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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 20 2012 20:09 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 19:52 Ghanburighan wrote:Read the thread and watch the games. If it's too early to tell based on the GSL, why are you using those 6 TvZ games as THE balance indicator? Because terrans makes it seem impossible to win. But in the toughest tournament they seem to be doing equal to the other races. As I said, I think it's too early to call. GSL counts higher than any other tournament because it's THE best players. And you shouldn't balance things around lower level pro-gamers. The problem with SC2 compared to Brood War is that there a lot more "over the weekend tournaments". Zerg is the best race for a tournament like DH/IPL/MLG because the zerg race as a whole has lot less room for innovation. Therefore they play these tournaments as it would've been ladder. Terran / Protoss however has a lot room for more tailored strategies for maps/opponents, which they benefit from in GSL. This makes is really difficult to balance because it's two very different types of tournaments. I value GSL above all other tournaments by a lot. That's where the balance changes should be looked at. And atm it looks ok, it's just way too early to call. There is a lot of differnece in having only terrans in the top 6 in GSL or only having zergs in the top 6. What if 6 terrans actually make top 6?
While your reasoning on tailored strategies might hold some weight, I don't think it's good for the game when top Terran pros are reporting 20-30% win rates on ladder.
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On June 20 2012 20:09 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 19:52 Ghanburighan wrote:Read the thread and watch the games. If it's too early to tell based on the GSL, why are you using those 6 TvZ games as THE balance indicator? Because terrans makes it seem impossible to win. But in the toughest tournament they seem to be doing equal to the other races. As I said, I think it's too early to call. GSL counts higher than any other tournament because it's THE best players. And you shouldn't balance things around lower level pro-gamers. The problem with SC2 compared to Brood War is that there a lot more "over the weekend tournaments". Zerg is the best race for a tournament like DH/IPL/MLG because the zerg race as a whole has lot less room for innovation. Therefore they play these tournaments as it would've been ladder. Terran / Protoss however has a lot room for more tailored strategies for maps/opponents, which they benefit from in GSL. This makes is really difficult to balance because it's two very different types of tournaments. I value GSL above all other tournaments by a lot. That's where the balance changes should be looked at. And atm it looks ok, it's just way too early to call. There is a lot of differnece in having only terrans in the top 6 in GSL or only having zergs in the top 6. What if 6 terrans actually make top 6?
Sorry but Line and Yugioh are terrbible players. One goes mass roach againts MMM and other let queens die to hellions and dies to 8 hellions+banshee. So no, it's not good idea to base statistic on these games. I know its pretty convienient for Zerg since its literally only tournament where Terran is not doing badin TvZ. We had last week tournament with 128 best Koreans and in the end there were 6 Zergs in Top 8 and TvZ was at 40%. You have your example if you want to use highest level of play.
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On June 20 2012 20:14 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 20:01 Decendos wrote:
11 min attack is like 5 min or so you can mine at your 3rd and get an army to defend the all in. you might have to lift your 3rd if the attack is coming, but you can save the base + your scvs and crush the all in. btw if you mine from your 3rd at 6 min or so you will get A LOT more income then 3C C on 2 base, so a huge army. at least T has to try stuff like this and not play 2 base 3 CC like before queen buff. fast 3rd from zerg with queens only means a really delayed offensive potential from Z, so T has to abuse that. It's not all-in any more for the zerg if he decides to pause his 3-base macro for a single minute, makes 30 roaches and throw them at your army and then at your third. A roach-ling-bane attack is an all-in if you do it off ~35 drones or so, not 50-70+ as zergs do it nowadays. On the other hand if you stay passive and turtle you will play against 11-minute hive.
well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot.
you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself.
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Nice thread. How about renaming it, like:
28 days later, zombie queen killing 'em all!!!
