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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
DRG : I aim for 1st place
Chae : Why so much confidence ?
DRG : Because I'm zerg !
Chae : Why zerg so good ?
DRG : Queen range so important
Chae : what if they give queen 50 energy and reduce range to 3 ?
DRG : still zerg too good because creep good
They were laughing the whole time tho and speaking english so not very detailed and not very serious.
(also worth noting that DRG didn't need the patch to do good -well in fact most of the good zergs didn't- so having free buffs have made the game easier for such a high tier player)
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On June 20 2012 23:45 MrCon wrote:
DRG : I aim for 1st place
Chae : Why so much confidence ?
DRG : Because I'm zerg !
Chae : Why zerg so good ?
DRG : Queen range so important
Chae : what if they give queen 50 energy and reduce range to 3 ?
DRG : still zerg too good because creep good
They were laughing the whole time tho and speaking english so not very detailed.
Eternal gratitude earned.
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On June 20 2012 23:12 SyrZulu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Such an incredibly biased OP lol. Even the title of the thread is a loaded question. I love how the notable posts he's putting in the OP are only from pro Terran players lol. Also love how in response to the triple cc argument he says "yes that puts the terran even with the zerg but this thread isnt about the lategame", but then when some pro says the lategame is imba the OP switches to "yes the real issue here is the lategame." Such a classic example of fail biased qq that is a knee-jerk reaction to a recent balance change. The only thing sadder is there are 200 replies of more people drawing sweeping conclusions after just one month of this change. Thankfully Blizzard smartly goes by the policy that they'll wait for the metagame smoke to clear before assessing the inherent balance. If only more SC2 players were discerning enough to have learned after 2 years of WoL that you need to give balance changes some time before drawing sweeping conclusions. Im just trying to draw attention to the queen updates because it seems like Terran is having a very tough time even though the change may seem insignificant. instead of picking apart my discussion, why dont you help further the thread by actively participating instead of criticizing? i know i didnt want to discuss lategame, but it keeps coming up so i had to address it. Also, i have been checking the thread and i have not seem any "pro" zerg responses as of yet. I will of course add the zerg responses if any choose to respond. Thanks! Also im going to start streaming for fun if anyone is interested. im in the non-featured. ;P
Because it is a poorly constructured OP? You could've just said "What do you think about the Queen Buff after 1 month", instead of presenting your stance right away.
Your data sampling is flawed, thus it serves no real contribution to your argument. If anything, the Code S statistics proved that the game is balanced as ever.
TvZ: 10-11 (47.6%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 9-11 (45%) [ Games ]
PvT: 16-13 (55.2%) [ Games ]
Now, lets look at the previous season
TvZ: 16-15 (51.6%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 5-14 (26.3%) [ Games ]
PvT: 39-31 (55.7%) [ Games ]
Even though the current sampling size is only 2/3 of the previous seasons (or less), The TvZ winrate is nothing but normal, just like the previous season's. I don't see your point in Queens being extremely overpowered to the degree that Zerg has 74% winrate against terran, far from that.
Am i going to whine about the ZvP winrate? No. Zerg just played poorly that season.
Yes, the queen buff is very strong. But for the love of the god, your personal experience does no matter, mine does not matter. The game is balanced around the highest level of starcraft.
