EPT1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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shr0ud
Finland222 Posts
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
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sGs.Stregon
United States161 Posts
On June 20 2012 21:51 Evangelist wrote: Is State of the Game still the ProtoZerg Power Hour? I'd also like people to tell me exactly what unit Terrans haven't attempted to use at some point. well, Terrans havnt tried, no they did that.. What about the, no they did that too.. Mabey a, no that was proven ineffectual.. Well, has any Terrans tried to, well they did that too... I dunno man. I guess as Terran players we just need to stop trying new things ((like protoss and zerg for the first 1 1/2 years of Sc2)) untill Blizzard is forced to give the Terran races buffs to help us keep up, while we just do the same thing over and over again that we all know doesnt work, then we start experimenting with new strats and what not after we get tons of buffs.. I dont think Terrans have tried that yet..((although Im not entirely sure if that counts as a unit)) | ||
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Jinsho
United Kingdom3101 Posts
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shr0ud
Finland222 Posts
On June 20 2012 21:58 Jinsho wrote: It's not. Well I'm convinced. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On June 20 2012 21:32 Ragnarork wrote: As a Terran player, I was thinking about ways which could be possible to adapt (i.e. doing the job Blizzard has done for zerg [sarcasm:off]) to these changes. Since we still have a relatively weak Tier 3 compared to zerg's, I thought about some other ways to put the pressure on zergs (since everyone that i asked advices for - when i started the game - told me that letting a zerg macroing up was an auto-lose, since zerg can macro way faster than other races, when fully focused on). I may be wrong, but More precisely, was wondering about some 2 bases Bio + Ghost builds aimed to bring the queens down, since ghost still do a lot of dmg to psi units, and have a pretty dps against light units (much needed against the huge load of zerglings the Zerg would pop out). I didn't see this at the moment, and was wondering why it couldn't work. I've been thinking about a few aspects that could explain, but as a Platin player, i may be wrong : - Mineral cost of ghost (basically replacing 4 marines, not including gas...) - How to prevent the Academy from being scouted ? I think denying ovies with marines is possible, and hiding the academy could be a way to prevent it. - How to prevent the zerg from scouting it too fast with creep ? Thought about getting cloak, but in terms of cost, it's just insane, and you'll need that energy for the snipes. I think it's quite too hard to pull of, but would have liked some comment about it, if there was any sort of possibility with this combination, i don't know... A lot of people have been suggesting this, and I've been giving the same answer: Opportunity cost. What would a Ghost do that any other unit couldn't? | ||
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CygNus X-1
Canada169 Posts
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sGs.Stregon
United States161 Posts
On June 20 2012 22:10 CygNus X-1 wrote: Remember there was a time terran was winning without the use of the hellion builds. You mean the time when Ghosts were usefull? | ||
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
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carloselcoco
United States2302 Posts
On June 20 2012 14:24 johnnywup wrote: still too early to tell imo, terrans need to learn different openers besides hellions which they haven't really yet Why don't you give us an example? Ohh... That is right... There are none! | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 20 2012 22:10 CygNus X-1 wrote: Remember there was a time terran was winning without the use of the hellion builds. 2rax cheese and bunker rushes on small maps? | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
If Zerg invests 1600 minerals in defending his front I can't break into his front! TvZ IMBALANCED! | ||
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mrlie3
Canada350 Posts
If you look at both queen range buff and overlord speed buff independently, they seem okay for balancing and only fixes minor issues: better protection against early aggression and better scouting. However, I think overlord buff had a MAJOR effect on TvZ as it compliments queen buffs. How? First, as OP said, queen range buff enabled zerg to mass up queens without sacrificing drone productions, so zerg can get ahead in mid and late games. Then what strategy can terran do to KILL this mass queen no gas 3 hatch strategy? Yes, as OP also mentioned, it is any forms of allin from terran. eg. 1111 proxy rax scv allin, mass hellion allin, marauder/hellion allin, 4+ rax allin etc. All of these strategy punishes zerg for delaying gas and not getting any speedlings and/or banelings to counter them. Now here comes the funny part: overlord speed buff enabled zerg to scout these allins much, much easier! So any sensible zergs, upon scouting most of these allins, will make spine crawlers and lings instead of drones to anticipate the allin, defend with 6+ queens, and win the game. So as you can see, two buffs, when it seemed okay individually, basically broke the current TvZ metagame. If terran has no way of punishing zerg going economic cheese, then its only option is now tripple CC build, which ironically is super weak to any zerg allins. Even without allins, zergs can now comfortably play zvt knowing that terran only has this build against theirs, so they will almost always force zvt to be late game scenario, which generally favours zerg. And as stalife said, infestors are way, way too efficient unit in the mid game. So guess what? zergs now have, when played decently, has very high chance of defending early-game allins with queen, mid-game aggression with infestors, and win late-game with broodlord/corruptor/infestor composition. As many code S pros pointed out, terran cannot win against zerg if they are on equal level of skills for this particular reason. I sincerely hope there is at least some buff to terran or rollback of queen range (or even to 4, so we can AT LEAST kite them) or nerf of infestor in the future. | ||
