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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
The answer to Zerg is a four letter word. M-E-C-H
I'm a top diamond Zerg, so maybe you guys don't think my post counts for much. But I've seen even pros like TSL_Revival struggle with mech. I don't get it, why don't Terrans try mech? The other day, I played this game on Entombed, and it was against mech. Really struggled all the time, despite Terran gettin his 3rd late. You know what he had after I managed Brood Lords after Mass Roaches transition, he went SKY-TERRAN! Tons of ravens, with vikings and Battlecruisers. I swear I have not seen any Terran play like that.
Why don't people give mech a chance? Just look at Goody.
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On June 21 2012 02:55 ScoSteSal wrote:
um, im sorry, but since any strategy using significant numbers of queens has pathetic ability to put on pressure (invested 300-600 extra mins in something that flat-out cannot attack), so if you scout your opponent going for mass queens why not go 4-5 OC on 2 base with lots of bunkers and/or PF's/good simcity and then go from there?
Because untouched zerg macro has a time were it "explode" while the terran economy grows more regularly. Basically zerg economy and production capabilities are exponential. They peak very quick un-harassed. You can't outgreed a zerg.
You can do what you suggest, you'll just die slower.
Anyway, new builds will emerge, that's sure. People need to remember sc2 short history. Yes, the 111 was "patched" with the immortal range, but just before that the protoss were finally able to defend it correctly most of the time. There are a lot of examples of things that were patched soon after the race on the receiving end finally found a way to play against it. It always happen, and it will happen here again for sure. Usually those problems are still patched afterward tho, cause they degrade the matchup (or in rare case can't be fixed by new builds or better play, like 5 rax reapers).
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Everyone will one day understand the power of marauders. Even though they are being used, I still believe they should be used much more. Mark my words.
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On June 21 2012 02:00 Zambrah wrote:
I bet that if Blizzard reduced the Queen range to 4 every issue would magically go away.
Terran would feel less cheated and Zergs would still use their Queen strategies, but Terran would eventually overcome the strategies with something new.
this wouldnt change anything. roaches have 4 range and u dont kite them with your hellions.
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On June 21 2012 03:10 drumsolo86 wrote:
The answer to Zerg is a four letter word. M-E-C-H
I'm a top diamond Zerg, so maybe you guys don't think my post counts for much. But I've seen even pros like TSL_Revival struggle with mech. I don't get it, why don't Terrans try mech? The other day, I played this game on Entombed, and it was against mech. Really struggled all the time, despite Terran gettin his 3rd late. You know what he had after I managed Brood Lords after Mass Roaches transition, he went SKY-TERRAN! Tons of ravens, with vikings and Battlecruisers. I swear I have not seen any Terran play like that.
Why don't people give mech a chance? Just look at Goody.
An example which kinda contradicts your whole post. Hmmm...
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On June 21 2012 02:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:30 bakedace wrote:On June 21 2012 02:06 KawaiiRice wrote:
its painful reading stuff in this thread from ppl that obviously do not play or understand the game at a high level ~~ like they think all the pros sit around and cry and haven't tried anything new ever since the patch... or that they understand something we never thought of lol says the kid that said "all zergs are losing cause they are bad" back before all the nerfs / buffs. It was a fact. I'm not sure what nerfs/buffs you're referring to, but for the past ~6 months at least, this has been the truth. Zergs are losing to all-ins, Archon Toilets, and other mistakes. No Zerg who plays a solid macro game and who scouts all-ins well is losing regularly unless they screw up hard.
Zergs were losing to all ins because they couldn't scout at all because of what Terrans could accomplish with a tiny amount of hellions, which was the problem that Blizzard wanted to fix with the Queen buff.
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On June 21 2012 03:10 drumsolo86 wrote:
The answer to Zerg is a four letter word. M-E-C-H
I'm a top diamond Zerg, so maybe you guys don't think my post counts for much. But I've seen even pros like TSL_Revival struggle with mech. I don't get it, why don't Terrans try mech? The other day, I played this game on Entombed, and it was against mech. Really struggled all the time, despite Terran gettin his 3rd late. You know what he had after I managed Brood Lords after Mass Roaches transition, he went SKY-TERRAN! Tons of ravens, with vikings and Battlecruisers. I swear I have not seen any Terran play like that.
