EPT
1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
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SyrZulu
80 Posts
On June 20 2012 22:58 Doodsmack wrote: Such an incredibly biased OP lol. Even the title of the thread is a loaded question. I love how the notable posts he's putting in the OP are only from pro Terran players lol. Also love how in response to the triple cc argument he says "yes that puts the terran even with the zerg but this thread isnt about the lategame", but then when some pro says the lategame is imba the OP switches to "yes the real issue here is the lategame." Such a classic example of fail biased qq that is a knee-jerk reaction to a recent balance change. The only thing sadder is there are 200 replies of more people drawing sweeping conclusions after just one month of this change. Thankfully Blizzard smartly goes by the policy that they'll wait for the metagame smoke to clear before assessing the inherent balance. If only more SC2 players were discerning enough to have learned after 2 years of WoL that you need to give balance changes some time before drawing sweeping conclusions. Im just trying to draw attention to the queen updates because it seems like Terran is having a very tough time even though the change may seem insignificant. instead of picking apart my discussion, why dont you help further the thread by actively participating instead of criticizing? i know i didnt want to discuss lategame, but it keeps coming up so i had to address it. Also, i have been checking the thread and i have not seem any "pro" zerg responses as of yet. I will of course add the zerg responses if any choose to respond. Thanks! Also im going to start streaming for fun if anyone is interested. im in the non-featured. ;P | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:00 Starstuff wrote: Didn't see it in 10 or so last pages so here it is... http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg Minor patch at its best :D lol. Did you pick the tournaments where T sucked or is that every major after the patch? | ||
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Torra
Norway469 Posts
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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
Things are called "Standard" for a reason, its a safe way to play the game. I don't want this game turning into a WoW "Flavor-of-the-month" Patchfest. They need to hit a balance point and only patch real problems, but otherwise leave it alone like they did with brood war. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:18 Torra wrote: DRGs thoughts: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/gomcam/70061 I'm at work. Any chance someone can write a transcript or summary? Would be eternally grateful. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:07 BlitzerSC wrote: I guess that Blue is Terran, Pink is Zerg and Green is Protoss ? Am I right ? Well, if it's like that is kinda sad to see terran disappear from everything. Yeah, but I guess that when P or Z used to whine and use the "no Z/P in GSL" argument it was fine ? You Z and P are such hypocrites. Did you even read what I posted -_-;; I'll short-form for your convenience. 1. In a hypotheical perfectly balanced game and where each pro is the exact same skill, 11% of the tournaments will have an entire race eliminated before ro8. (In SC2, the game is obviously not perfectly balanced, and some pros are better than others. Stephano is more likely to win a set than lose.) 2. OP cites one tournament, hence I pointed it out to him that's a weak argument. Another poster later posted a graphic with a larger sample size, hence a stronger argument. 3. I'm  -_-;; | ||
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Starstuff
Croatia60 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:17 Jarree wrote: lol. Did you pick the tournaments where T sucked or is that every major after the patch? I didn't put that together, just came across the picture, but I can't think of any other major tournament since the patch, bar GSL of course. EDIT: WCS Germany... but that was also ridiculous from a terran point of view. | ||
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mrlie3
Canada350 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:04 Beyond Magic wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 20 2012 22:24 mrlie3 wrote: Great OP, but one thing is missing in this: Overlord speed buff. If you look at both queen range buff and overlord speed buff independently, they seem okay for balancing and only fixes minor issues: better protection against early aggression and better scouting. However, I think overlord buff had a MAJOR effect on TvZ as it compliments queen buffs. How? First, as OP said, queen range buff enabled zerg to mass up queens without sacrificing drone productions, so zerg can get ahead in mid and late games. Then what strategy can terran do to KILL this mass queen no gas 3 hatch strategy? Yes, as OP also mentioned, it is any forms of allin from terran. eg. 1111 proxy rax scv allin, mass hellion allin, marauder/hellion allin, 4+ rax allin etc. All of these strategy punishes zerg for delaying gas and not getting any speedlings and/or banelings to counter them. Now here comes the funny part: overlord speed buff enabled zerg to scout these allins much, much easier! So any sensible zergs, upon scouting most of these allins, will make spine crawlers and lings instead of drones to anticipate the allin, defend with 6+ queens, and win the game. So as you can see, two buffs, when it seemed okay individually, basically broke the current TvZ metagame. If terran has no way of punishing zerg going economic cheese, then its only option is now tripple CC build, which ironically is super weak to any zerg allins. Even without allins, zergs can now comfortably play zvt knowing that terran only has this build against theirs, so they will almost always force zvt to be late game scenario, which generally favours zerg. And as stalife said, infestors are way, way too efficient unit in the mid game. So guess what? zergs now have, when played decently, has very high chance of defending early-game allins with queen, mid-game aggression with infestors, and win late-game with broodlord/corruptor/infestor composition. As many code S pros pointed out, terran cannot win against zerg if they are on equal level of skills for this particular reason. I sincerely hope there is at least some buff to terran or rollback of queen range (or even to 4, so we can AT LEAST kite them) or nerf of infestor in the future. Even with the overlord upgrade speed its difficult to scout T base if they are ready for it. the overlord scoutting routes are pretty standard, usually 1 or 2 options where the overlords are coming from, you only need 2 marines per