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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 20 2012 14:30 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 14:24 johnnywup wrote:
still too early to tell imo, terrans need to learn different openers besides hellions which they haven't really yet The Terran race has used some of the most innovative and diverse strategies and openers. Reaper openers, nerfed. All sort of Marine-Aggro 2Rax builds, nerfed Rax Build time/Bunker Build Time/Stim Timing. Banshee openers -> Quicker Spore Root. Hellion BF Nerf. Now a Queen buff to deal with as well. And keep in mind, these are just the opening builds that were affected. This isn't even including the Siege Tank nerfs, Ghost nerf, Thor nerf. I have to say with all the "Let the metagame play out, they'll learn out to adapt". Terrans have adapted many times throughout most of the patches to changes (read: Nerfs). But once anything that is remotely even decent is found, it's nerfed into the ground.
just because a strategy is nerfed doesn't make it useless...it makes it balanced. unless you're only looking to use overpowered strategies that give you easy wins.
there are a few nerfs that when looked at right now look like they destroyed a strategy such as reaper, thor, and ghost nerfs. however, we do see small uses for these units still despite their rare occurance. also the game is still young so who knows if there will be a resurgeance later.
on topic, i think the ghost can be rebuffed which may help in the vP mu as well. and if thats not enough we can try queen range 4.
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Yeah, tvz is painful right now. I don't know if there are detailed stats available somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that in master-grandmaster league games, most tvz's that go past the 15 minute mark are won by zerg. The only thing a terran could do to beat an equally skilled zerg is try to get ahead early by following some gimmicky strategy that may or may not pay off. The ghost nerf was the prime factor that lead to this situation but the queen buff is just the nail in the coffin (as it's even harder for T to get that early advantage).
Mech doesn't help very much either. Yes, the late-game army of Terran is stronger but u fall behind in economy tremendously, while the zerg controls pretty much all the map. Unless the zerg screws up really bad and trades his whole army for nothing, the 2nd army (all the banked larva) will surely clean up what's left. Even if THAT doesn't work out, the zerg can still afford to lose 1 expansion or 2 as it is certain that the T will be at least 2-3 bases behind. I agree that mech might stand better chances against late-game zerg, but it's also much much harder to master (1 small positioning mistake at any point will cost you the game, and mech games clearly aint 10-minute games).
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On June 20 2012 23:24 mrlie3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:04 Beyond Magic wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 22:24 mrlie3 wrote:
Great OP, but one thing is missing in this: Overlord speed buff.
If you look at both queen range buff and overlord speed buff independently, they seem okay for balancing and only fixes minor issues: better protection against early aggression and better scouting. However, I think overlord buff had a MAJOR effect on TvZ as it compliments queen buffs. How?
First, as OP said, queen range buff enabled zerg to mass up queens without sacrificing drone productions, so zerg can get ahead in mid and late games. Then what strategy can terran do to KILL this mass queen no gas 3 hatch strategy? Yes, as OP also mentioned, it is any forms of allin from terran. eg. 1111 proxy rax scv allin, mass hellion allin, marauder/hellion allin, 4+ rax allin etc. All of these strategy punishes zerg for delaying gas and not getting any speedlings and/or banelings to counter them.
Now here comes the funny part: overlord speed buff enabled zerg to scout these allins much, much easier! So any sensible zergs, upon scouting most of these allins, will make spine crawlers and lings instead of drones to anticipate the allin, defend with 6+ queens, and win the game. So as you can see, two buffs, when it seemed okay individually, basically broke the current TvZ metagame. If terran has no way of punishing zerg going economic cheese, then its only option is now tripple CC build, which ironically is super weak to any zerg allins. Even without allins, zergs can now comfortably play zvt knowing that terran only has this build against theirs, so they will almost always force zvt to be late game scenario, which generally favours zerg.
And as stalife said, infestors are way, way too efficient unit in the mid game. So guess what? zergs now have, when played decently, has very high chance of defending early-game allins with queen, mid-game aggression with infestors, and win late-game with broodlord/corruptor/infestor composition. As many code S pros pointed out, terran cannot win against zerg if they are on equal level of skills for this particular reason.