Why don't people give mech a chance? Just look at Goody.
Because Mech is too volatile,and if you lose your army once,it takes years to remax,while you just hit ROACH button 40 timeas and got it in less than a minute.Going Sky when you got BIO or Mech upgrades in late game is so oo hard.Would wish to see this replay,so if you can post it,I will be verty thankfull and maybe lot of Terrans learn something of all this
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On June 21 2012 03:10 drumsolo86 wrote:
The answer to Zerg is a four letter word. M-E-C-H
I'm a top diamond Zerg, so maybe you guys don't think my post counts for much. But I've seen even pros like TSL_Revival struggle with mech. I don't get it, why don't Terrans try mech? The other day, I played this game on Entombed, and it was against mech. Really struggled all the time, despite Terran gettin his 3rd late. You know what he had after I managed Brood Lords after Mass Roaches transition, he went SKY-TERRAN! Tons of ravens, with vikings and Battlecruisers. I swear I have not seen any Terran play like that.
Why don't people give mech a chance? Just look at Goody.
Lots of pro are tryng mech.
Puma has a nice TvZ mech build. Polt has been playing more Mech, even MMA did it.
But it still feel very weak. It work mainly because people don't know how to react to it.
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On June 21 2012 03:10 drumsolo86 wrote:
The answer to Zerg is a four letter word. M-E-C-H
I'm a top diamond Zerg, so maybe you guys don't think my post counts for much. But I've seen even pros like TSL_Revival struggle with mech. I don't get it, why don't Terrans try mech? The other day, I played this game on Entombed, and it was against mech. Really struggled all the time, despite Terran gettin his 3rd late. You know what he had after I managed Brood Lords after Mass Roaches transition, he went SKY-TERRAN! Tons of ravens, with vikings and Battlecruisers. I swear I have not seen any Terran play like that.
Why don't people give mech a chance? Just look at Goody.
So mech.. sitting back while letting zerg get 80 drones and 5 bases... letting them get broods/infestors... and lose??
There's a reason why you don't go mech vs zerg. MVP is the best player in the world... he lost going mech to suhosin... a 2nd tier zerg. Nuff said.
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On June 21 2012 03:09 Xarow wrote:Show nested quote +"If Zerg is investing so much into queens, Terran can do a Triple Orbital build to get a faster third to get ahead."
- Yes, but this thread is talking about how terran can use their early-midgame army to punish Zerg mass queen. But for the sake of argument, Triple CC is a great build however, the goal of Triple CC is to get ahead economically in the midgame so you can kill the zerg in his lategame. Yes, Kill the Zerg in his LATEGAME. Ironic because lategame is Terrans weakest and Zergs strongest. this is the same thing that zergs go through in PvZ
What? Are you actually suggesting that Protoss has the advantage in PvZ lategame?
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On June 21 2012 03:10 drumsolo86 wrote:
The answer to Zerg is a four letter word. M-E-C-H
I'm a top diamond Zerg, so maybe you guys don't think my post counts for much. But I've seen even pros like TSL_Revival struggle with mech. I don't get it, why don't Terrans try mech? The other day, I played this game on Entombed, and it was against mech. Really struggled all the time, despite Terran gettin his 3rd late. You know what he had after I managed Brood Lords after Mass Roaches transition, he went SKY-TERRAN! Tons of ravens, with vikings and Battlecruisers. I swear I have not seen any Terran play like that.
Why don't people give mech a chance? Just look at Goody.
Wanna know something funny ? EVEN Goody plays Bio a decent amount of times not just in TvP but also in TvZ these days. Mech is not as good as you make it sound.
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TvZ is pretty unwinable at the moment anyway even without the queen buff many of the terran openers just don't seem to cut it anymore..
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On June 21 2012 03:13 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:10 drumsolo86 wrote:
The answer to Zerg is a four letter word. M-E-C-H
I'm a top diamond Zerg, so maybe you guys don't think my post counts for much. But I've seen even pros like TSL_Revival struggle with mech. I don't get it, why don't Terrans try mech? The other day, I played this game on Entombed, and it was against mech. Really struggled all the time, despite Terran gettin his 3rd late. You know what he had after I managed Brood Lords after Mass Roaches transition, he went SKY-TERRAN! Tons of ravens, with vikings and Battlecruisers. I swear I have not seen any Terran play like that.