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On June 20 2012 23:50 TolEranceNA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:12 SyrZulu wrote:On June 20 2012 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Such an incredibly biased OP lol. Even the title of the thread is a loaded question. I love how the notable posts he's putting in the OP are only from pro Terran players lol. Also love how in response to the triple cc argument he says "yes that puts the terran even with the zerg but this thread isnt about the lategame", but then when some pro says the lategame is imba the OP switches to "yes the real issue here is the lategame." Such a classic example of fail biased qq that is a knee-jerk reaction to a recent balance change. The only thing sadder is there are 200 replies of more people drawing sweeping conclusions after just one month of this change. Thankfully Blizzard smartly goes by the policy that they'll wait for the metagame smoke to clear before assessing the inherent balance. If only more SC2 players were discerning enough to have learned after 2 years of WoL that you need to give balance changes some time before drawing sweeping conclusions. Im just trying to draw attention to the queen updates because it seems like Terran is having a very tough time even though the change may seem insignificant. instead of picking apart my discussion, why dont you help further the thread by actively participating instead of criticizing? i know i didnt want to discuss lategame, but it keeps coming up so i had to address it. Also, i have been checking the thread and i have not seem any "pro" zerg responses as of yet. I will of course add the zerg responses if any choose to respond. Thanks! Also im going to start streaming for fun if anyone is interested. im in the non-featured. ;P Because it is a poorly constructured OP? You could've just said "What do you think about the Queen Buff after 1 month", instead of presenting your stance right away. Your data sampling is flawed, thus it serves no real contribution to your argument. If anything, the Code S statistics proved that the game is balanced as ever. TvZ: 10-11 (47.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 9-11 (45%) [ Games ] PvT: 16-13 (55.2%) [ Games ] Now, lets look at the previous season TvZ: 16-15 (51.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 5-14 (26.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 39-31 (55.7%) [ Games ] Even though the current sampling size is only 2/3 of the previous seasons (or less), The TvZ winrate is nothing but normal, just like the previous season's. I don't see your point in Queens being extremely overpowered to the degree that Zerg has 74% winrate against terran, far from that. Am i going to whine about the ZvP winrate? No. Zerg just played poorly that season. Yes, the queen buff is very strong. But for the love of the god, your personal experience does no matter, mine does not matter. The game is balanced around the highest level of starcraft.
to be fair at the highest level they say tvz is 20-30% in practice and code s is mainly about controlling nerves
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On June 20 2012 23:50 TolEranceNA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:12 SyrZulu wrote:On June 20 2012 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Such an incredibly biased OP lol. Even the title of the thread is a loaded question. I love how the notable posts he's putting in the OP are only from pro Terran players lol. Also love how in response to the triple cc argument he says "yes that puts the terran even with the zerg but this thread isnt about the lategame", but then when some pro says the lategame is imba the OP switches to "yes the real issue here is the lategame." Such a classic example of fail biased qq that is a knee-jerk reaction to a recent balance change. The only thing sadder is there are 200 replies of more people drawing sweeping conclusions after just one month of this change. Thankfully Blizzard smartly goes by the policy that they'll wait for the metagame smoke to clear before assessing the inherent balance. If only more SC2 players were discerning enough to have learned after 2 years of WoL that you need to give balance changes some time before drawing sweeping conclusions. Im just trying to draw attention to the queen updates because it seems like Terran is having a very tough time even though the change may seem insignificant. instead of picking apart my discussion, why dont you help further the thread by actively participating instead of criticizing? i know i didnt want to discuss lategame, but it keeps coming up so i had to address it. Also, i have been checking the thread and i have not seem any "pro" zerg responses as of yet. I will of course add the zerg responses if any choose to respond. Thanks! Also im going to start streaming for fun if anyone is interested. im in the non-featured. ;P Because it is a poorly constructured OP? You could've just said "What do you think about the Queen Buff after 1 month", instead of presenting your stance right away. Your data sampling is flawed, thus it serves no real contribution to your argument. If anything, the Code S statistics proved that the game is balanced as ever. TvZ: 10-11 (47.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 9-11 (45%) [ Games ] PvT: 16-13 (55.2%) [ Games ] Now, lets look at the previous season TvZ: 16-15 (51.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 5-14 (26.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 39-31 (55.7%) [ Games ] Even though the current sampling size is only 2/3 of the previous seasons (or less), The TvZ winrate is nothing but normal, just like the previous season's. I don't see your point in Queens being extremely overpowered to the degree that Zerg has 74% winrate against terran, far from that. Am i going to whine about the ZvP winrate? No. Zerg just played poorly that season. Yes, the queen buff is very strong. But for the love of the god, your personal experience does no matter, mine does not matter. The game is balanced around the highest level of starcraft.
