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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 20 2012 22:24 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 22:03 HeroMystic wrote:On June 20 2012 21:32 Ragnarork wrote:
As a Terran player, I was thinking about ways which could be possible to adapt (i.e. doing the job Blizzard has done for zerg [sarcasm:off]) to these changes.
Since we still have a relatively weak Tier 3 compared to zerg's, I thought about some other ways to put the pressure on zergs (since everyone that i asked advices for - when i started the game - told me that letting a zerg macroing up was an auto-lose, since zerg can macro way faster than other races, when fully focused on). I may be wrong, but
More precisely, was wondering about some 2 bases Bio + Ghost builds aimed to bring the queens down, since ghost still do a lot of dmg to psi units, and have a pretty dps against light units (much needed against the huge load of zerglings the Zerg would pop out). I didn't see this at the moment, and was wondering why it couldn't work. I've been thinking about a few aspects that could explain, but as a Platin player, i may be wrong :
- Mineral cost of ghost (basically replacing 4 marines, not including gas...)
- How to prevent the Academy from being scouted ? I think denying ovies with marines is possible, and hiding the academy could be a way to prevent it.
- How to prevent the zerg from scouting it too fast with creep ? Thought about getting cloak, but in terms of cost, it's just insane, and you'll need that energy for the snipes.
I think it's quite too hard to pull of, but would have liked some comment about it, if there was any sort of possibility with this combination, i don't know...
A lot of people have been suggesting this, and I've been giving the same answer: Opportunity cost. What would a Ghost do that any other unit couldn't? Actually, i have been using a build i developed on the ladder which has 100% TvZ winrate so far incorporating ghosts and hellions. However, with that said it is an insta-lose if the Zerg goes roaches. 1rax Expand into double gas, 2 fact reactor hellions. After your 2fact, throw up ghost academy , another rax, and techlabs. push with 2 ghosts and 10-15 hellions while researching Nuke. What ends up happening is that the zerg has at MOST 1 spine sitting at the top of their ramp or at the very least 3-4 queens. snipe does 50 to queens. 3 snipes plus some hellion volleys or ghost hits = death. the ghosts nuke the top of the ramp, killing all spines and then the ghosts plus hellions move into the natural to literally snipe every queen until hellions roast every drone the zerg has. Iv had great recent success with this build on the ladder and if anyone wants replays i will gladly post them, but it only works if the zerg builds no roaches and masses queens early.
That's quite interesting, but I dunno if going the BO counter route is the way to go, man.
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What was the website with the daily korean QQ polls about which race was the weakest one at the moment?
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On June 20 2012 22:36 DataMiner wrote:
What was the website with the daily korean QQ polls about which race was the weakest one at the moment?
Here you go:
http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/
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On June 20 2012 22:34 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 22:24 SyrZulu wrote:On June 20 2012 22:03 HeroMystic wrote:On June 20 2012 21:32 Ragnarork wrote:
As a Terran player, I was thinking about ways which could be possible to adapt (i.e. doing the job Blizzard has done for zerg [sarcasm:off]) to these changes.
Since we still have a relatively weak Tier 3 compared to zerg's, I thought about some other ways to put the pressure on zergs (since everyone that i asked advices for - when i started the game - told me that letting a zerg macroing up was an auto-lose, since zerg can macro way faster than other races, when fully focused on). I may be wrong, but
More precisely, was wondering about some 2 bases Bio + Ghost builds aimed to bring the queens down, since ghost still do a lot of dmg to psi units, and have a pretty dps against light units (much needed against the huge load of zerglings the Zerg would pop out). I didn't see this at the moment, and was wondering why it couldn't work. I've been thinking about a few aspects that could explain, but as a Platin player, i may be wrong :
- Mineral cost of ghost (basically replacing 4 marines, not including gas...)
- How to prevent the Academy from being scouted ? I think denying ovies with marines is possible, and hiding the academy could be a way to prevent it.
- How to prevent the zerg from scouting it too fast with creep ? Thought about getting cloak, but in terms of cost, it's just insane, and you'll need that energy for the snipes.
I think it's quite too hard to pull of, but would have liked some comment about it, if there was any sort of possibility with this combination, i don't know...
A lot of people have been suggesting this, and I've been giving the same answer: Opportunity cost. What would a Ghost do that any other unit couldn't? Actually, i have been using a build i developed on the ladder which has 100% TvZ winrate so far incorporating ghosts and hellions. However, with that said it is an insta-lose if the Zerg goes roaches. 1rax Expand into double gas, 2 fact reactor hellions. After your 2fact, throw up ghost academy , another rax, and techlabs. push with 2 ghosts and 10-15 hellions while researching Nuke. What ends up happening is that the zerg has at MOST 1 spine sitting at the top of their ramp or at the very least 3-4 queens. snipe does 50 to queens. 3 snipes plus some hellion volleys or ghost hits = death. the ghosts nuke the top of the ramp, killing all spines and then the ghosts plus hellions move into the natural to literally snipe every queen until hellions roast every drone the zerg has. Iv had great recent success with this build on the ladder and if anyone wants replays i will gladly post them, but it only works if the zerg builds no roaches and masses queens early. That's quite interesting, but I dunno if going the BO counter route is the way to go, man.