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On June 20 2012 19:54 Barteh wrote:
It's strange to me how a lot of people don't seem to remember how TvZ went just after release. It was a feat to fast-expand as Z, let alone triple expand. The biggest problem with hellions was that they didn't function as a harass unit that could do some damage, they functioned as an executioner of the entire Z macro and there were very few ways to stop it. The Z either held or died straight up, with T just going on happily.
Now, Z doesn't have to focus their every move just on stopping the early pressure anymore and suddenly they're OP? I personally think the Terran mindset is largely stagnated, still stuck in the era where they could just do whatever early game and then basically drag the Zerg into the shed in the backyard and finish it off.
If you think Terran is the only race that ever has to "adapt" and "learn new strats" you're probably either very new to SC2 or very ignorant.
I do remember how TvZ went just after release. I also remember the map pool being significantly different from the map pool we have today. Steppes of War was so badly Terran favored that some Zergs were 12 drone rushing every time that map came up. Now we have maps with double or even triple the distance and double-quadruple the attack paths.
As the maps got larger, Hellion openers became popular because it was one of the few forms of aggression/map control the Terran could do that wouldn't be completely shut down the moment a sizeable number of speedlings hit the field. Now that Terrans strongest early game map control unit gets shut down with eaze, a lot of us are left wondering what to do, and that is what this thread is about.
Seems like one of the few options we have left are to turtle up like protoss, and work on our marine control, in order to make it into a late game that Blizzard has purposely made to favor Zerg.
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On June 20 2012 20:20 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 20:14 scypio wrote:On June 20 2012 20:01 Decendos wrote:
11 min attack is like 5 min or so you can mine at your 3rd and get an army to defend the all in. you might have to lift your 3rd if the attack is coming, but you can save the base + your scvs and crush the all in. btw if you mine from your 3rd at 6 min or so you will get A LOT more income then 3C C on 2 base, so a huge army. at least T has to try stuff like this and not play 2 base 3 CC like before queen buff. fast 3rd from zerg with queens only means a really delayed offensive potential from Z, so T has to abuse that. It's not all-in any more for the zerg if he decides to pause his 3-base macro for a single minute, makes 30 roaches and throw them at your army and then at your third. A roach-ling-bane attack is an all-in if you do it off ~35 drones or so, not 50-70+ as zergs do it nowadays. On the other hand if you stay passive and turtle you will play against 11-minute hive. well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot. you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself.
But the investment into defense still doesn't really have any downsides. Because of the queens you can't even really be sure anymore if the zerg is skimping on units/spines without wasting scans that are much needed in establishing your own economy to keep up with the zerg.
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Like some people said there is no way to punish a greedy zerg that makes queens and 1 spine whereas when Terran is greedy he can just be killed with a roach bane allin or a baneling bust as was seen in MKPs games in the GSL. I recently played against a high GM Zerg that made about 8 queens total, used 4 of them to cover half of the map in creep almost instantly and then sent them to the watchtower. He did not even need to make units to stop the Hellion Banshee push...
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On June 20 2012 20:27 shr0ud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 20:20 Decendos wrote:On June 20 2012 20:14 scypio wrote:On June 20 2012 20:01 Decendos wrote:
11 min attack is like 5 min or so you can mine at your 3rd and get an army to defend the all in. you might have to lift your 3rd if the attack is coming, but you can save the base + your scvs and crush the all in. btw if you mine from your 3rd at 6 min or so you will get A LOT more income then 3C C on 2 base, so a huge army. at least T has to try stuff like this and not play 2 base 3 CC like before queen buff. fast 3rd from zerg with queens only means a really delayed offensive potential from Z, so T has to abuse that. It's not all-in any more for the zerg if he decides to pause his 3-base macro for a single minute, makes 30 roaches and throw them at your army and then at your third. A roach-ling-bane attack is an all-in if you do it off ~35 drones or so, not 50-70+ as zergs do it nowadays. On the other hand if you stay passive and turtle you will play against 11-minute hive. well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot. you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself. But the investment into defense still doesn't really have any downsides. Because of the queens you can't even really be sure anymore if the zerg is skimping on units/spines without wasting scans that are much needed in establishing your own economy to keep up with the zerg.
well the extra queens have the downside that zerg delays his tech and therefore his aggression potenzial. only thing T has to do is go for fast 3 CC build and stay on 2 base vs 2 base zerg and get your 3rd vs fast 3rd mass queen zerg. like i said its still hard for T but that way T can stay pretty even with zerg eco since 60 scvs + 3 mules = 75 drones.