If anything, these stats show that no buff was needed. And if the balance stays the same but the spectator enjoyment goes from very high to zero, perhaps it was not a good thing...I don't know tho, we'll see
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On June 20 2012 23:44 J_Slim wrote:
people get so stuck on what the 'standard' build is. Meta game shifts and changes. Shift and change with it.
I'm just surprised we havn't seen more Ravens mixed in yet.
And what would Ravens do in the early game rather than be a giant paperweight?
They definitely have great use mid-late game but the issue is making a good use of it's abilities.
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It is also very convenient to look to this season's code S right now for stats if you want to be a queen buff apologist - of course it will look 50-50 when there is a tiny sample size and you've got matches between MVP and line and MKP and Yugioh.
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On June 20 2012 23:53 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:50 TolEranceNA wrote:On June 20 2012 23:12 SyrZulu wrote:On June 20 2012 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Such an incredibly biased OP lol. Even the title of the thread is a loaded question. I love how the notable posts he's putting in the OP are only from pro Terran players lol. Also love how in response to the triple cc argument he says "yes that puts the terran even with the zerg but this thread isnt about the lategame", but then when some pro says the lategame is imba the OP switches to "yes the real issue here is the lategame." Such a classic example of fail biased qq that is a knee-jerk reaction to a recent balance change. The only thing sadder is there are 200 replies of more people drawing sweeping conclusions after just one month of this change. Thankfully Blizzard smartly goes by the policy that they'll wait for the metagame smoke to clear before assessing the inherent balance. If only more SC2 players were discerning enough to have learned after 2 years of WoL that you need to give balance changes some time before drawing sweeping conclusions. Im just trying to draw attention to the queen updates because it seems like Terran is having a very tough time even though the change may seem insignificant. instead of picking apart my discussion, why dont you help further the thread by actively participating instead of criticizing? i know i didnt want to discuss lategame, but it keeps coming up so i had to address it. Also, i have been checking the thread and i have not seem any "pro" zerg responses as of yet. I will of course add the zerg responses if any choose to respond. Thanks! Also im going to start streaming for fun if anyone is interested. im in the non-featured. ;P Because it is a poorly constructured OP? You could've just said "What do you think about the Queen Buff after 1 month", instead of presenting your stance right away. Your data sampling is flawed, thus it serves no real contribution to your argument. If anything, the Code S statistics proved that the game is balanced as ever. TvZ: 10-11 (47.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 9-11 (45%) [ Games ] PvT: 16-13 (55.2%) [ Games ] Now, lets look at the previous season TvZ: 16-15 (51.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 5-14 (26.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 39-31 (55.7%) [ Games ] Even though the current sampling size is only 2/3 of the previous seasons (or less), The TvZ winrate is nothing but normal, just like the previous season's. I don't see your point in Queens being extremely overpowered to the degree that Zerg has 74% winrate against terran, far from that. Am i going to whine about the ZvP winrate? No. Zerg just played poorly that season. Yes, the queen buff is very strong. But for the love of the god, your personal experience does no matter, mine does not matter. The game is balanced around the highest level of starcraft. If anything, these stats show that no buff was needed. And if the balance stays the same but the spectator enjoyment goes from very high to zero, perhaps it was not a good thing...I don't know tho, we'll see
I never said the buff is needed, the OP is just poorly constructed. It needs more samples, more voices from zerg players (even though i didn't see enough), and most important of all. The unbiasness that an OP needs.