I sincerely hope there is at least some buff to terran or rollback of queen range (or even to 4, so we can AT LEAST kite them) or nerf of infestor in the future. Even with the overlord upgrade speed its difficult to scout T base if they are ready for it. the overlord scoutting routes are pretty standard, usually 1 or 2 options where the overlords are coming from, you only need 2 marines per direction to stop them completely. this is something where terrans dont really put any effort on to, mostly because they never had to since prepatch overlords were slow as hell and denying that was easy. compare this shit to ZvP where zerg has to scout every corner from 50% of the map for probes/ proxy pylons. Terran needs 2-4 marines, with 4 of em you just place them to key location and you dont even have to anything yourself anymore. with 2 you might need to move them every now and then and look at the minimap. I garantee that these initial scouting overlords wont be a problem if you put as much effort on moving your marines as zergs put on zerlings when playing ZvP, also doing shit like lifting buildings to kill overlords from high locations. Well I am actually one of those diligent terran who scouts the map searching for overlords and zerglings with my marines. (I've often gotten shits from zergs claiming I maphack when I got lucky lol) and I can tell you with certainty that after speed buff, in some maps this is NOT possible to do at all. I understand that you're drawing analogy with zergs scouting diligently for probes with zerglings. Problem is, probe is ground unit and overlord is air unit. Before the patch, either with proxy rax and lifting it with 2 marines or scouting with your initial marines to where overlord pathing might be could net you 1 or 2 overlord kills. After the patch, however, maps like cloud kingdom, antiga shipyard, and daybreak has a spot for overlord to safely run away from initial marine scouting, EVEN WITH floating rax! You can try it yourself with a friend and you will know where: eg. empty space over the nat in cloud kingdom, empty space beside the main gas geyser at antiga (cross), empty space beside both main and nat in daybreak - list goes on. Marines were able to snipe the overlord before the patch with good luck because overlord was too slow to reach these locations, but now even with proxy rax, they can safely arrive there. And proxy rax is a big risk for terran as well, and if you cannot kill overlord with it, you are starting with delayed hellion production. And guess what, these overlords are the ones that can safely scout terran allins minutes later! =(
i dont see the problem, i mean cmon, even in cloud kingdom,ok you get overlord to good position but what can you really see, expansion,possible gasses and workers.. but you dont get to see anything important, like the production facilities and the units coming out of em, if you have some marines there you cant even get to the ramp to see whats in the main base.
Sure you can see the units moving out but thats something that you can see with ling scout as well.
and like you said, prepatch you couldnt even get overlord into that position.
in antiga you just cant scout, the overlord is always behind the main base, its only place where you can keep your overlord safe early, you can try lucking overlord by going middle of the map and go in from the side.
Only think this patch allowed was to get initial overlords to decent positions without risk of dying while your at 24 supply.
Also Terrans who dont hunt these overlords get punished harder by zerg getting better scout.
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In all seriousness, I think we need more time to tell. It spawned a new element into the game that influenced the meta game. Once terrans work around what queens are effective at I think that we will see this 4 queen style diminish slightly.
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I tried Raven out for the first time today, and it worked pretty well. Denied the third forever, and PDD assisted my Banshees in taking out 3 queens even with Transfuse, and granted me map control that zerg couldn't afford to contest until he had Mutas going, which would help me further because of the gas/mineral investment required. By the time Zerg got his third up, I was working on my 4th and 5th bases. Now I don't know how effective this would be at Masters/GM, but at least in high Diamond, it seems to work pretty well.
The only thing that worries me is if I read the zerg wrong and he goes all-in; that 600 gas that I spent on denying his third would help very little in attempting to mitigate losses or losing completely since I'm not investing in marauders and siege tech just yet.
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As a low level player, this patch does not really affect me.
What I don't want is a norush10 metagame between T&Z like PvZ. It used to be the best macthup by very very far. Now I'm nearly considering the best matchups are mirrors, as they're more often back&forth.
