EPT1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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DarkInfinity
121 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
Terran would feel less cheated and Zergs would still use their Queen strategies, but Terran would eventually overcome the strategies with something new. | ||
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Tryagain4free
81 Posts
I realy like your passion, and in some earlier comments, I really liked your moderate interpretation of the current state of the game. In your latest post you talk about "the greater good" and overall "fairness". While I personally agree on your opinion about balance beeing a "greater puzzle", I would like to ask you, if such a (surprising) patch like the queen buff did really make the MU "better" in terms of quality, dynamic, variability, back an forth action and even balance? To me, it seems a bit much to ask others (in this case terrans), to suffer the impact of a quite significant change in the game, that seems to confuse all sorts of openings, timings and unit compositions, for the "greater good" (of zerg). And on the topic of terrans beeing unimpressed by the analysis of Idra, Incontrol an Artosis, I am not sure how "convincing" you would find an analysis about PvZ lategame by Painuser, Select and Polt. On the patch itself I would say there would have been much better ways to do it. For example buffing overlord speed alone. Give it some time. Or buff queen range to 4. Give it some time. What do you think? What brings up these strong reactions among the terran community is just based on their experience that they had to face some really heavy an debatable nerfs (i.e.Snipe, Thor), which severly limited terran gameplay. Terran community is simply under the impression, that the balancing has reached a point, where it's just too much to overcome. And for the first time, there are non-terrans who have a similar impression. There is quite a number of zerg and protoss players in this thread, who are finding terran arguemts on this matter quite comprehensible. I am not a terran player, but my impression is; this patch is not "solid and subtile", as you described it in your post. It skips a MU out of balance, which was, troughout the whole community, considered the best in terms of gameplay and balance. It's a bit hard to understand, why ZvT had to be "balanced". What I like are your ideas about this patch beeing some kind of (pre)condition to (re)buff some terran stuff in mid-lategame. Personally, I think this is the way to go. Maybe you find the time to further explain your point of supporting the patch in the current form? | ||
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desarrisc
Canada226 Posts
I think all us Terran players (I'm random-player) should start trying some new strategies vs Zergs. If we all work towards new strategies besides from triple CC or reactor hellion, we might come up with new cool strats to be on even terms with Zerg again. Like I've been trying to get the third expansion up really quick on maps like Cloud Kingdom and entombed valley doing 3 CC and the third being a fast planetary fortress for a MULE farm. And some old school triple techrax reaper pushes while researching stim/combat shield. Regardless we should try new stuff or TvZ will remain a skewed matchup. (Just looking at recent tournament results/TSL4 Qualifiers quarterfinal finishes, it's heavily protoss/zerg) | ||
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SmokeMonster
Canada72 Posts
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antilyon
Brazil2546 Posts
On June 21 2012 01:39 Shiori wrote: Zergs have been going for super-fast Hive + 3/3 these days, so your 17 minute push is going to encounter a wall of BLs. And possibly a really strong roach/bane/ling attack. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On June 21 2012 02:02 SmokeMonster wrote: Oh my gosh! I can't run a bunch of hellions in, burn all the drones and pocket win anymore. Zerg OP. Stop being stupid, professional terran weren't doing this. It only happend when zerg was greedy and didn'(t build the crawler or lings at all. The goal was map control and limitting creep spread. With queens having the same range, hellions don't do anything, creep spread is unchallenged, zerg can skip the crawler, can take a third minutes earlier,, etc In the end the change is huge. | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On June 21 2012 02:00 Zambrah wrote: I bet that if Blizzard reduced the Queen range to 4 every issue would magically go away. Terran would feel less cheated and Zergs would still use their Queen strategies, but Terran would eventually overcome the strategies with something new. I think it's worth giving a shot, at the very least. The jump from 3 range to 5 range was simply too big, and it's a jump blizz usually doesn't make. | ||
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tranmillitary
210 Posts
On June 21 2012 02:02 SmokeMonster wrote: Oh my gosh! I can't run a bunch of hellions in, burn all the drones and pocket win anymore. Zerg OP. so basically... terran can't do anything to Zerg early game now... and every zerg can automatically drone up to 80 now without worry. In late game, broods/infestors kill anything the terran has... when the ghost got nerfed. I hate terran, but they're gettin the shitty end of every patch. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On June 21 2012 02:00 Zambrah wrote: I bet that if Blizzard reduced the Queen range to 4 every issue would magically go away. Terran would feel less cheated and Zergs would still use their Queen strategies, but Terran would eventually overcome the strategies with something new. I was actually saying to reduce it to 4 and was already saying 5 was weird long time ago (when the patch first hit) not that anyone cares if they were to move from 3->4->5 slowly it would've helped terran adjust to these changes better than 3->5 suddenly | ||
