upgrades, so... right now, I feel Zerg is a tad to save and can play careless while Terran has to be spot on with everything, while still trying to be greedy. I'm not saying TvZ is unplayable by any means, but it certainly became very tricky and very hard by now. | ||
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SyrZulu
80 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:23 AkkiB wrote: So instead of trying something new all terran has done is cry about the buff. I'm sorry that Terran can no longer dominate the early game and win with hellions or a marine push. Im not saying that Terran is supposed to WIN with hellions or marine pressure. Not at all. To make it clear, it is not impossible, but just much harder to put pressure on a Zerg who opens with 4-6 queens. It seems like every pressure terran has in its arsenal is denied by queens easily without much further reaction from zerg (aka forcing lings or spines) | ||
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BerkmanZ
United States56 Posts
As far as late game goes, Terran needs a new strategy. + Show Spoiler + I think Terrans are whiny babies. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:28 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: So now that the matches on GSL / Ladder seem almost perfectly balanced according to GSL and Blizzard stats, a /terran/ player is wondering if maybe it's out of wack. I think the answer here is no. A problem has been fixed. MLG TvZ 40%, Dreamhack TvZ 40%, TSL Korean qualifier (128 best Korean players) TvZ 40% | ||
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Tenken
United States17 Posts
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ColdSky
Finland25 Posts
On June 20 2012 15:12 Haustka wrote: let me know when Terran isnt winning GSL anymore for next three seasons then maybe ill reconsider nerfing queen. And who are you, lol :D? | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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Sambobly
Australia241 Posts
On June 20 2012 16:00 Duka08 wrote: From his own source (a post in the thread quoted in the 'spoiler' toward the bottom of the first post): Oh THANK YOU! I knew I wasn't just making it up! | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On June 20 2012 15:52 WardenSC wrote: That is surely the worst example ever.Watchig MKP vs Symbol in GSL earlier today made me realize how sad TvZ has become. Ask any pro T or Z about where the balance skews in TvZ currently. I've read some interviews of supernova and mma where supernova says "TvZ is impossible these days, in practice I win about 20~30% of the time". And MMA was recently interviewed in StarsWar 7 where he was quoted as saying "the latest changes are really balance breaking". Hopefully David listens to the PROS instead of implementing whatever he feels like. In game 2, the queen buff had no effect at all, 2 failed all ins against each other, followed by another all in vs greedy play. (guess which one won...) In game 1 essentially, mkp pushed and lost almost his whole army because of superb army control (abusing the fact that only 1 medivac was around by blocking the entire army with zerglings so banelings could explode.) After that, mkp was just ripped apart. Symbol's mutitasking was way superior to mkp's later in the game. I personally think that a buff 3 to 4 would have been better. But i don't know. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:40 Yorbon wrote: That is surely the worst example ever. In game 2, the queen buff had no effect at all, 2 failed all ins against each other, followed by another all in vs greedy play. (guess which one won...) In game 1 essentially, mkp pushed and lost almost his whole army because of superb army control (abusing the fact that only 1 medivac was around by blocking the entire army with zerglings so banelings could explode.) After that, mkp was just ripped apart. Symbol's mutitasking was way superior to mkp's later in the game. I personally think that a buff 3 to 4 would have been better. But i don't know. You forgot the part where MKP sniped lair and they both were on 2bases and equal supply. | ||
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SpeakNow
Australia16 Posts
Maby a nub nub question but why do terran not add in more Marauders when they decide to push? If your pushing into 6 queen army with bunch of lings. Few marauders with marine support crush that no?? | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:47 SpeakNow wrote: I head a unit called "Marauder" is pretty good against queens?? Pretty good unit in general! Maby a nub nub question but why do terran not add in more Marauders when they decide to push? If your pushing into 6 queen army with bunch of lings. Few marauders with marine support crush that no?? Queens aren't armored, marauders suck against them. | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
Also, queens have two attacks don't they? An early +1 armour if going mech might make sense for early pressure. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:28 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: So now that the matches on GSL / Ladder seem almost perfectly balanced according to GSL and Blizzard stats, a /terran/ player is wondering if maybe it's out of wack. I think the answer here is no. A problem has been fixed. Erm, it was close to balanced pre-patch. See TvZ ladder stats according to David Kim: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332618 And GSL TvZ stats pre-patch (although some games are post patch): http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/2678_2012_GSL_S2_Code_A (16-15 TvZ) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/2620_2012_GSL_S2_Code_S (16-15 TvZ) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/2578_2012_GSL_S1_Up-Down (5-9 TvZ) Compare with TvZ stats post patch: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/2867_2012_GSTL_Season_2 (3-12 TvZ) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/2839_2012_GSL_S2_Up-Down (3-11 TvZ) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/2896_2012_GSL_S3_Code_S (ok this one's a bit more balanced) I don't know where you're coming up with the idea that the game is now perfectly balanced when it was more perfectly balanced pre-patch. The results will look even more atrocious if I add Dreamhack, MLG, GESL and TSL qualifiers. | ||
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bOneSeven
Romania685 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:47 SpeakNow wrote: I head a unit called "Marauder" is pretty good against queens?? Pretty good unit in general! Maby a nub nub question but why do terran not add in more Marauders when they decide to push? If your pushing into 6 queen army with bunch of lings. Few marauders with marine support crush that no?? Illusion kept doing this against IdrA. Constant fail, and I was not impressed by IdrA's play as much as I was by Illusion's ( was wathin both streams at the same time ). The other guy who said "bad example mkp mma"...Are you disagreeing with MMA who trains at least 8 hours a day when he says 20-30% wr ? LOL - Who by the way, MMA looked beyond godlike in tvz b4 the patch | ||
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andropopp
United States88 Posts
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On June 20 2012 16:44 sereniity wrote: Either you're exaggerating or you're just stupid... I saw plenty of bio games where it lost. Why make shit up? If you wanna talk about Dreamhack, then why not mention the fact that 3 Terrans were in the RO16, and none in the RO8? Which is still more then previous Code S for zergs yet somehow everyone is now claiming it was balanced. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On June 20 2012 17:40 Yorbon wrote: In game 1 essentially, mkp pushed and lost almost his whole army because of superb army control (abusing the fact that only 1 medivac was around by blocking the entire army with zerglings so banelings could explode.) After that, mkp was just ripped apart. mkp was on creep that wouldn't have been there if blizz didn't buff queens, and the buff didn't have any effect on the game? | ||
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OnFire
324 Posts
You are talking from a perspective of how Terrans played before the patch... I think Terran definitely has to play differently now. 15CC is the new standard, and I think playing greedily is the best way Terran can play at the moment. I like the queen change so far because now Terran is much more reliant on having a strong build order, and being able to follow it without misstakes, instead of just relying entirely on Hellions to get into the midgame. The patch was needed because TvZ was getting extremely stagnant, Hellion openings were simply better in almost every single way then any other opening and this is obviously bad for strategy. Having 15CC be the new standard is good, because theres a huge amount of build orders viable afterwards. From my experience, midgame pushes, atleast in the oldschool kind-of-way, are no longer viable and approaching TvZ with a more turtley state of mind seems to be the way to go. If you watch Flash's games against Soulkey from the showmatch tourney at MLG, I think he's got the right idea. He played a very passive style and only pushed when he knew he had to. Mech is also on the uprise. Thor/Raven compositions in the lategame are ridiculously good... ultra lategame armies composed of 50/50 Thor/raven is probably the strongest army a Terran can get against Zerg. WIll write more later... | ||
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