Having one or two build orders that you can produce to counter the six queen stuff would actually be very beneficial towards reducing the frequency at which you face such a build. It's things like this which alter the way the game is played and keep things evolving.
Every now and then someone will produce a build which counters a common or powerful build that another race is using.
I'm unsure whether this particular build is good enough, but thinking like that is what evolves the meta game.
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On June 20 2012 22:23 Probe1 wrote:
Wow these threads are starting to get under my skin.
If Zerg invests 1600 minerals in defending his front I can't break into his front! TvZ IMBALANCED!
you get TWO additional queens over what you'd normally get and as a bonus 4 queens make it possible for the zerg to delay his gasses and get a quick third
and a queen costs 150 minerals, i have no idea what kind of retarded arithmetic you are using to come up with 1600 minerals
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With this patch though,currently
GSL Round of 16:
5 Terran
5 Protoss
4 Zerg
This is the best race ratio that i have seen since forever. Though we can't judge much based on one tournament,
this patch did help zerg a lot and they are doing well now.
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ok,lets not go there edit
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On June 20 2012 22:45 FakeDeath wrote:
With this patch though,currently
GSL Round of 16:
5 Terran
5 Protoss
4 Zerg
This is the best race ratio that i have seen since forever. Though we can't judge much based on one tournament,
this patch did help zerg a lot and they are doing well now.
Not being funny but its rd32... lets see how many there are in the final 8, and then compare it to all the recent tournaments too.
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no terran in top 8 of dreamhack either
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On June 20 2012 22:50 SyrZulu wrote:
no terran in top 8 of dreamhack either
Statistically, even if the three races were perfectly balanced and the outcome of each match was random, there would be an 11% chance of one race being eliminated before [ro8].
This. I'm actually a bit surprised it doesn't happen a bit more often. Going through the Liquipedia premier tournaments since last June (~1 year), this is only the 3rd time in 38 tournaments [where an entire race is eleminated before ro8]. EDIT: I forgot to mention - It's happened once to each race too 
Great posts by these guys. Stuff like that shouldn't be too worrisome unless hit happens a lot, which it doesn't.
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Such an incredibly biased OP lol. Even the title of the thread is a loaded question. I love how the notable posts he's putting in the OP are only from pro Terran players lol. Also love how in response to the triple cc argument he says "yes that puts the terran even with the zerg but this thread isnt about the lategame", but then when some pro says the lategame is imba the OP switches to "yes the real issue here is the lategame." Such a classic example of fail biased qq that is a knee-jerk reaction to a recent balance change. The only thing sadder is there are 200 replies of more people drawing sweeping conclusions after just one month of this change. Thankfully Blizzard smartly goes by the policy that they'll wait for the metagame smoke to clear before assessing the inherent balance. If only more SC2 players were discerning enough to have learned after 2 years of WoL that you need to give balance changes some time before drawing sweeping conclusions.
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^no terran in yesterdays tsl qualifiers top8 aswell
not to mention in 4 qualifiers no terran in ro4
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On June 20 2012 22:57 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +Statistically, even if the three races were perfectly balanced and the outcome of each match was random, there would be an 11% chance of one race being eliminated before [ro8]. Show nested quote +This. I'm actually a bit surprised it doesn't happen a bit more often. Going through the Liquipedia premier tournaments since last June (~1 year), this is only the 3rd time in 38 tournaments [where an entire race is eleminated before ro8]. EDIT: I forgot to mention - It's happened once to each race too Great posts by these guys. Stuff like that shouldn't be too worrisome unless hit happens a lot, which it doesn't.
Beside NSH killing Startale with their Terran ( everyone can agree sometimes Jjakji just has his moments ) there hasn't been a lot of terran win lately.
Even MKP seems to have some trouble now.
I'm confident it will pass tho.
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On June 20 2012 22:24 mrlie3 wrote:
Great OP, but one thing is missing in this: Overlord speed buff.
If you look at both queen range buff and overlord speed buff independently, they seem okay for balancing and only fixes minor issues: better protection against early aggression and better scouting. However, I think overlord buff had a MAJOR effect on TvZ as it compliments queen buffs. How?
First, as OP said, queen range buff enabled zerg to mass up queens without sacrificing drone productions, so zerg can get ahead in mid and late games. Then what strategy can terran do to KILL this mass queen no gas 3 hatch strategy? Yes, as OP also mentioned, it is any forms of allin from terran. eg. 1111 proxy rax scv allin, mass hellion allin, marauder/hellion allin, 4+ rax allin etc. All of these strategy punishes zerg for delaying gas and not getting any speedlings and/or banelings to counter them.