direction to stop them completely. this is something where terrans dont really put any effort on to, mostly because they never had to since prepatch overlords were slow as hell and denying that was easy. compare this shit to ZvP where zerg has to scout every corner from 50% of the map for probes/ proxy pylons. Terran needs 2-4 marines, with 4 of em you just place them to key location and you dont even have to anything yourself anymore. with 2 you might need to move them every now and then and look at the minimap. I garantee that these initial scouting overlords wont be a problem if you put as much effort on moving your marines as zergs put on zerlings when playing ZvP, also doing shit like lifting buildings to kill overlords from high locations. Well I am actually one of those diligent terran who scouts the map searching for overlords and zerglings with my marines. (I've often gotten shits from zergs claiming I maphack when I got lucky lol) and I can tell you with certainty that after speed buff, in some maps this is NOT possible to do at all. I understand that you're drawing analogy with zergs scouting diligently for probes with zerglings. Problem is, probe is ground unit and overlord is air unit. Before the patch, either with proxy rax and lifting it with 2 marines or scouting with your initial marines to where overlord pathing might be could net you 1 or 2 overlord kills. After the patch, however, maps like cloud kingdom, antiga shipyard, and daybreak has a spot for overlord to safely run away from initial marine scouting, EVEN WITH floating rax! You can try it yourself with a friend and you will know where: eg. empty space over the nat in cloud kingdom, empty space beside the main gas geyser at antiga (cross), empty space beside both main and nat in daybreak - list goes on. Marines were able to snipe the overlord before the patch with good luck because overlord was too slow to reach these locations, but now even with proxy rax, they can safely arrive there. And proxy rax is a big risk for terran as well, and if you cannot kill overlord with it, you are starting with delayed hellion production. And guess what, these overlords are the ones that can safely scout terran allins minutes later! =( | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
Now I've got the feeling that it's shifting closer to TvP standard timing, where nothing happens before ~10 minutes when people go for that double-medivac poke. And in TvP sometimes you can see some successful cheese, which is now totally worthless vs zerg. | ||
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-TesteR-
Canada1165 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:07 BlitzerSC wrote: I guess that Blue is Terran, Pink is Zerg and Green is Protoss ? Am I right ? Well, if it's like that is kinda sad to see terran disappear from everything. Yeah, but I guess that when P or Z used to whine and use the "no Z/P in GSL" argument it was fine ? You Z and P are such hypocrites. except there ARE terrans in GSL, quite a few actually, more than other races actually. edit: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/ <-- does this mean koreans think protoss is underpowered? | ||
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how2TL
1197 Posts
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
a) undo the nerf on the siege tanks (this means back to 60 dmg to everything). Would at least give terran some map control, and severely cripple baneling busts or ling run-bys. b) undo the nerfs on the reaper, so terran can punish greedy zergs, and punish them hard. There is no reason why triple FE should be considered safe, let alone standard. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:27 -TesteR- wrote: except there ARE terrans in GSL, quite a few actually, more than other races actually. edit: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/ <-- does this mean koreans think protoss is underpowered? Actually: Red -  Green - Blue -  They have a different color scheme than we do here at TL  | ||
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Wrathsc2
United States2025 Posts
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-TesteR-
Canada1165 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:33 SarcasmMonster wrote: Actually: Red - Green - Blue - They have a different color scheme than we do here at TL OH k that makes sense, it was weird scrolling down and seeing blue under powered in 2011 lol. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:20 Ghanburighan wrote: I'm at work. Any chance someone can write a transcript or summary? Would be eternally grateful. DRG - Queen too good. Zerg too good. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:29 maartendq wrote: My possible solutions (terribly biased though): a) undo the nerf on the siege tanks (this means back to 60 dmg to everything). Would at least give terran some map control, and severely cripple baneling busts or ling run-bys. b) undo the nerfs on the reaper, so terran can punish greedy zergs, and punish them hard. There is no reason why triple FE should be considered safe, let alone standard. With 5 range queens, reapers even in their beta state don't work anymore. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 20 2012 23:29 maartendq wrote: My possible solutions (terribly biased though): a) undo the nerf on the siege tanks (this means back to 60 dmg to everything). Would at least give terran some map control, and severely cripple baneling busts or ling run-bys. b) undo the nerfs on the reaper, so terran can punish greedy zergs, and punish them hard. There is no reason why triple FE should be considered safe, let alone standard. a) would make TvZ MU more boring(personally I like the fact 0/1 lings can survive a tank shot) and totally fuck up TvT(as in make mech only really viable, since now i'd say mech > bio mech > bio > mech*, but it'd probably be mech > bio mech > bio < mech after tank buff). b) wouldn't really change anything, 5 range queens would own reapers. It'd just be gimmicky play where if you got inside the base, or the zerg wasn't making over 2 queens, you could kill him. * Dependant on map ofcourse, but most generally I feel it works like that. On June 20 2012 23:37 radiantshadow92 wrote: This wont get figured out. Zergs are going to keep improving at faster rate then terran and MU will only get worse and worse. Disagree with this though. Think everyone is improving pretty similarly(given same time), but I think terran will always be able to use their improvement the most, due to the insanely high skill ceiling(due to micro potential). | ||
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J_Slim
United States199 Posts
I'm just surprised we havn't seen more Ravens mixed in yet. | ||
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