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On June 20 2012 23:53 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:50 TolEranceNA wrote:On June 20 2012 23:12 SyrZulu wrote:On June 20 2012 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Such an incredibly biased OP lol. Even the title of the thread is a loaded question. I love how the notable posts he's putting in the OP are only from pro Terran players lol. Also love how in response to the triple cc argument he says "yes that puts the terran even with the zerg but this thread isnt about the lategame", but then when some pro says the lategame is imba the OP switches to "yes the real issue here is the lategame." Such a classic example of fail biased qq that is a knee-jerk reaction to a recent balance change. The only thing sadder is there are 200 replies of more people drawing sweeping conclusions after just one month of this change. Thankfully Blizzard smartly goes by the policy that they'll wait for the metagame smoke to clear before assessing the inherent balance. If only more SC2 players were discerning enough to have learned after 2 years of WoL that you need to give balance changes some time before drawing sweeping conclusions. Im just trying to draw attention to the queen updates because it seems like Terran is having a very tough time even though the change may seem insignificant. instead of picking apart my discussion, why dont you help further the thread by actively participating instead of criticizing? i know i didnt want to discuss lategame, but it keeps coming up so i had to address it. Also, i have been checking the thread and i have not seem any "pro" zerg responses as of yet. I will of course add the zerg responses if any choose to respond. Thanks! Also im going to start streaming for fun if anyone is interested. im in the non-featured. ;P Because it is a poorly constructured OP? You could've just said "What do you think about the Queen Buff after 1 month", instead of presenting your stance right away. Your data sampling is flawed, thus it serves no real contribution to your argument. If anything, the Code S statistics proved that the game is balanced as ever. TvZ: 10-11 (47.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 9-11 (45%) [ Games ] PvT: 16-13 (55.2%) [ Games ] Now, lets look at the previous season TvZ: 16-15 (51.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 5-14 (26.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 39-31 (55.7%) [ Games ] Even though the current sampling size is only 2/3 of the previous seasons (or less), The TvZ winrate is nothing but normal, just like the previous season's. I don't see your point in Queens being extremely overpowered to the degree that Zerg has 74% winrate against terran, far from that. Am i going to whine about the ZvP winrate? No. Zerg just played poorly that season. Yes, the queen buff is very strong. But for the love of the god, your personal experience does no matter, mine does not matter. The game is balanced around the highest level of starcraft. If anything, these stats show that no buff was needed. And if the balance stays the same but the spectator enjoyment goes from very high to zero, perhaps it was not a good thing...I don't know tho, we'll see
So TvZ was balanced before based on this huge sample size. Also if Lennock 2:0 both Terran tommorow we will have broken matchup with 60% winrate. Pach will be needed i think.
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On June 20 2012 23:51 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:50 TolEranceNA wrote:On June 20 2012 23:12 SyrZulu wrote:On June 20 2012 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Such an incredibly biased OP lol. Even the title of the thread is a loaded question. I love how the notable posts he's putting in the OP are only from pro Terran players lol. Also love how in response to the triple cc argument he says "yes that puts the terran even with the zerg but this thread isnt about the lategame", but then when some pro says the lategame is imba the OP switches to "yes the real issue here is the lategame." Such a classic example of fail biased qq that is a knee-jerk reaction to a recent balance change. The only thing sadder is there are 200 replies of more people drawing sweeping conclusions after just one month of this change. Thankfully Blizzard smartly goes by the policy that they'll wait for the metagame smoke to clear before assessing the inherent balance. If only more SC2 players were discerning enough to have learned after 2 years of WoL that you need to give balance changes some time before drawing sweeping conclusions. Im just trying to draw attention to the queen updates because it seems like Terran is having a very tough time even though the change may seem insignificant. instead of picking apart my discussion, why dont you help further the thread by actively participating instead of criticizing? i know i didnt want to discuss lategame, but it keeps coming up so i had to address it. Also, i have been checking the thread and i have not seem any "pro" zerg responses as of yet. I will of course add the zerg responses if any choose to respond. Thanks! Also im going to start streaming for fun if anyone is interested. im in the non-featured. ;P Because it is a poorly constructured OP? You could've just said "What do you think about the Queen Buff after 1 month", instead of presenting your stance right away. Your data sampling is flawed, thus it serves no real contribution to your argument. If anything, the Code S statistics proved that the game is balanced as ever. TvZ: 10-11 (47.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 9-11 (45%) [ Games ] PvT: 16-13 (55.2%) [ Games ] Now, lets look at the previous season TvZ: 16-15 (51.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 5-14 (26.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 39-31 (55.7%) [ Games ] Even though the current sampling size is only 2/3 of the previous seasons (or less), The TvZ winrate is nothing but normal, just like the previous season's. I don't see your point in Queens being extremely overpowered to the degree that Zerg has 74% winrate against terran, far from that. Am i going to whine about the ZvP winrate? No. Zerg just played poorly that season. Yes, the queen buff is very strong. But for the love of the god, your personal experience does no matter, mine does not matter. The game is balanced around the highest level of starcraft. to be fair at the highest level they say tvz is 20-30% in practice and code s is mainly about controlling nerves
20%-30%.Did you heard that from IMMVP?