T has just to learn to not be aggressive vs lots of queens and fast 3rds and be greedy themselves. of course they have to figure out how to be safe by doing so, but its just been some weeks and pretty much all patches needed more time to get counter strats going.
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There are a few points I would like to make.
First, the idea that 3 CC is a viable counter option against zerg's mass queen builds is, in my opinion, ridiculous. Pre patch, this was my go to build, and it would work quite well. It was still tough to fight against Hive tech armies, but this didn't bother me too much as I would normally have a pretty strong push at his door just before hive-tech units came afield, and would be able to start whittling his army down before it reached full strength. However, this was in the days when hellions could contain creep. When it came time to push the creep was usually under control. Now, however, with zergs getting 6 queens and with my hellions being useless against creep spread, if I sit back and power off of three bases the creep is on my doorstep, or at least past halfway, when the time comes for pushing. What does this mean? The push is essentially useless. It will take 5 minutes to get across the map and clear all the creep spread, and by this time the zerg well and truly has a hive tech army and 5 bases. It has been a similar story with pros I have seen go 3 CC. The creep spread gets so out of control that it becomes unmanageable.
Second, to people with a midset along these lines:
On June 20 2012 14:27 shaby23 wrote:
1: Too early to tell
2:Every patch it's like that, something is OP until someone figure that out.
3:Terran need to switch strategy and try something different, instead of following the pro build.
While to some extent this is true, and perhaps it is the best way to think about it, I don't agree with it at all. There was nothing wrong with the TvZ matchup. In fact, it was (in my opinion, and I know many others’) the best matchup in the game. Then, blizzard had to go and fix something that wasn’t broken. Sure, the meta game might adjust eventually and iron out the current imbalance, but why should terran plays be forced to come with a revolution when there was nothing overpowering or abusive about what they were already doing? Why should we just accept that the meta game must change when it was so damn good beforehand? The bottom line is that the queen buff was unnecessary. Rather than terran plays having to completely reinvent their play style Blizzard should stop making unnecessary patches.
Tl;dr 3 CC gets shut down by good creep spread. The queen buff, whether it will eventually be found to be OP or not, was unnecessary and unnecessary patching should be avoided.
EDIT: I want to add one more thing regarding hellion openings. Sure, the TvZ early game had become a little predictable, but this was normally worth it for the awesome mid and late game aggression, battles, dropping, counterattacks, and all the exciting stuff of TvZ. Now, all that seems to happen is terran tries feebly to push and contain creep and then simply dies. Besides, predictable openings isn't all that bad anyway and TvZ was certainly not the only match-up where this occured (PvZ comes to mind with FFE vs 3 hatch).
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On June 20 2012 20:20 Decendos wrote:
well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot.
you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself.
Ok, maybe I am missing something, but please consider this scenario:
1. zerg drones happily to 75 @ three base behind queens
2. zerg now has 2k+ mineral and 600+ gas income per minute
Now z. decides: should I make 30 roaches? He can mine the required resources in about minute... so why do you think it slows down the hive tech for 5-6 minutes or so?
Zerg makes the roaches, he can remake the resources he spent in 1 minute, I can't really tell why should this slow him down that much... ?
