EPTOn June 20 2012 20:50 Decendos wrote:
just try it before saying its bad
just try it before saying its bad
just try it before saying its good. That applies to your probably next suggestion "use moar ravens" as well.
1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
just try it before saying its good. That applies to your probably next suggestion "use moar ravens" as well. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On June 20 2012 20:50 Thrombozyt wrote: He can deny the terran third no problem. There were enough games with Zerg going 4 queens and placing a third into roach/bane bust. which games? do you have VOD of some? i know the other way around, so roach bling push into 3rd but thats not the fast 3rd i am talking about. 3rd after roach bling is at 8-9 min or so. fast 3rd is at 5-6 min. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On June 20 2012 20:52 Thrombozyt wrote: just try it before saying its good. That applies to your probably next suggestion "use moar ravens" as well. i cant since i am Z and my T sucks...  | ||
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IronyDK
Denmark142 Posts
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CrtBalorda
Slovenia704 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 20 2012 20:57 VIPIrony wrote: How does a harass denial tool make an imbalanced matchup? Far as I know the matchup would've ended like this anyway, the queen buff is just the thing to blame? Watch SotG from last night, great example of terrans doing it wrong. Because as Blizzard quite clearly laid out, Terran needs to harras in midgame since to stand on even footing in the lategame, they need to be ahead after the midgame(gotta love saying that while rolling my eyes at Blizzard). The buff to the queens isn't just "harass denial", it's more like "zerg gets a free 3rd", that is why it's so incredibly big. If it was only that you could no longer kill any drones on vs 2 base zerg, via hellions, rines or banshees, it wouldn't really be *that* terrible. The fact that the 3rd can go up without any risk taken by the zerg and furthermore, the zerg doesn't need to waste any/much amount of larvae to protect the 3rd, makes into insanely fast fully saturated 3rd, which in turn makes into a huge change, just from an initial slight change to the queen. | ||
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IronyDK
Denmark142 Posts
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
On June 20 2012 21:04 Zarahtra wrote: Because as Blizzard quite clearly laid out, Terran needs to harras in midgame since to stand on even footing in the lategame, they need to be ahead after the midgame(gotta love saying that while rolling my eyes at Blizzard). The buff to the queens isn't just "harass denial", it's more like "zerg gets a free 3rd", that is why it's so incredibly big. If it was only that you could no longer kill any drones on vs 2 base zerg, via hellions, rines or banshees, it wouldn't really be *that* terrible. The fact that the 3rd can go up without any risk taken by the zerg and furthermore, the zerg doesn't need to waste any/much amount of larvae to protect the 3rd, makes into insanely fast fully saturated 3rd, which in turn makes into a huge change, just from an initial slight change to the queen. The 3rd can go up without any risk? really? Sounds more like a case of Terran making mistakes rather than Zerg being OP | ||
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Wintex
Norway16849 Posts
On June 20 2012 21:19 VIPIrony wrote: Well if Zerg plays this greedy, make out some timings to punish it? Isn't it just a matter of scouting how greedy the zerg is? In SotG Artosis gave an example of several zerg players only having like 6 queens and mass drones for 8 minutes, easely punished. Personally I take my 3rd at 8 minutes, and several timings are good enough to kill me if I'm not extremely careful, and if they then scout my huge army they can just walk back take a 3rd and be ahead. Remember that Zergs also have the greatest scouting capabilities. They can just spread ovies and build like 4 lings covering key spots. The 3base economy overwhelms. | ||
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IronyDK
Denmark142 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 20 2012 21:19 VIPIrony wrote: Well if Zerg plays this greedy, make out some timings to punish it? Isn't it just a matter of scouting how greedy the zerg is? In SotG Artosis gave an example of several zerg players only having like 6 queens and mass drones for 8 minutes, easely punished. Personally I take my 3rd at 8 minutes, and several timings are good enough to kill me if I'm not extremely careful, and if they then scout my huge army they can just walk back take a 3rd and be ahead. 4-6 queens along with lings made once the push is spotted is more than enough to stop any 1-2 base aggression Terran can execute. All zerg needs to do is make sure they arent supply blocked, hit most of their injects and have some form of scout near Terran's ramp. If zerg takes a greedy third with only lings/queens they could potentially fall to a hellion/banshee attack with very poor scouting. | ||
Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
Since we still have a relatively weak Tier 3 compared to zerg's, I thought about some other ways to put the pressure on zergs (since everyone that i asked advices for - when i started the game - told me that letting a zerg macroing up was an auto-lose, since zerg can macro way faster than other races, when fully focused on). I may be wrong, but More precisely, was wondering about some 2 bases Bio + Ghost builds aimed to bring the queens down, since ghost still do a lot of dmg to psi units, and have a pretty dps against light units (much needed against the huge load of zerglings the Zerg would pop out). I didn't see this at the moment, and was wondering why it couldn't work. I've been thinking about a few aspects that could explain, but as a Platin player, i may be wrong : - Mineral cost of ghost (basically replacing 4 marines, not including gas...) - How to prevent the Academy from being scouted ? I think denying ovies with marines is possible, and hiding the academy could be a way to prevent it. - How to prevent the zerg from scouting it too fast with creep ? Thought about getting cloak, but in terms of cost, it's just insane, and you'll need that energy for the snipes. I think it's quite too hard to pull of, but would have liked some comment about it, if there was any sort of possibility with this combination, i don't know... | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 20 2012 21:04 Zarahtra wrote: Because as Blizzard quite clearly laid out, Terran needs to harras in midgame since to stand on even footing in the lategame, they need to be ahead after the