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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 21 2012 05:17 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 05:13 Catatonic wrote:On June 21 2012 03:54 kyriores wrote:
Yeah, tvz is painful right now. I don't know if there are detailed stats available somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that in master-grandmaster league games, most tvz's that go past the 15 minute mark are won by zerg. The only thing a terran could do to beat an equally skilled zerg is try to get ahead early by following some gimmicky strategy that may or may not pay off. The ghost nerf was the prime factor that lead to this situation but the queen buff is just the nail in the coffin (as it's even harder for T to get that early advantage).
Mech doesn't help very much either. Yes, the late-game army of Terran is stronger but u fall behind in economy tremendously, while the zerg controls pretty much all the map. Unless the zerg screws up really bad and trades his whole army for nothing, the 2nd army (all the banked larva) will surely clean up what's left. Even if THAT doesn't work out, the zerg can still afford to lose 1 expansion or 2 as it is certain that the T will be at least 2-3 bases behind. I agree that mech might stand better chances against late-game zerg, but it's also much much harder to master (1 small positioning mistake at any point will cost you the game, and mech games clearly aint 10-minute games). Oh Terran's could do what Protoss and Zerg before them had to do. Innovate, find strategies that can get the to win and break this early game no aggression time frame. Most of last year Terrans won everything they just flat out decimated the other two races until they figured out strategies that countered Terran aggression like they have now. Terran's aren't the only one's who ever get nerfed and the other races found ways around it just like Terran did per-say for the ghost EMP nerf. In the beginning it was "omg ghosts so useless we autolose" but then Terran's figured a way around that just like they will the queen range. It's new you need to give it time for the other races to figure out how to counter it rather then complain for a month straight about it. Innovate into what exactly ? Aggreesion builds are alot worse with the new Queen range and Terran lategame is still very bad considering how hard it is to transition into and how expensive it is.
SkyTerran, MKP style. TvZ looks imbalanced right now. If SkyTerran doesn't work, I think Blizzard should revert the patch, but until then there is still wiggle-room.
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On June 21 2012 05:13 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:54 kyriores wrote:
Yeah, tvz is painful right now. I don't know if there are detailed stats available somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that in master-grandmaster league games, most tvz's that go past the 15 minute mark are won by zerg. The only thing a terran could do to beat an equally skilled zerg is try to get ahead early by following some gimmicky strategy that may or may not pay off. The ghost nerf was the prime factor that lead to this situation but the queen buff is just the nail in the coffin (as it's even harder for T to get that early advantage).
Mech doesn't help very much either. Yes, the late-game army of Terran is stronger but u fall behind in economy tremendously, while the zerg controls pretty much all the map. Unless the zerg screws up really bad and trades his whole army for nothing, the 2nd army (all the banked larva) will surely clean up what's left. Even if THAT doesn't work out, the zerg can still afford to lose 1 expansion or 2 as it is certain that the T will be at least 2-3 bases behind. I agree that mech might stand better chances against late-game zerg, but it's also much much harder to master (1 small positioning mistake at any point will cost you the game, and mech games clearly aint 10-minute games). Oh Terran's could do what Protoss and Zerg before them had to do. Innovate, find strategies that can get the to win and break this early game no aggression time frame. Most of last year Terrans won everything they just flat out decimated the other two races until they figured out strategies that countered Terran aggression like they have now. Terran's aren't the only one's who ever get nerfed and the other races found ways around it just like Terran did per-say for the ghost EMP nerf. In the beginning it was "omg ghosts so useless we autolose" but then Terran's figured a way around that just like they will the queen range. It's new you need to give it time for the other races to figure out how to counter it rather then complain for a month straight about it.
People that don't understand the Terran race, have forgotten all the strategies that were used in the past. All sorts of Marine aggression 2Rax pressure/economic builds. Hellion builds. Hellion drops with Marines. Banshees, Reapers.
To keep this discussion purely on Zerg. It's not that they just happened to learn how to deal with these changes. Blizzard came along and patched it.
I posted a list of all the nerfs that Terran have experienced.
To reiterate, Terran pressure has gotten more difficult for various reasons.
Supply before Barracks <-For Reaper but it is related.
Barracks build time
Bunker build time
Stim Research timing increase <- 30 Seconds. 170secs is extremely long for any Non Weapon/Armour Upgrade research
Blue Flame Nerf <- Related more to TvT but still it affects TvZ
Spore Root Timing -> Affects Banshees
Now the Queen Range
Again these are just what affects the Openers Terran has access to. I don't even want to get into the discussion of late game and how the other units have been nerfed.
Not to mention the maps have gotten bigger nowadays as well. It's made it much more difficult to pressure Zerg.
I find it really odd that there's this mentality here that Zerg just happened to get better, to develop a better game sense and learn how to deal with early-pressure. But they forget all the buffs they received, and the nerfs to Terran that made their game that much more easier.
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On June 21 2012 05:21 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 05:17 s3rp wrote:On June 21 2012 05:13 Catatonic wrote:On June 21 2012 03:54 kyriores wrote:
Yeah, tvz is painful right now. I don't know if there are detailed stats available somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that in master-grandmaster league games, most tvz's that go past the 15 minute mark are won by zerg. The only thing a terran could do to beat an equally skilled zerg is try to get ahead early by following some gimmicky strategy that may or may not pay off. The ghost nerf was the prime factor that lead to this situation but the queen buff is just the nail in the coffin (as it's even harder for T to get that early advantage).