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On June 20 2012 20:34 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 20:27 shr0ud wrote:On June 20 2012 20:20 Decendos wrote:On June 20 2012 20:14 scypio wrote:On June 20 2012 20:01 Decendos wrote:
11 min attack is like 5 min or so you can mine at your 3rd and get an army to defend the all in. you might have to lift your 3rd if the attack is coming, but you can save the base + your scvs and crush the all in. btw if you mine from your 3rd at 6 min or so you will get A LOT more income then 3C C on 2 base, so a huge army. at least T has to try stuff like this and not play 2 base 3 CC like before queen buff. fast 3rd from zerg with queens only means a really delayed offensive potential from Z, so T has to abuse that. It's not all-in any more for the zerg if he decides to pause his 3-base macro for a single minute, makes 30 roaches and throw them at your army and then at your third. A roach-ling-bane attack is an all-in if you do it off ~35 drones or so, not 50-70+ as zergs do it nowadays. On the other hand if you stay passive and turtle you will play against 11-minute hive. well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot. you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself. But the investment into defense still doesn't really have any downsides. Because of the queens you can't even really be sure anymore if the zerg is skimping on units/spines without wasting scans that are much needed in establishing your own economy to keep up with the zerg. well the extra queens have the downside that zerg delays his tech and therefore his aggression potenzial. only thing T has to do is go for fast 3 CC build and stay on 2 base vs 2 base zerg and get your 3rd vs fast 3rd mass queen zerg. like i said its still hard for T but that way T can stay pretty even with zerg eco since 60 scvs + 3 mules = 75 drones.
The queens really don't delay much of anything, in fact if nothing else they speeden it because it makes getting a hive at 13 minutes even safer against terran because all of the early/midgame terran aggression is easily thwarted now with minimal resources spent on defensive banelings, etc.
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On June 20 2012 20:34 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 20:27 shr0ud wrote:On June 20 2012 20:20 Decendos wrote:On June 20 2012 20:14 scypio wrote:On June 20 2012 20:01 Decendos wrote:
11 min attack is like 5 min or so you can mine at your 3rd and get an army to defend the all in. you might have to lift your 3rd if the attack is coming, but you can save the base + your scvs and crush the all in. btw if you mine from your 3rd at 6 min or so you will get A LOT more income then 3C C on 2 base, so a huge army. at least T has to try stuff like this and not play 2 base 3 CC like before queen buff. fast 3rd from zerg with queens only means a really delayed offensive potential from Z, so T has to abuse that. It's not all-in any more for the zerg if he decides to pause his 3-base macro for a single minute, makes 30 roaches and throw them at your army and then at your third. A roach-ling-bane attack is an all-in if you do it off ~35 drones or so, not 50-70+ as zergs do it nowadays. On the other hand if you stay passive and turtle you will play against 11-minute hive. well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot. you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself. But the investment into defense still doesn't really have any downsides. Because of the queens you can't even really be sure anymore if the zerg is skimping on units/spines without wasting scans that are much needed in establishing your own economy to keep up with the zerg. well the extra queens have the downside that zerg delays his tech and therefore his aggression potenzial. only thing T has to do is go for fast 3 CC build and stay on 2 base vs 2 base zerg and get your 3rd vs fast 3rd mass queen zerg. like i said its still hard for T but that way T can stay pretty even with zerg eco since 60 scvs + 3 mules = 75 drones. T has just to learn to not be aggressive vs lots of queens and fast 3rds and be greedy themselves. of course they have to figure out how to be safe by doing so, but its just been some weeks and pretty much all patches needed more time to get counter strats going.
To go safely 3 CC u NEED siege tanks in siege mode. That delayes bio production and upgrades heavily, allowing zerg to basically get to infestors + T3 by the time that terran can move out to push.
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On June 20 2012 20:38 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 20:20 Decendos wrote:
well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot.
you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself. Ok, maybe I am missing something, but please consider this scenario: 1. zerg drones happily to 75 @ three base behind queens 2. zerg now has 2k+ mineral and 600+ gas income per minute Now z. decides: should I make 30 roaches? He can mine the required resources in about minute... so why do you think it slows down the hive tech for 5-6 minutes or so? Zerg makes the roaches, he can remake the resources he spent in 1 minute, I can't really tell why should this slow him down that much... ?
if T takes fast 3rd himself he has like 60 scvs + 3 mules, so the same income as the Z.
the 200 supply push with roach ling bling is A LOT more worth than 1 minute income. thats like 4 min or so income and since T has same income i dont see the problem. like i said its just an idea, but T has to try things like this. and on even or almost even economy T should be really fine.