midgame(gotta love saying that while rolling my eyes at Blizzard). The buff to the queens isn't just "harass denial", it's more like "zerg gets a free 3rd", that is why it's so incredibly big. If it was only that you could no longer kill any drones on vs 2 base zerg, via hellions, rines or banshees, it wouldn't really be *that* terrible. The fact that the 3rd can go up without any risk taken by the zerg and furthermore, the zerg doesn't need to waste any/much amount of larvae to protect the 3rd, makes into insanely fast fully saturated 3rd, which in turn makes into a huge change, just from an initial slight change to the queen. Its not just the early third thats incredibly big. Its also the fact that terran has no reliable ways to stop creep spread and zergs have an unit that is very effective at dealing with any kind of early aggression terran can do. Zergs actually become way less reactive through this change. Free third, free map control, no real decisionmaking required from the zerg. Having a safe yet economic opener isn't necessarily a bad thing, but terran has been balanced around the fact that they need to do damage in the early game to have an equal mid-lategame. I feel the queen change is a HOTS change they decided to release early, and its just not working out when terran lategame options remain so limited. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 20 2012 21:21 Al Bundy wrote: The 3rd can go up without any risk? really? Sounds more like a case of Terran making mistakes rather than Zerg being OP It would sound like it, wouldn't it? Before the buff, the zerg needed to make either roaches or lings to connect creep to the 3rd(aswell as to just get the drone to the 3rd), and that'd make the econ pretty equal. The zerg would need to then be aware of the possibility of cloaked banshees(since no lair), but the sacrifice in drones would allow the terran to be pretty close on econ and tier 2 would be delayed more(than simply lack of gas) as a result. Depending on terran builds, the terran would then push when the t2 is coming out or take fast 3rd himself. Basically the 3rd was a risk before, though depending on skill of both players and map could be denied or defended. | ||
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IronyDK
Denmark142 Posts
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RancidTurnip
United States105 Posts
On June 20 2012 21:39 VIPIrony wrote: What about actually reading what I said. It's a strategy game, not rock paper scissors. You're not supposed to say "Zerg took 3rd, I do X and he lost the game" Do what I said, make some timing and do it half the time, the other half it's a fake and you have a 3rd behind it = you're even or ahead. One of the reason's Stephanos ZvT opener is so good is beause it's a macro build or an all-in, in the same exact build. He'll either expand, or go try and screw you over with a roach baneling all-in, you can't tell the difference without seeing the 3rd base. Including more all-ins into your play is always a smart idea if people are familiar with your name and your builds, but how does that help the majority of nameless (or anonymous) Terran players on ladder? | ||
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mahO
France274 Posts
On June 20 2012 14:27 shaby23 wrote: 1: Too early to tell 2:Every patch it's like that, something is OP until someone figure that out. 3:Terran need to switch strategy and try something different, instead of following the pro build. Damn, ^This!!! 3 sentences, goodbye. No but clearly, people just panic every single time something changes, when reapers were nerfed "OMAGAD WE GONNA LOOSE", helions nerf same thing, Infestor buff samething, we still saw terrans crush zergs of equal skill level and vice versa right? These changes, are minor, in this particular case, it seems huge because so many openers were based on helions, I always thought that was one of the rare mistakes in terran' metagame, as I find a well defended 3 CC opener way more powerful imho. Might be different at the highest level, but then again, we still see terran crush faces, it's way too early to tell, and it requires a shitload of experimenting on your part. Just like Artosis said, "it's a good change, not because of the numbers, simply because it's going to force terran to try new things and evolve", and thats what SC2 is all about, and everyone is scared to differ from the current metagame (well 98% of decent level players) because they feel like they arent pro enough to invent their own shit and try new stuff on ladder, which is totally understandable, but still bad. Terran is more flexible that we might think, I see that change as a good evolution of the match up for those reasons, technically I'd say the range buff is slightly too strong, still glad it pushes terran to go into playstyles they probably wouldnt have tried before. Good stuff good stuff | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On June 20 2012 21:39 VIPIrony wrote: What about actually reading what I said. It's a strategy game, not rock paper scissors. You're not supposed to say "Zerg took 3rd, I do X and he lost the game" Do what I said, make some timing and do it half the time, the other half it's a fake and you have a 3rd behind it = you're even or ahead. One of the reason's Stephanos ZvT opener is so good is beause it's a macro build or an all-in, in the same exact build. He'll either expand, or go try and screw you over with a roach baneling all-in, you can't tell the difference without seeing the 3rd base. Except for the fact that Terran doesn't have that option because the race works differently. Hitting an all-in as a T requires much more set-up time and investment in infrastructure than it does as Z. You can't 'fake' a timing because of the time required to create an army. | ||
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SyrZulu
80 Posts
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Pneumothorax
United Kingdom68 Posts
The problem I think lies in the fact of not being able to do the killing blow. You can actively harass all game till you hit 3.3 and then push, but the problem is you can't engage or push onto creep. The creep itself receeds so slowly that the zerg is effectively biding enough time to get even more numbers for their lategame army. Additionally, as some other top tier players have said, once infestors are out, it's difficult to deny creep because lingfestor will shut down any attempts to snipe creep tumours, whilst the queens spread the tumours and creep doesn't receed. I'm not sure if queens themselves need to be changed or the speed at creep receeds needs to be changed, but the matchup has seen heavily skewed results in favour of zerg recently. | ||
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