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NaEjeOn88
United States134 Posts
Zerg has many all in capabilities and Terran dosnt. Zerg has a much easier time in the matchup thx to Queen range and ovie speed. | ||
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Horseballs
United States721 Posts
On June 21 2012 02:09 zhurai wrote: I was actually saying to reduce it to 4 and was already saying 5 was weird long time ago (when the patch first hit) not that anyone cares if they were to move from 3->4->5 slowly it would've helped terran adjust to these changes better than 3->5 suddenly Or they could've just not buffed queens and stuck with turbolords so zerg doesn't get to dedicate all their larva to drones and get ridiculous creep spread for free. | ||
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Torra
Norway469 Posts
1. TvZ was probably the most balanced and most exciting MU pre-patch. The patch was not necessary at all. 2. Why not try 4 range if they indeed thought that the queen needed abuff? Blizzard have said that they're not gonna make any big changes, but clearly this one was. If terran don't start doing better in a couple weeks, they should at least decrease the range to 4. 3. Basically everyone is fine with the overlord buff. The overlord buff was a nice boost to zerg, while the queen buff was basically gamebreaking. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13426 Posts
Three fast hatch with the queen inject and a 4th macro hatch with a queen there, if the zerg doesn't really miss injects makes it very hard for any other race to really kill the Zerg unless you catch them in an unsafe transition period. Even in PvZ, the majority of protoss wins come off of a 2 base all in that exploits a lack of lair tech with immortal sentry. By the time this all in hits there are roaches with lair done but lair tech options not fully realised. Protoss is able to win with good forcefields on this one attack but other all ins that focus on gate heavy styles really don't see as much success anymore. Likewise, in TvZ, I generally just see Terran win when they are able to get a really strong all in going. The exception being MKP with his high attrition style gameplay that relies super heavily on stupid greedy 3 base and ridiculously good micro and macro. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
In fact it's been sort of a buff to my opening, in a weird way. I never used them just to maintain map control and deny creep spread, I keep making them for a little while with 2rax worth of marines and rally them across the map to put pressure on which has the lucky side effect of making my expansion completely safe and denying creep spread. Zerg's these days are so confident in being able to use 4-5 queens to crush any hellion pressure that they skip making more than 1 spine if that, and often don't even get ling speed early. So when I roll in with 6 hellions and 3 marines with more constantly being rallied it comes as a little bit of a shock to them that I actually can get a lot done. | ||
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SyrZulu
80 Posts
On June 21 2012 01:59 DarkInfinity wrote: I think something people completely forget about making six or so queens is that queens cost MINERALS, and a lot. Three extra queens, if your larva injects are half decent, are worth nine drones, which severely delays getting to around seventy drones where we are comfortable. In Stephano's insanely fast max, he only makes three queens, even though he has four hatcheries (or did at one point), presumably to save minerals. Also, queens offer very good defensive bonuses against many common cheeses, like mass hellion and banshees, they make it hard to put pressure on the opponent in the short term, potentially allowing the opponent to be very greedy against a player making a lot of queens early on. I think when people realize this ZvT will be perfectly fine. No, the queens are NOT worth 9 Drones. Queens DO NOT cost larvae. Even if you cannot build the drones in the early game because of money spent on queens, larvae does not dissapear. Zerg can use this larvae in the early-mid game for more drones when they can afford the larvae. | ||
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bakedace
United States672 Posts
On June 21 2012 02:06 KawaiiRice wrote: its painful reading stuff in this thread from ppl that obviously do not play or understand the game at a high level ~~ like they think all the pros sit around and cry and haven't tried anything new ever since the patch... or that they understand something we never thought of lol says the kid that said "all zergs are losing cause they are bad" back before all the nerfs / buffs. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 21 2012 02:30 bakedace wrote: says the kid that said "all zergs are losing cause they are bad" back before all the nerfs / buffs. It was a fact. I'm not sure what nerfs/buffs you're referring to, but for the past ~6 months at least, this has been the truth. Zergs are losing to all-ins, Archon Toilets, and other mistakes. No Zerg who plays a solid macro game and who scouts all-ins well is losing regularly unless they screw up hard. | ||
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Aphod
United States72 Posts
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