@ Torra: why would you need superfast siegetanks vs 4+ queens + fast 3rd from Z? there cant be any aggression till 10-11 min, so standard tank timing would be fine.
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On June 20 2012 20:40 shr0ud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 20:34 Decendos wrote:On June 20 2012 20:27 shr0ud wrote:On June 20 2012 20:20 Decendos wrote:On June 20 2012 20:14 scypio wrote:On June 20 2012 20:01 Decendos wrote:
11 min attack is like 5 min or so you can mine at your 3rd and get an army to defend the all in. you might have to lift your 3rd if the attack is coming, but you can save the base + your scvs and crush the all in. btw if you mine from your 3rd at 6 min or so you will get A LOT more income then 3C C on 2 base, so a huge army. at least T has to try stuff like this and not play 2 base 3 CC like before queen buff. fast 3rd from zerg with queens only means a really delayed offensive potential from Z, so T has to abuse that. It's not all-in any more for the zerg if he decides to pause his 3-base macro for a single minute, makes 30 roaches and throw them at your army and then at your third. A roach-ling-bane attack is an all-in if you do it off ~35 drones or so, not 50-70+ as zergs do it nowadays. On the other hand if you stay passive and turtle you will play against 11-minute hive. well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot. you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself. But the investment into defense still doesn't really have any downsides. Because of the queens you can't even really be sure anymore if the zerg is skimping on units/spines without wasting scans that are much needed in establishing your own economy to keep up with the zerg. well the extra queens have the downside that zerg delays his tech and therefore his aggression potenzial. only thing T has to do is go for fast 3 CC build and stay on 2 base vs 2 base zerg and get your 3rd vs fast 3rd mass queen zerg. like i said its still hard for T but that way T can stay pretty even with zerg eco since 60 scvs + 3 mules = 75 drones. The queens really don't delay much of anything, in fact if nothing else they speeden it because it makes getting a hive at 13 minutes even safer against terran because all of the early/midgame terran aggression is easily thwarted now with minimal resources spent on defensive banelings, etc.
Not to mention that the zerg no longer has to make as many lings/roaches, thus freeing up more larvae/minerals for drones. 
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On June 20 2012 20:42 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 20:38 scypio wrote:On June 20 2012 20:20 Decendos wrote:
well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot.
you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself. Ok, maybe I am missing something, but please consider this scenario: 1. zerg drones happily to 75 @ three base behind queens 2. zerg now has 2k+ mineral and 600+ gas income per minute Now z. decides: should I make 30 roaches? He can mine the required resources in about minute... so why do you think it slows down the hive tech for 5-6 minutes or so? Zerg makes the roaches, he can remake the resources he spent in 1 minute, I can't really tell why should this slow him down that much... ? if T takes fast 3rd himself he has like 60 scvs + 3 mules, so the same income as the Z. the 200 supply push with roach ling bling is A LOT more worth than 1 minute income. thats like 4 min or so income and since T has same income i dont see the problem. like i said its just an idea, but T has to try things like this. and on even or almost even economy T should be really fine.
We're talking tvz here. 200 supply roach is out of the question...
And even going for an early 3rd cc UNSCOUTED (if it's scouted the zerg just switches to offensive more and straight out kills you), you can't exactly land it and benefit from more mineral patches. And if you do, again, zerg just needs to pressure.