Also,this season has the best race ratio compare to the previous 2 season where there was only 1 zerg at the round of 8 at Season 1 and no zerg at all at the round of 8 at Season 2.
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IDK, seems like a pretty random buff. Not needed at all because 4queen openers worked just fine earlier (at least they worked for me).
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On June 20 2012 23:50 TolEranceNA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:12 SyrZulu wrote:On June 20 2012 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Such an incredibly biased OP lol. Even the title of the thread is a loaded question. I love how the notable posts he's putting in the OP are only from pro Terran players lol. Also love how in response to the triple cc argument he says "yes that puts the terran even with the zerg but this thread isnt about the lategame", but then when some pro says the lategame is imba the OP switches to "yes the real issue here is the lategame." Such a classic example of fail biased qq that is a knee-jerk reaction to a recent balance change. The only thing sadder is there are 200 replies of more people drawing sweeping conclusions after just one month of this change. Thankfully Blizzard smartly goes by the policy that they'll wait for the metagame smoke to clear before assessing the inherent balance. If only more SC2 players were discerning enough to have learned after 2 years of WoL that you need to give balance changes some time before drawing sweeping conclusions. Im just trying to draw attention to the queen updates because it seems like Terran is having a very tough time even though the change may seem insignificant. instead of picking apart my discussion, why dont you help further the thread by actively participating instead of criticizing? i know i didnt want to discuss lategame, but it keeps coming up so i had to address it. Also, i have been checking the thread and i have not seem any "pro" zerg responses as of yet. I will of course add the zerg responses if any choose to respond. Thanks! Also im going to start streaming for fun if anyone is interested. im in the non-featured. ;P Because it is a poorly constructured OP? You could've just said "What do you think about the Queen Buff after 1 month", instead of presenting your stance right away. Your data sampling is flawed, thus it serves no real contribution to your argument. If anything, the Code S statistics proved that the game is balanced as ever. TvZ: 10-11 (47.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 9-11 (45%) [ Games ] PvT: 16-13 (55.2%) [ Games ] Now, lets look at the previous season TvZ: 16-15 (51.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 5-14 (26.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 39-31 (55.7%) [ Games ] Even though the current sampling size is only 2/3 of the previous seasons (or less), The TvZ winrate is nothing but normal, just like the previous season's. I don't see your point in Queens being extremely overpowered to the degree that Zerg has 74% winrate against terran, far from that. Am i going to whine about the ZvP winrate? No. Zerg just played poorly that season. Yes, the queen buff is very strong. But for the love of the god, your personal experience does no matter, mine does not matter. The game is balanced around the highest level of starcraft.
Just because Zerg got buffed doesn't mean some of the worst Zerg in code S can destroy some of the greatest Terran. If you pair MVP or Supernova against Line or Sniper, you still expect MVP to win. For example, MVP win percent against Line may, hypothetically go from 80% to 60%, he's still favored to win the game. That's the whole point, if you pair people who has the same skills, such as Symbol and MKP, or theStC and Nestea (StC has 74% winrate against Z, while Nestea 57% against Terran), the game shouldn't be so one-sided. Of all the games, Happy was the only one that can go 2-0 against Line, and Terran win are largely depends on the maps, such as Entombed Valley, Antiga Shipyard, or Daybreak.