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On June 20 2012 15:52 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +i noticed that Terran cannot win against Zerg unless they are A LOT more skilled and better than their Zerg opponents. Stop flattering yourselves, this is absolutely false and its getting really annoying seeing it pop up everywhere. Terrans haven't figured out how to adjust yet is all. These things don't stay like this for very long because good players don't whine like all the common ladder people. They figure out ways to get past the "imba". Then again, maybe that's why they're pros and we're just scrubs. *Edit* (Reason: Because this is just too sad... I can't believe I'm still seeing this) Show nested quote +Sambobly wrote: Talking about TLPD winrates. Since patch something like 74% winrate zvt. I'm quoting this so it can't be edited away. Now quoting ZvT international rates (yes all you non-Koreans are international, not Korea) from your own sourceTerran vs Zerg stat from TLPD May 2012 chart: Terran: 45.1%Zerg: 54.9%I'll stick up for what this guy said. wtf are you babbling about 74% winrate.
I think in a spoiler near the bottom of the link there is a stat which reflects a 74% win rate post-patch; and I believe the queen patch occurred during the month.
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On June 21 2012 04:25 WhalesFromSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 15:52 sCCrooked wrote:i noticed that Terran cannot win against Zerg unless they are A LOT more skilled and better than their Zerg opponents. Stop flattering yourselves, this is absolutely false and its getting really annoying seeing it pop up everywhere. Terrans haven't figured out how to adjust yet is all. These things don't stay like this for very long because good players don't whine like all the common ladder people. They figure out ways to get past the "imba". Then again, maybe that's why they're pros and we're just scrubs. *Edit* (Reason: Because this is just too sad... I can't believe I'm still seeing this) Sambobly wrote: Talking about TLPD winrates. Since patch something like 74% winrate zvt. I'm quoting this so it can't be edited away. Now quoting ZvT international rates (yes all you non-Koreans are international, not Korea) from your own sourceTerran vs Zerg stat from TLPD May 2012 chart: Terran: 45.1%Zerg: 54.9%I'll stick up for what this guy said. wtf are you babbling about 74% winrate. I think in a spoiler near the bottom of the link there is a stat which reflects a 74% win rate post-patch; and I believe the queen patch occurred during the month.
yeah
to give a more accurate winrate of tvz after the patch:
[–]sheltered 27 points 7 hours ago*
I can give you TvZ from the GSL up and downs, the GSL qualifiers, and the GSTL if that helps?
There have been 112 games total played, Zerg have won 83 of them while Terran have won 29, giving Zergs about a 74% win rate.
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As a zerg player, I think the energy buff was better than the range buff. The problem with the energy buff was faster creep spread, the problem with the range buff is that hellion openings are dulled a bit. 6-8 queen openings are just utterly dumb and terrans are QQ-ing about it, they don't realize that 6-8 queen openings delay your Lair significantly if you're on 2 bases.
Besides, 2 hellions aren't meant to stop 2 queens creep spreading. Terrans just don't know how to transition to gas builds and abandon their OP marines to deal with late game zerg. Just give it time and everything would balance out.
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Try mech. You can start here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972
Also, look through these vods where Major goes Mech against Korean GM-level Zergs: http://www.twitch.tv/sixjaxterran/videos
He suggests Mech on maps that can be split in half. The way he does Mech is fucking beautiful, and it absolutely destroys Infestor/Brood compositions in the late game. Sometimes he'll lose, but guess what? Losing is a part of the game.
Before you (people that don't play the game, but just whine on TL all day) say "he's not Mvp", if you play against him, he'll probably rip your asshole in two. I wouldn't want that because then you'll be spewing even more shit on these forums.
If you're not getting paid to play this game, why are you whining so god damn much? (you know who you are)
less QQ, more pew pew
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Bisutopia19240 Posts
From what I've seen in games recently or played on my own is that the queen range really mitigates medivac drops more effectively. So even a rushed hellion drop is easier to prevent. Which is a strategy when invested in and played right should do some damage to the economy. However, since the queen can now handle hellions and medivacs in the early game it does limit some possible strategies.