Now here comes the funny part: overlord speed buff enabled zerg to scout these allins much, much easier! So any sensible zergs, upon scouting most of these allins, will make spine crawlers and lings instead of drones to anticipate the allin, defend with 6+ queens, and win the game. So as you can see, two buffs, when it seemed okay individually, basically broke the current TvZ metagame. If terran has no way of punishing zerg going economic cheese, then its only option is now tripple CC build, which ironically is super weak to any zerg allins. Even without allins, zergs can now comfortably play zvt knowing that terran only has this build against theirs, so they will almost always force zvt to be late game scenario, which generally favours zerg.
And as stalife said, infestors are way, way too efficient unit in the mid game. So guess what? zergs now have, when played decently, has very high chance of defending early-game allins with queen, mid-game aggression with infestors, and win late-game with broodlord/corruptor/infestor composition. As many code S pros pointed out, terran cannot win against zerg if they are on equal level of skills for this particular reason.
I sincerely hope there is at least some buff to terran or rollback of queen range (or even to 4, so we can AT LEAST kite them) or nerf of infestor in the future.
Even with the overlord upgrade speed its difficult to scout T base if they are ready for it.
the overlord scoutting routes are pretty standard, usually 1 or 2 options where the overlords are coming from, you only need 2 marines per direction to stop them completely.
this is something where terrans dont really put any effort on to, mostly because they never had to since prepatch overlords were slow as hell and denying that was easy.
compare this shit to ZvP where zerg has to scout every corner from 50% of the map for probes/ proxy pylons.
Terran needs 2-4 marines, with 4 of em you just place them to key location and you dont even have to anything yourself anymore.
with 2 you might need to move them every now and then and look at the minimap.
I garantee that these initial scouting overlords wont be a problem if you put as much effort on moving your marines as zergs put on zerlings when playing ZvP, also doing shit like lifting buildings to kill overlords from high locations.
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On June 20 2012 23:02 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 22:57 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 20 2012 22:50 SyrZulu wrote:
no terran in top 8 of dreamhack either Statistically, even if the three races were perfectly balanced and the outcome of each match was random, there would be an 11% chance of one race being eliminated before [ro8]. This. I'm actually a bit surprised it doesn't happen a bit more often. Going through the Liquipedia premier tournaments since last June (~1 year), this is only the 3rd time in 38 tournaments [where an entire race is eleminated before ro8]. EDIT: I forgot to mention - It's happened once to each race too Great posts by these guys. Stuff like that shouldn't be too worrisome unless hit happens a lot, which it doesn't. Beside NSH killing Startale with their Terran ( everyone can agree sometimes Jjakji just has his moments ) there hasn't been a lot of terran win lately. Even MKP seems to have some trouble now. I'm confident it will pass tho.
I'm not saying that  isn't doing poorly (they definitely are having a hard time). Is it because of imbalance? Possible.
My objection is that "no [race] in top 8 in [a recent premier tournament]" is a very poor argument because it is bound to happen quite often even in a hypothetical perfectly balanced game. If op can cite many instances in recent time, then it's a stronger argument.
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I guess that Blue is Terran, Pink is Zerg and Green is Protoss ? Am I right ?
Well, if it's like that is kinda sad to see terran disappear from everything. 
On June 20 2012 23:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:02 Noocta wrote:On June 20 2012 22:57 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 20 2012 22:50 SyrZulu wrote:
no terran in top 8 of dreamhack either Statistically, even if the three races were perfectly balanced and the outcome of each match was random, there would be an 11% chance of one race being eliminated before [ro8]. This. I'm actually a bit surprised it doesn't happen a bit more often. Going through the Liquipedia premier tournaments since last June (~1 year), this is only the 3rd time in 38 tournaments [where an entire race is eleminated before ro8]. EDIT: I forgot to mention - It's happened once to each race too Great posts by these guys. Stuff like that shouldn't be too worrisome unless hit happens a lot, which it doesn't. Beside NSH killing Startale with their Terran ( everyone can agree sometimes Jjakji just has his moments ) there hasn't been a lot of terran win lately. Even MKP seems to have some trouble now. I'm confident it will pass tho. I'm not saying that isn't doing poorly (they definitely are having a hard time). Is it because of imbalance? Possible. My objection is that "no [race] in top 8 in [a recent premier tournament]" is a very poor argument because it is bound to happen quite often even in a hypothetical perfectly balanced game. If op can cite many instances in recent time, then it's a stronger argument.
Yeah, but I guess that when P or Z used to whine and use the "no Z/P in GSL" argument it was fine ? You Z and P are such hypocrites.
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Yeah, I definitely think its to early to tell at this point. If we give it a few more months I'm sure a pro will show us how its done in a tournament. Patience is key!
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On June 20 2012 22:22 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 22:10 CygNus X-1 wrote:
Remember there was a time terran was winning without the use of the hellion builds. 2rax cheese and bunker rushes on small maps?
barracks build time +5 seconds
Bunker build time +5 seconds
GG!
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EPT