Why don't people give mech a chance? Just look at Goody. An example which kinda contradicts your whole post. Hmmm...
If I may, I think there is a lot of whining about the TvZ match up and all. And I was almost inclined to agree with you when I saw how skewed the matchup is, 74% at pro level is quite a bit! However, people are not trying out new stuff to deal with the game. The meta-game is evolving so slowly and I think the post about SOTG (when Artosis said pros have less time to figure out new strats to deal with the situtation because there are just too many touraments now for people to experiment new stuff.)
Look at PvZ. Stephano's mass roach style is figured out slowly by people. A once dominant build now countered so heavily immortal sentry. But THE FACT IS PEOPLE ARE FIGURING OUT NEW BUILDS. Look at Dimaga at Dreamhack - his bling/ling style crushing Protoss armies. Look at TSLSymbol, bringing out the blings and quick Ultras to crush forcefields, annihilating Protoss once-feared Colossus-backed deathballs. Really the game is evolving all the time.
The other day, I was watching Destiny play. Ok some guys don't really like him but he was figuring out a build when in ZvZ, you can go 14gas14pool against 15 hatch and still be relatively on equal standing, or if not ahead. Really credit to him, because I think despite all the BM, he's someone who works on creating new stuff and making new builds work instead of playing the game to death on old builds. Don't forget he was the one who really made the infestor build work out, when Zergs were doing muta-bling all the time.
What do you guys think?
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On June 21 2012 03:09 Xarow wrote:Show nested quote +"If Zerg is investing so much into queens, Terran can do a Triple Orbital build to get a faster third to get ahead."
- Yes, but this thread is talking about how terran can use their early-midgame army to punish Zerg mass queen. But for the sake of argument, Triple CC is a great build however, the goal of Triple CC is to get ahead economically in the midgame so you can kill the zerg in his lategame. Yes, Kill the Zerg in his LATEGAME. Ironic because lategame is Terrans weakest and Zergs strongest. this is the same thing that zergs go through in PvZ
Except that you know, it isn't. Both P and Z have strong endgame compositions in PvZ, where who wins largely comes down to decisions and control. Terran isn't built like that and is entirely dependant on establishing a lead through some kind of timing early on in both TvP and TvZ, timings which then get nerfed into oblivion because they're considered too strong. P and Z timings remain untouched however.
The queen buff combined with the overlord speed in 1 patch was too much. Blizzard should have added the ovie speed, see how that affected the game, and if they were still not satisfied then experiment with queens.
(As for people referencing SotG, they have never had an actual terran player as part of their 'team' and have always favored Z/P thanks to the players on SotG that feel their own race is underpowered. Even Artosis, while being a great caster, obviously doesn't have the understanding of terran that he has of both the races he actually plays/played himself. Just look at most pro terran opinions and see how they aren't exactly represented. Not to mention that people with a casting career can't exactly come out and proclaim a certain match-up BS, while happily casting it the next day.)
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On June 21 2012 03:17 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:10 drumsolo86 wrote:
The answer to Zerg is a four letter word. M-E-C-H
I'm a top diamond Zerg, so maybe you guys don't think my post counts for much. But I've seen even pros like TSL_Revival struggle with mech. I don't get it, why don't Terrans try mech? The other day, I played this game on Entombed, and it was against mech. Really struggled all the time, despite Terran gettin his 3rd late. You know what he had after I managed Brood Lords after Mass Roaches transition, he went SKY-TERRAN! Tons of ravens, with vikings and Battlecruisers. I swear I have not seen any Terran play like that.
Why don't people give mech a chance? Just look at Goody. Lots of pro are tryng mech. Puma has a nice TvZ mech build. Polt has been playing more Mech, even MMA did it. But it still feel very weak. It work mainly because people don't know how to react to it.
I agree, but every build has its weaknesses. Right now, the few options I think of fighting mech most by what I've seen pros do is overlord dropping and hitting multiple locations with roaches (LiquidRet) and nyduses. (TSLSymbol). BroodLords struggle when Terran has >5 Thors.
I think mech struggles a little in the earlier part when tanks numbers are low and Zerg really starts trading early, but the thing is mech is extremely cost-efficient. If you fight till late and minerals are busted at the near game, you realise things tilt slowly to your advantage when your army doesn't die that often and you have a huge bank.