What is the potential for a terran to start using pure Marauders more effectively as a harass tool instead of hellions? I know it soaks up a lot of gas, but they could take down the queens and spines effectively and be a pain to deal with.
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On June 21 2012 03:44 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 14:30 Eps wrote:On June 20 2012 14:24 johnnywup wrote:
still too early to tell imo, terrans need to learn different openers besides hellions which they haven't really yet The Terran race has used some of the most innovative and diverse strategies and openers. Reaper openers, nerfed. All sort of Marine-Aggro 2Rax builds, nerfed Rax Build time/Bunker Build Time/Stim Timing. Banshee openers -> Quicker Spore Root. Hellion BF Nerf. Now a Queen buff to deal with as well. And keep in mind, these are just the opening builds that were affected. This isn't even including the Siege Tank nerfs, Ghost nerf, Thor nerf. I have to say with all the "Let the metagame play out, they'll learn out to adapt". Terrans have adapted many times throughout most of the patches to changes (read: Nerfs). But once anything that is remotely even decent is found, it's nerfed into the ground. just because a strategy is nerfed doesn't make it useless...it makes it balanced. unless you're only looking to use overpowered strategies that give you easy wins. there are a few nerfs that when looked at right now look like they destroyed a strategy such as reaper, thor, and ghost nerfs. however, we do see small uses for these units still despite their rare occurance. also the game is still young so who knows if there will be a resurgeance later. on topic, i think the ghost can be rebuffed which may help in the vP mu as well. and if thats not enough we can try queen range 4.
Because blizzard balance patches are always so well thought out.
Oh wait... better nerf rogues even more.
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pls leave blizz patch politics from other games out of this it´s becoming a shitstorm
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How is this thread 24 pages? Is the OP some pro I don't know? I thought TL closed balance whine threads.... Wait..... Checking.... nope... no one was accused of saying "nigger" on stream so this isn't the standard TL thread.
Seriously: before patch if a Zerg was like "let's buff the queen to stop hellions" the thread would be tanked. So why are we still talking about this. Either let's open the can on balance or close this down.
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On June 21 2012 04:47 BisuDagger wrote:
From what I've seen in games recently or played on my own is that the queen range really mitigates medivac drops more effectively. So even a rushed hellion drop is easier to prevent. Which is a strategy when invested in and played right should do some damage to the economy. However, since the queen can now handle hellions and medivacs in the early game it does limit some possible strategies.
What is the potential for a terran to start using pure Marauders more effectively as a harass tool instead of hellions? I know it soaks up a lot of gas, but they could take down the queens and spines effectively and be a pain to deal with.
People don't use Marauders not because they're gas heavy - they're not. People don't use them in drops versus Zerg because they get wrecked by Lings.
I'm also not sure where all this "Marauders are good against Queen BS" is coming from. Queens are a Bio-Psionic Unit, they have no Armour Attribute at all. Marauders are an anti-armour unit.
The only time they appear to be good is when Queens are running away and Concussive holds them back.
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GSTL Season 2
Terran win: 3
Zerg win: 14
Win rate: 17.6%
GSL Season 3
Terran win: 13
Zerg win: 22
Win rate: 37.1%
In sum
Total played: 52
Terran win: 16
Zerg win: 36
Win rate: 30.7%
OK. Someone may argue that there are better Zerg players in GSL and GSTL like DRG, Nestea, and Symbol in this season. So let's see what does the win rate look like if we remove all their games from calculation.
There are 6 Symbol games, and 6 wins for him in both GSL and GSTL.
There are 2 DRG games, and 2 wins for him in both GSL and GSTL.
There are 2 Nestea games, and 2 wins for him in both GSL and GSTL.
In other words, these three Zerg players have 100% win rate in ZvT. But It's ok because they are the best in their skills. So maybe that's why Zerg won so much because these strong Zerg players outclass other players. So let's see if we remove their games from the calculation, what does the win rate look like.