SyrZulu
80 Posts
On June 20 2012 22:03 HeroMystic wrote: A lot of people have been suggesting this, and I've been giving the same answer: Opportunity cost. What would a Ghost do that any other unit couldn't? Actually, i have been using a build i developed on the ladder which has 100% TvZ winrate so far incorporating ghosts and hellions. However, with that said it is an insta-lose if the Zerg goes roaches. 1rax Expand into double gas, 2 fact reactor hellions. After your 2fact, throw up ghost academy , another rax, and techlabs. push with 2 ghosts and 10-15 hellions while researching Nuke. What ends up happening is that the zerg has at MOST 1 spine sitting at the top of their ramp or at the very least 3-4 queens. snipe does 50 to queens. 3 snipes plus some hellion volleys or ghost hits = death. the ghosts nuke the top of the ramp, killing all spines and then the ghosts plus hellions move into the natural to literally snipe every queen until hellions roast every drone the zerg has. Iv had great recent success with this build on the ladder and if anyone wants replays i will gladly post them, but it only works if the zerg builds no roaches and masses queens early. | ||
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SyrZulu
80 Posts
On June 20 2012 22:24 mrlie3 wrote: Great OP, but one thing is missing in this: Overlord speed buff. If you look at both queen range buff and overlord speed buff independently, they seem okay for balancing and only fixes minor issues: better protection against early aggression and better scouting. However, I think overlord buff had a MAJOR effect on TvZ as it compliments queen buffs. How? First, as OP said, queen range buff enabled zerg to mass up queens without sacrificing drone productions, so zerg can get ahead in mid and late games. Then what strategy can terran do to KILL this mass queen no gas 3 hatch strategy? Yes, as OP also mentioned, it is any forms of allin from terran. eg. 1111 proxy rax scv allin, mass hellion allin, marauder/hellion allin, 4+ rax allin etc. All of these strategy punishes zerg for delaying gas and not getting any speedlings and/or banelings to counter them. Now here comes the funny part: overlord speed buff enabled zerg to scout these allins much, much easier! So any sensible zergs, upon scouting most of these allins, will make spine crawlers and lings instead of drones to anticipate the allin, defend with 6+ queens, and win the game. So as you can see, two buffs, when it seemed okay individually, basically broke the current TvZ metagame. If terran has no way of punishing zerg going economic cheese, then its only option is now tripple CC build, which ironically is super weak to any zerg allins. Even without allins, zergs can now comfortably play zvt knowing that terran only has this build against theirs, so they will almost always force zvt to be late game scenario, which generally favours zerg. And as stalife said, infestors are way, way too efficient unit in the mid game. So guess what? zergs now have, when played decently, has very high chance of defending early-game allins with queen, mid-game aggression with infestors, and win late-game with broodlord/corruptor/infestor composition. As many code S pros pointed out, terran cannot win against zerg if they are on equal level of skills for this particular reason. I sincerely hope there is at least some buff to terran or rollback of queen range (or even to 4, so we can AT LEAST kite them) or nerf of infestor in the future. Great point! i will add this to the front ! | ||
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RancidTurnip
United States105 Posts
On June 20 2012 22:23 Probe1 wrote: Wow these threads are starting to get under my skin. If Zerg invests 1600 minerals in defending his front I can't break into his front! TvZ IMBALANCED! Well, more like 900, before subtracting the minerals that would normally be spent on units other than queens, before subtracting the extra minerals from the delayed gas, then before subtracting the minerals that all the extra drones worth of freed up larvae would mine, and also before subtracting the earlier income from the undenied 3rd.. Nitpicking aside, your post is just an unconstructive as any of the balance whining going on in this thread. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On June 20 2012 22:23 Probe1 wrote: Wow these threads are starting to get under my skin. If Zerg invests 1600 minerals in defending his front I can't break into his front! TvZ IMBALANCED! QFT. Even if the queens cost no larva, people need to realize that those 4 four queens that guard against all terran aggression in the early game did cost 400 minerals each! | ||
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DawN883
Sweden558 Posts
On June 20 2012 22:29 JustPassingBy wrote: QFT. Even if the queens cost no larva, people need to realize that those 4 four queens that guard against all terran aggression in the early game did cost 400 minerals each! What? 4 queens 400 minerals each? what the hell are you taling about? EDIT: After reading your post again I have to believe you were being sarcastic EDIT2: Man I'm dumb | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 20 2012 22:29 JustPassingBy wrote: QFT. Even if the queens cost no larva, people need to realize that those 4 four queens that guard against all terran aggression in the early game did cost 400 minerals each! That made me laugh, well played ;D | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On June 20 2012 22:23 Probe1 wrote: Wow these threads are starting to get under my skin. If Zerg invests 1600 minerals in defending his front I can't break into his front! TvZ IMBALANCED! Zerg invest 300 minerals into two additional queens to get total freedom defensively. Don't make it sound like " omg I deserve it, I spend a lot of money into it " Most of the time terran spend more to get the hellions. -_- | ||
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