Having said that, how do you think Zergs should react to mech correctly then? I understand mass roaches, sometimes mixed with banelings for the mid-game, and Hive tech for the late game is what I see most Zergs do.
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[QUOTE]On June 21 2012 03:26 drumsolo86 wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 21 2012 03:17 Noocta wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 21 2012 03:10 drumsolo86 wrote:
The answer to Zerg is a four letter word. M-E-C-H
I'm a top diamond Zerg, so maybe you guys don't think my post counts for much. But I've seen even pros like TSL_Revival struggle with mech. I don't get it, why don't Terrans try mech? The other day, I played this game on Entombed, and it was against mech. Really struggled all the time, despite Terran gettin his 3rd late. You know what he had after I managed Brood Lords after Mass Roaches transition, he went SKY-TERRAN! Tons of ravens, with vikings and Battlecruisers. I swear I have not seen any Terran play like that.
Why don't people give mech a chance? Just look at Goody.[/QUOTE]
Lots of pro are tryng mech.
Puma has a nice TvZ mech build. Polt has been playing more Mech, even MMA did it.
But it still feel very weak. It work mainly because people don't know how to react to it.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but every build has its weaknesses. Right now, the few options I think of fighting mech most by what I've seen pros do is overlord dropping and hitting multiple locations with roaches (LiquidRet) and nyduses. (TSLSymbol). BroodLords struggle when Terran has >5 Thors.
I think mech struggles a little in the earlier part when tanks numbers are low and Zerg really starts trading early, but the thing is mech is extremely cost-efficient. If you fight till late and minerals are busted at the near game, you realise things tilt slowly to your advantage when your army doesn't die that often and you have a huge bank
Maybe you realise how often you were using the word "if" by describing the power of mech play.
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Well we will never find out. A new buff or nerf will come and murk the waters again. Just as we never found out whether anything else was truly OP because blizzard nerfed it all to the ground. Imo, they destroyed this game with their so called 'balance'-patches and bad game design in the first place.
Was 5sec faster zeals OP? what about bunker times? Reapers? Tanks? Old festor? old dropship speed? roach supply?
we. will. never. know.
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On June 21 2012 03:12 Gardel wrote:
Everyone will one day understand the power of marauders. Even though they are being used, I still believe they should be used much more. Mark my words.
The power to die to a handful of lings. I'm guessing you play Protoss, bronze league.
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On June 21 2012 03:10 drumsolo86 wrote:
The answer to Zerg is a four letter word. M-E-C-H
I'm a top diamond Zerg, so maybe you guys don't think my post counts for much. But I've seen even pros like TSL_Revival struggle with mech. I don't get it, why don't Terrans try mech? The other day, I played this game on Entombed, and it was against mech. Really struggled all the time, despite Terran gettin his 3rd late. You know what he had after I managed Brood Lords after Mass Roaches transition, he went SKY-TERRAN! Tons of ravens, with vikings and Battlecruisers. I swear I have not seen any Terran play like that.
Why don't people give mech a chance? Just look at Goody.
im high master terran and i play a fair amount of zerg in ladder and i love playing against mech because its a freewin for me. as a terran, i basically know all the weaknesses of mech and just abuse it
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On June 21 2012 03:15 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:31 Shiori wrote:On June 21 2012 02:30 bakedace wrote:On June 21 2012 02:06 KawaiiRice wrote:
its painful reading stuff in this thread from ppl that obviously do not play or understand the game at a high level ~~ like they think all the pros sit around and cry and haven't tried anything new ever since the patch... or that they understand something we never thought of lol says the kid that said "all zergs are losing cause they are bad" back before all the nerfs / buffs. It was a fact. I'm not sure what nerfs/buffs you're referring to, but for the past ~6 months at least, this has been the truth. Zergs are losing to all-ins, Archon Toilets, and other mistakes. No Zerg who plays a solid macro game and who scouts all-ins well is losing regularly unless they screw up hard. Zergs were losing to all ins because they couldn't scout at all because of what Terrans could accomplish with a tiny amount of hellions, which was the problem that Blizzard wanted to fix with the Queen buff.
You mean the OV buff? What does the queen buff do to scout an all in?
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EPT