And see, as your statistics show, the reason there were few zerg in code S last season was because of Protoss, not Terran. Blizzard is destroying TvZ, but people keep saying Zerg is UP in code S while TvZ is not the remote problem.
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On June 20 2012 23:58 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:51 EtherealDeath wrote:On June 20 2012 23:50 TolEranceNA wrote:On June 20 2012 23:12 SyrZulu wrote:On June 20 2012 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Such an incredibly biased OP lol. Even the title of the thread is a loaded question. I love how the notable posts he's putting in the OP are only from pro Terran players lol. Also love how in response to the triple cc argument he says "yes that puts the terran even with the zerg but this thread isnt about the lategame", but then when some pro says the lategame is imba the OP switches to "yes the real issue here is the lategame." Such a classic example of fail biased qq that is a knee-jerk reaction to a recent balance change. The only thing sadder is there are 200 replies of more people drawing sweeping conclusions after just one month of this change. Thankfully Blizzard smartly goes by the policy that they'll wait for the metagame smoke to clear before assessing the inherent balance. If only more SC2 players were discerning enough to have learned after 2 years of WoL that you need to give balance changes some time before drawing sweeping conclusions. Im just trying to draw attention to the queen updates because it seems like Terran is having a very tough time even though the change may seem insignificant. instead of picking apart my discussion, why dont you help further the thread by actively participating instead of criticizing? i know i didnt want to discuss lategame, but it keeps coming up so i had to address it. Also, i have been checking the thread and i have not seem any "pro" zerg responses as of yet. I will of course add the zerg responses if any choose to respond. Thanks! Also im going to start streaming for fun if anyone is interested. im in the non-featured. ;P Because it is a poorly constructured OP? You could've just said "What do you think about the Queen Buff after 1 month", instead of presenting your stance right away. Your data sampling is flawed, thus it serves no real contribution to your argument. If anything, the Code S statistics proved that the game is balanced as ever. TvZ: 10-11 (47.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 9-11 (45%) [ Games ] PvT: 16-13 (55.2%) [ Games ] Now, lets look at the previous season TvZ: 16-15 (51.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 5-14 (26.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 39-31 (55.7%) [ Games ] Even though the current sampling size is only 2/3 of the previous seasons (or less), The TvZ winrate is nothing but normal, just like the previous season's. I don't see your point in Queens being extremely overpowered to the degree that Zerg has 74% winrate against terran, far from that. Am i going to whine about the ZvP winrate? No. Zerg just played poorly that season. Yes, the queen buff is very strong. But for the love of the god, your personal experience does no matter, mine does not matter. The game is balanced around the highest level of starcraft. to be fair at the highest level they say tvz is 20-30% in practice and code s is mainly about controlling nerves 20%-30%.Did you heard that from IMMVP? Also,this season has the best race ratio compare to the previous 2 season where there was only 1 zerg at the round of 8 at Season 1 and no zerg at all at the round of 8 at Season 2.
Race representation in the GSL is not a good measure of balance due to the tiny sample size + prevalence of all-ins/meta-game plays.