If you remove all the DRG, Nestea, and Symbol games from the calculation, TvZ win rate is 38.1% [16 / (52-10) = 38.1%]
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Source:
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=Z&season=0&leaguetype=50&leagueid=27063&gamever=0&mapid=0
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=Z&season=0&leaguetype=20&leagueid=27064&gamever=0&mapid=0
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You flipped GSL and GSTL there
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On June 21 2012 03:54 kyriores wrote:
Yeah, tvz is painful right now. I don't know if there are detailed stats available somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that in master-grandmaster league games, most tvz's that go past the 15 minute mark are won by zerg. The only thing a terran could do to beat an equally skilled zerg is try to get ahead early by following some gimmicky strategy that may or may not pay off. The ghost nerf was the prime factor that lead to this situation but the queen buff is just the nail in the coffin (as it's even harder for T to get that early advantage).
Mech doesn't help very much either. Yes, the late-game army of Terran is stronger but u fall behind in economy tremendously, while the zerg controls pretty much all the map. Unless the zerg screws up really bad and trades his whole army for nothing, the 2nd army (all the banked larva) will surely clean up what's left. Even if THAT doesn't work out, the zerg can still afford to lose 1 expansion or 2 as it is certain that the T will be at least 2-3 bases behind. I agree that mech might stand better chances against late-game zerg, but it's also much much harder to master (1 small positioning mistake at any point will cost you the game, and mech games clearly aint 10-minute games).
Oh Terran's could do what Protoss and Zerg before them had to do. Innovate, find strategies that can get the to win and break this early game no aggression time frame. Most of last year Terrans won everything they just flat out decimated the other two races until they figured out strategies that countered Terran aggression like they have now. Terran's aren't the only one's who ever get nerfed and the other races found ways around it just like Terran did per-say for the ghost EMP nerf. In the beginning it was "omg ghosts so useless we autolose" but then Terran's figured a way around that just like they will the queen range. It's new you need to give it time for the other races to figure out how to counter it rather then complain for a month straight about it.
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The thing is that, terran has to basically take huge risks early game in order to keep up with the zerg. All zerg really has to do is add a roach waren and if they see a cc first, 2 base roach at 6:30 and win the game basically. It's gotten pretty bad. The only reason it doesn't seem to be so imbalanced is because terran takes those risks and zerg don't act on it. In ladder, i've goten 2 base pushed by zerg a few times and lost every one. I can't do a less greedier build to be ready for the 15% that don't macro.
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On June 21 2012 05:13 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:54 kyriores wrote:
Yeah, tvz is painful right now. I don't know if there are detailed stats available somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that in master-grandmaster league games, most tvz's that go past the 15 minute mark are won by zerg. The only thing a terran could do to beat an equally skilled zerg is try to get ahead early by following some gimmicky strategy that may or may not pay off. The ghost nerf was the prime factor that lead to this situation but the queen buff is just the nail in the coffin (as it's even harder for T to get that early advantage).
Mech doesn't help very much either. Yes, the late-game army of Terran is stronger but u fall behind in economy tremendously, while the zerg controls pretty much all the map. Unless the zerg screws up really bad and trades his whole army for nothing, the 2nd army (all the banked larva) will surely clean up what's left. Even if THAT doesn't work out, the zerg can still afford to lose 1 expansion or 2 as it is certain that the T will be at least 2-3 bases behind. I agree that mech might stand better chances against late-game zerg, but it's also much much harder to master (1 small positioning mistake at any point will cost you the game, and mech games clearly aint 10-minute games). Oh Terran's could do what Protoss and Zerg before them had to do. Innovate, find strategies that can get the to win and break this early game no aggression time frame. Most of last year Terrans won everything they just flat out decimated the other two races until they figured out strategies that countered Terran aggression like they have now. Terran's aren't the only one's who ever get nerfed and the other races found ways around it just like Terran did per-say for the ghost EMP nerf. In the beginning it was "omg ghosts so useless we autolose" but then Terran's figured a way around that just like they will the queen range. It's new you need to give it time for the other races to figure out how to counter it rather then complain for a month straight about it.
Innovate into what exactly ? Aggreesion builds are alot worse with the new Queen range and Terran lategame is still very bad considering how hard it is to transition into and how expensive it is.
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EPT
