EPT1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Dundron2000
Sweden1140 Posts
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dde
Canada796 Posts
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:54 Dundron2000 wrote: terran need to adapt, you cant go reactor hellion every game anymore. why not pressure with marauders, that slaughters queens Where does this myth come from. Queens arent armored so why would anti-armored unit slaughter them. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:42 OnFire wrote: I never said Hellions were used to win straight up with, I said Hellions were used to carry Terran safely into the midgame. Perhaps the Queen buff was to much... but Hellion openings were to strong in my opinion... in pro games, Terrans hellion expanded like 95% of the time, for like 6 months straight... if any strategy/opening is used that much, it means it's to strong, or possibly that the race is lacking of a different strat/opening... I don't see anyone complaining about 95% 14hatch and FFE builds being boring. I really don't understand why hellion openings are overpowered while the other two openings are not. The real game starts only after the openings have been played anyway, and there were a lot of ways to transition following hellion openings... standard marine tank, banshee, banshee into mech. | ||
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Dundron2000
Sweden1140 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:57 dde wrote: starting to think those ppl saying use marauders to kill queens making this thread more like trollish thread. how is it a categorically bad idea? | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
Note who it is that said that. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
just copy builds from other top players and dont actually do any of the innovating myself Not saying its a bad thing, I'm guilty of that too. Just saying it wouldn't make me the authority to say there are no options left to consider. Top Terrans are having mixed success against Z, so I wouldn't say all hope is lost. | ||
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Dundron2000
Sweden1140 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:58 keglu wrote: Where does this myth come from. Queens arent armored so why would anti-armored unit slaughter them. ok so send marines.. the point is, find a new role for hellions. marines for queens, hellions support against early lings. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:54 Dundron2000 wrote: terran need to adapt, you cant go reactor hellion every game anymore. why not pressure with marauders, that slaughters queens I'm protoss and even for me it's very obvious that this is just nonsense. As a protoss-player I don't have that much clue of TvZ, but even from watching it lately it seems like zerg is way too safe. I don't know why zergs should be able to get a fast 3rd vs terran when terran can't forge FE. Zergs can play really greedily and all terran can seemingly do is to all-in or do risky expands. Together with the overlord-speed-buff it seems to me that terran has no reliable harassment-options any more that zergs had to prepare for earlier. This made the match-up seem more fair in my eyes because zergs couldn't just go into insane macro mode. To be honest, the queen change seems like the most unneeded change that blizz had ever made - nobody ever asked for it and even zergs seemed "kinda" fine. Seven hells and for Hood's sake, if they had buffed the queen in the first place they maybe wouldn't have needed to nerf the reaper. | ||
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Dundron2000
Sweden1140 Posts
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Mwabih
France1 Post
get quick double banshee and a raven (i guess you wouldn't have enough gas for clock) you don't need scan to remove creep tumors, and when queens show up, just kill them with a PDD (even if there are 4 of them) if they counter with roaches or lings... well they can't hit banshees, right? i've seen this by a pro korean terran in some tournament, can't remember who or even which tournament (maybe mlg anaheim?) so sorry i can't provide any replays  but i think he went for double banshee after a fast expand... i hope this doesn't work because i'm Z and this seems annoying ^^ kidding, if some terrans would like to try i'm curious in the results | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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rufflesQueso
100 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Just read a reaper post and it gave me this weird feeling that the Queen range will remain at 5. Why? All in preparation for HotS. In the next expansion, reaper range is 7. Queens with range 3 would be worthless against them... think 5 rax reaper style from the early days of WoL. Of course, nothing is set in stone... and HotS is years away. Still.. something to think about. You know how stubborn Browder can be. :/ EDIT: I DERPED. Reapers don't have 7 range. On topic: In my opinion, the problem with the match-up is the late game. The Queen buff made this more obvious because Zerg can comfortably transition into the mid-late game stages of the game with a crap ton of drones. I've been experimenting with hellion/banshee openers into Mech while trading hellions for drones. When you go Mech, the only thing that matters is gas. Hellions are a nice mineral dump and you can build many many CC/Orbitals. For late game, you aim for a balance between Thors/Ravens/Siege Tanks/Hellions/Vikings. Try to keep siege tank count low because they are absolute trash against everything except huge numbers of roach. However, upgraded Thors still do decently against roaches. Just gotta watch out for Neural Parasite. This composition does really well against Infestor/Brood armies. I try to make the minimal amount of Vikings possible, while relying on Raven's Seeker Missile/Thor to weaken the Corruptors/Broods. This is because if they tech switch to Ultralisks... you suddenly have a bunch of useless supply floating in the air. Been playing around low-mid masters level. Relatively decent success rates. Of course, I could be playing really bad Zergs, but hey, I am not a pro :D | ||
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
On June 20 2012 19:02 Jojo131 wrote: "Stop telling us we need to innovate, there are no unexplored openings/lategame comps to beat zerg, I'd know cuz I + Show Spoiler + just copy builds from other top players and dont actually do any of the innovating myself Not saying its a bad thing, I'm guilty of that too. Just saying it wouldn't make me the authority to say there are no options left to consider. Top Terrans are having mixed success against Z, so I wouldn't say all hope is lost. Mixed success = 26% win rate in Korea. To be honest though, marauders are garbage. Lings demolish them. Roaches are meh vs. them (unless you have concussive shell), and they just aren't that cost efficient. Marines are countered by roaches, speedlings, or banelings early on (pre stim), and reapers are...just no. That leaves ghosts for the barracks, which if you're using ghosts pre 10 minutes, I pray for you, and then hellions aren't working and tanks/thors early on...that's a really bad idea unless you want to get run over by mass ling. To finish it off, we have all of the starport units and so far we've seen raven/banshee have mild success, then get stomped on by just going and killing the Terran player. | ||
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winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
1) remax faster 2) have a better eco I have a problem with the same race having the strongest army. I am so amazed that people just don't see this. An example is polt vs stephano on taldarim: polt was MAXED, stephano was MAXED, polt had an awesome spread and a good position. Polt lost his whole army. A race with better macro options and with a better army, HAS to be imbalanced. | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On June 20 2012 19:08 Dundron2000 wrote: watch maru vs drg right now for a good idea. marines take out early queens, hellion follow up. atleast its an attempt to switch up the early game And still lost like he was noob.Couldnt do anything to stop Z macro,trying to attack 3rd and denying some creep in MIDDLE of the Map,but no way,adn queens defending so nice,and rolling over the Terran...Z macro unstoppable if T goes macro too. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
with that terran really need to adapt to fast 3rd base zerg. if zerg goes 6 queen into superfast 3rd that means for a really long time Z cant pressure T, so T needs to land their 3rd CC at their 3rd base and establish it with bunker + depot wall. | ||
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Striker.superfreunde
Germany1119 Posts
e-z. would be cool if this would work out. With HotS we all have to accustom to detector units anyway @.@ | ||
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DrPandaPhD
5188 Posts
On June 20 2012 19:18 Dvriel wrote: And still lost like he was noob.Couldnt do anything to stop Z macro,trying to attack 3rd and denying some creep in MIDDLE of the Map,but no way,adn queens defending so nice,and rolling over the Terran...Z macro unstoppable if T goes macro too. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_S More terrans than zerg that has advanced. Not saying Maru is bad (he's amazing), DRG is just on a different level. Still feel like it's too early to call, queen change might have been too much. But since terrans seem to be doing ok in GSL so far I'm going to wait a bit longer. | ||
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