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On June 21 2012 00:40 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:58 FakeDeath wrote:On June 20 2012 23:51 EtherealDeath wrote:On June 20 2012 23:50 TolEranceNA wrote:On June 20 2012 23:12 SyrZulu wrote:On June 20 2012 22:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Such an incredibly biased OP lol. Even the title of the thread is a loaded question. I love how the notable posts he's putting in the OP are only from pro Terran players lol. Also love how in response to the triple cc argument he says "yes that puts the terran even with the zerg but this thread isnt about the lategame", but then when some pro says the lategame is imba the OP switches to "yes the real issue here is the lategame." Such a classic example of fail biased qq that is a knee-jerk reaction to a recent balance change. The only thing sadder is there are 200 replies of more people drawing sweeping conclusions after just one month of this change. Thankfully Blizzard smartly goes by the policy that they'll wait for the metagame smoke to clear before assessing the inherent balance. If only more SC2 players were discerning enough to have learned after 2 years of WoL that you need to give balance changes some time before drawing sweeping conclusions. Im just trying to draw attention to the queen updates because it seems like Terran is having a very tough time even though the change may seem insignificant. instead of picking apart my discussion, why dont you help further the thread by actively participating instead of criticizing? i know i didnt want to discuss lategame, but it keeps coming up so i had to address it. Also, i have been checking the thread and i have not seem any "pro" zerg responses as of yet. I will of course add the zerg responses if any choose to respond. Thanks! Also im going to start streaming for fun if anyone is interested. im in the non-featured. ;P Because it is a poorly constructured OP? You could've just said "What do you think about the Queen Buff after 1 month", instead of presenting your stance right away. Your data sampling is flawed, thus it serves no real contribution to your argument. If anything, the Code S statistics proved that the game is balanced as ever. TvZ: 10-11 (47.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 9-11 (45%) [ Games ] PvT: 16-13 (55.2%) [ Games ] Now, lets look at the previous season TvZ: 16-15 (51.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 5-14 (26.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 39-31 (55.7%) [ Games ] Even though the current sampling size is only 2/3 of the previous seasons (or less), The TvZ winrate is nothing but normal, just like the previous season's. I don't see your point in Queens being extremely overpowered to the degree that Zerg has 74% winrate against terran, far from that. Am i going to whine about the ZvP winrate? No. Zerg just played poorly that season. Yes, the queen buff is very strong. But for the love of the god, your personal experience does no matter, mine does not matter. The game is balanced around the highest level of starcraft. to be fair at the highest level they say tvz is 20-30% in practice and code s is mainly about controlling nerves 20%-30%.Did you heard that from IMMVP? Also,this season has the best race ratio compare to the previous 2 season where there was only 1 zerg at the round of 8 at Season 1 and no zerg at all at the round of 8 at Season 2. Race representation in the GSL is not a good measure of balance due to the tiny sample size + prevalence of all-ins/meta-game plays.
Just a quick point on the sample size, today's 2 bo3 changed the ZvT win rate from 33% to 50% 
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It probably should have more time, but in general this one opening thats completely safe against everything and gives you a super strong economy into the late game thing doesn't make for a good games to either watch or to play (unless you just like the winningz). It used to feel really hard on both sides of ZvT but right now it only feels desperate on the terran side. As a random who doesn't play too many games though it can be really hard to know if that's just because you're currently just better at one race or hitting people who are weak on the otherside of the matchup.
The early helion marauder pushes still seem decent but they somehow feel kind gimmicky and generally you trade for the spare queens some lings and maybe a spine rather than any real damage. It's hella weaker now the whole thing (should) happen on acres of creep. If the zerg leaves the creep slaves sitting out on the map you can get the queens for free, but thats just bad play, shift clicking them back after pooping is super easy and doesn't slow the spread rate down much, or indeed at all once there are two active tumours on the go.
I'm getting work done with a fast stim+1 timing straight into double drops, it might be working due to luck and poor responses. Both have done won games and done nothing respectively, but neither have traded horrifically badly and I've been okay for the mid/late game.
QXC natural bunker contains have done well too, a good number of zergs have freaked out and gone 2 base baneling bust, which with an age to respond to thanks to the scout bunker hands me the game. Others however pull 3 drones or make a few lings and shut it down hard, its kinda 2 raxy in that it only really pays off if the zerg ignores it, however on the plus side its not in anyway all-in so you're no worse off if it doesn't work... so may as well try it. I feel it'll fall away as zerg players get used to it and how easy it is to step on. All this at my crappy low level of play mind.
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So we're continuing with the theme of gathering stats that suit our personal viewpoint and championing them as the most accurate and relevant stats available?
Win rates shouldn't really ever be used to show balance as there are so many variables and different circumstances which can alter them one way or another. The numbers just end up used as ammunition in petty arguments like what most of this thread has become.