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On June 20 2012 20:45 Sif_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 20:42 Decendos wrote:On June 20 2012 20:38 scypio wrote:On June 20 2012 20:20 Decendos wrote:
well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot.
you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself. Ok, maybe I am missing something, but please consider this scenario: 1. zerg drones happily to 75 @ three base behind queens 2. zerg now has 2k+ mineral and 600+ gas income per minute Now z. decides: should I make 30 roaches? He can mine the required resources in about minute... so why do you think it slows down the hive tech for 5-6 minutes or so? Zerg makes the roaches, he can remake the resources he spent in 1 minute, I can't really tell why should this slow him down that much... ? if T takes fast 3rd himself he has like 60 scvs + 3 mules, so the same income as the Z. the 200 supply push with roach ling bling is A LOT more worth than 1 minute income. thats like 4 min or so income and since T has same income i dont see the problem. like i said its just an idea, but T has to try things like this. and on even or almost even economy T should be really fine. We're talking tvz here. 200 supply roach is out of the question... And even going for an early 3rd cc UNSCOUTED (if it's scouted the zerg just switches to offensive more and straight out kills you), you can't exactly land it and benefit from more mineral patches. And if you do, again, zerg just needs to pressure.
i wrote roach ling bling so...
and no zerg cant pressure with 4+ queens and fast 3rd...he doesnt even have lingspeed...
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On June 20 2012 20:42 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 20:38 scypio wrote:On June 20 2012 20:20 Decendos wrote:
well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot.
you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself. Ok, maybe I am missing something, but please consider this scenario: 1. zerg drones happily to 75 @ three base behind queens 2. zerg now has 2k+ mineral and 600+ gas income per minute Now z. decides: should I make 30 roaches? He can mine the required resources in about minute... so why do you think it slows down the hive tech for 5-6 minutes or so? Zerg makes the roaches, he can remake the resources he spent in 1 minute, I can't really tell why should this slow him down that much... ? @ Torra: why would you need superfast siegetanks vs 4+ queens + fast 3rd from Z? there cant be any aggression till 10-11 min, so standard tank timing would be fine.
By going 3 CC, it's the only way to stay safe against all ins. U can't react once u see it. If u want to be safe u go siege tank w/ the 3 CC.
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just try it before saying its bad 
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On June 20 2012 20:46 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 20:45 Sif_ wrote:On June 20 2012 20:42 Decendos wrote:On June 20 2012 20:38 scypio wrote:On June 20 2012 20:20 Decendos wrote:
well roach ling bling is kind of all in since for 3-4 min there wont be mutas/infestors and 5-6 min no hive incoming. thats a REALLY long time, so if T is able to defend it Z is in a really bad spot.
you dont need to play passive if he is going fast hive. you just can scout the roach bling all in coming. i dont say its easy for T but taking the fast 3rd themselves vs mass queen/fast 3rd Z should be given a try, since Z invests a lot in defense + 3rd, so its just logic to not attack into someone who invests that much in defense and be greedy yourself. Ok, maybe I am missing something, but please consider this scenario: 1. zerg drones happily to 75 @ three base behind queens 2. zerg now has 2k+ mineral and 600+ gas income per minute Now z. decides: should I make 30 roaches? He can mine the required resources in about minute... so why do you think it slows down the hive tech for 5-6 minutes or so? Zerg makes the roaches, he can remake the resources he spent in 1 minute, I can't really tell why should this slow him down that much... ? if T takes fast 3rd himself he has like 60 scvs + 3 mules, so the same income as the Z. the 200 supply push with roach ling bling is A LOT more worth than 1 minute income. thats like 4 min or so income and since T has same income i dont see the problem. like i said its just an idea, but T has to try things like this. and on even or almost even economy T should be really fine. We're talking tvz here. 200 supply roach is out of the question... And even going for an early 3rd cc UNSCOUTED (if it's scouted the zerg just switches to offensive more and straight out kills you), you can't exactly land it and benefit from more mineral patches. And if you do, again, zerg just needs to pressure. i wrote roach ling bling so... and no zerg cant pressure with 4+ queens and fast 3rd...he doesnt even have lingspeed...
He can deny the terran third no problem. There were enough games with Zerg going 4 queens and placing a third into roach/bane bust.
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EPT