You cannot trust pro opinion either of course, since they are highly biased and often playing to the fans/crowd. When Stephano said Protoss was weak and needed a buff it didn't mean much. Protoss players that were mad over his Roach max build ran off with the quotes and tried to use them as 'proof' that something was wrong with Protoss and things needed changing. Meanwhile in Korea, the likes of DRG and NesTea were having discussions on how unbeatable Protoss was and how they genuinely don't feel like they have much of a chance in Code S against them. Which pro players did the Protoss complainers choose to believe? Well of course they chose to believe Stephano and ignore DRG/NesTea, because that's the opinion they wanted to hear and the point they wanted to get across.
All those Terran players bitching about Incontrol, Idra and Artosis on SOTG last night are bitching because they disagreed with their personal opinion. They told them things they didn't want to hear and they didn't like it. Had those three had sympathy for Terrans and decided to say that the Queen change was too much you'd have a legion of those very same Terran players who bitched about them, suddenly happy to throw their quotes around as gospel truth.
I personally consider the Queen and Overlord change to have been necessary and important changes to improve the game. There were big problems with TvZ (and there still are of course) and these two changes have rectified some of those issues and equalised the early game a little more. Now that this has been done I think Blizzard can look towards units like the Reaper, the Raven, Battlecruisers and the upgrade system for these units and nudge them a little further back to a more useful position. You could also include the ghost in this as I think they still need to bring snipe back to doing a little bit more damage (but it certainly shouldn't be popping things as easily as it used to). If you really cared about balance in the game you'd be after changes like this, not blind buffs, not crazy overpowered nonsense, just some solid and subtle changes to try and bring some lesser used units back into focus.
Balance in this game is a giant puzzle that will never truly be solved. To even come anywhere near solving it you have to do it in small pieces, gradually and in a controlled fashion.
The game is getting closer and closer to a balanced future and while you may not all like the way it just changed, it will continue to evolve and things will equalise.
Irrational complaints from anybody really isn't the way to improve the game and is often short-sighted and selfish rather than for the greater good and in the name of fairness.
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Was the new buff too much? Maybe. I don't think it broke the game though. I just think Terrans haven't had enough time to figure it out. They will eventually, and if not Blizzard will do something about it.
I don't play Terran, but I'm really curious about Marauder openings vs. that 6 Queen build. Marauders shred through queens pretty quickly and are nice shields for the marines to slaughter lings. I would like to see Terrans go for more bio openings to shut that build down.
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Terren players need to learn how to play mech. Seriously guys.....seriously.....Every build is still viable marine tank etc. but require you to keep the game even not just sit on your ass because these are mid game builds not late game. If you want to turtle and dick a round for 20 min before moving out your going to need mech just like if protoss moves out they need big AOE dmg via collosus or HTs your not special. Terren for too long have relied on just every unit comp being imbalanced but you need to realize you can't just build any mix of units and win when you move out. Mech is really the answer for these QQing terrens and you know what when you whine you don't want to play mech you will quit and better players will take your place because the game requires effort now.
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Another thing to take into consideration is that the queen is useful during all stages of the game. If you make lings, they become a lot less useful later on, while with queens, you will always need larvae, creep, and transfusions for the ultras / brood lords / other queens.
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On June 20 2012 23:44 J_Slim wrote:
people get so stuck on what the 'standard' build is. Meta game shifts and changes. Shift and change with it.
I'm just surprised we havn't seen more Ravens mixed in yet.
Blizzard patches are not natural metagame shifts. If zergs figured out that queens were awesome and went 6 queen builds on their own without any queen change I'd love the change even if terran had a 0% win rate because of it, but the fact is that Blizzard ruined a matchup that was the most balanced and the most entertaining to play and watch for no reason whatsoever and now it's dead in the water. Blizzard basically shat on months hard work of every pro terran player and made lowlevel tvz even harder to play to boot because they felt like it.
This is reason enough to be upset.
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EPT