Mech doesn't help very much either. Yes, the late-game army of Terran is stronger but u fall behind in economy tremendously, while the zerg controls pretty much all the map. Unless the zerg screws up really bad and trades his whole army for nothing, the 2nd army (all the banked larva) will surely clean up what's left. Even if THAT doesn't work out, the zerg can still afford to lose 1 expansion or 2 as it is certain that the T will be at least 2-3 bases behind. I agree that mech might stand better chances against late-game zerg, but it's also much much harder to master (1 small positioning mistake at any point will cost you the game, and mech games clearly aint 10-minute games). Oh Terran's could do what Protoss and Zerg before them had to do. Innovate, find strategies that can get the to win and break this early game no aggression time frame. Most of last year Terrans won everything they just flat out decimated the other two races until they figured out strategies that countered Terran aggression like they have now. Terran's aren't the only one's who ever get nerfed and the other races found ways around it just like Terran did per-say for the ghost EMP nerf. In the beginning it was "omg ghosts so useless we autolose" but then Terran's figured a way around that just like they will the queen range. It's new you need to give it time for the other races to figure out how to counter it rather then complain for a month straight about it. Innovate into what exactly ? Aggreesion builds are alot worse with the new Queen range and Terran lategame is still very bad considering how hard it is to transition into and how expensive it is. SkyTerran, MKP style. TvZ looks imbalanced right now. If SkyTerran doesn't work, I think Blizzard should revert the patch, but until then there is still wiggle-room.
Sky Terran is pretty bad against Zerg.
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On June 21 2012 05:21 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 05:17 s3rp wrote:On June 21 2012 05:13 Catatonic wrote:On June 21 2012 03:54 kyriores wrote:
Yeah, tvz is painful right now. I don't know if there are detailed stats available somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that in master-grandmaster league games, most tvz's that go past the 15 minute mark are won by zerg. The only thing a terran could do to beat an equally skilled zerg is try to get ahead early by following some gimmicky strategy that may or may not pay off. The ghost nerf was the prime factor that lead to this situation but the queen buff is just the nail in the coffin (as it's even harder for T to get that early advantage).
Mech doesn't help very much either. Yes, the late-game army of Terran is stronger but u fall behind in economy tremendously, while the zerg controls pretty much all the map. Unless the zerg screws up really bad and trades his whole army for nothing, the 2nd army (all the banked larva) will surely clean up what's left. Even if THAT doesn't work out, the zerg can still afford to lose 1 expansion or 2 as it is certain that the T will be at least 2-3 bases behind. I agree that mech might stand better chances against late-game zerg, but it's also much much harder to master (1 small positioning mistake at any point will cost you the game, and mech games clearly aint 10-minute games). Oh Terran's could do what Protoss and Zerg before them had to do. Innovate, find strategies that can get the to win and break this early game no aggression time frame. Most of last year Terrans won everything they just flat out decimated the other two races until they figured out strategies that countered Terran aggression like they have now. Terran's aren't the only one's who ever get nerfed and the other races found ways around it just like Terran did per-say for the ghost EMP nerf. In the beginning it was "omg ghosts so useless we autolose" but then Terran's figured a way around that just like they will the queen range. It's new you need to give it time for the other races to figure out how to counter it rather then complain for a month straight about it. Innovate into what exactly ? Aggreesion builds are alot worse with the new Queen range and Terran lategame is still very bad considering how hard it is to transition into and how expensive it is. SkyTerran, MKP style. TvZ looks imbalanced right now. If SkyTerran doesn't work, I think Blizzard should revert the patch, but until then there is still wiggle-room.
Skyterran should not work against well used Infestors combined with Corruptors. If Infesters would be weaker against Air yeah i'd agree.
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Don't forget the Ultra's build time was decreased from 70 to 55 in 1.4.0
Thor's build time is 60 and battlecruiser is 90.
Corruptor is 40 while Viking is 42.
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what bothers me too is that terrans tier 3 units mostly suck in large numbers, and this is why terrans have so much trouble in late game. bc are completely useless and thors are usefull against mutas and thats it
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On June 21 2012 05:35 larse wrote:
Don't forget the Ultra's build time was decreased from 70 to 55 in 1.4.0
Thor's build time is 60 and battlecruiser is 90.
Corruptor is 40 while Viking is 42.
I never quite understood changes like that. Considering Zerg's Macro/Production abilities and how Hatcheries can bank and hold 19 Larva, did they actually need a build time decrease? All the races have the benefit of a Macro ability that can decrease production time in a way.
Zerg Hatcheries - Spawn Larva, Explained already.
Protoss Warpgate/Chronoboost - Warpgate mechanics allow 5sec warp-in anywhere, and allows the unit to come out at the beginning of the production cycle. Meaning they technically get 2 production cycles while the other (Terran) races gets 1. They can also chronoboost the cooldown.
Terrans..well they have Reactors - Marines/Hellions/Vikings/Medivacs
Slow to build, limited use Reactors. Not to mention to get to the other units, you need a Techlab on the production buildings.
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On June 21 2012 02:01 Tryagain4free wrote:
Hi again avc!
I realy like your passion, and in some earlier comments, I really liked your moderate interpretation of the current state of the game. In your latest post you talk about "the greater good" and overall "fairness". While I personally agree on your opinion about balance beeing a "greater puzzle", I would like to ask you, if such a (surprising) patch like the queen buff did really make the MU "better" in terms of quality, dynamic, variability, back an forth action and even balance?
To me, it seems a bit much to ask others (in this case terrans), to suffer the impact of a quite significant change in the game, that seems to confuse all sorts of openings, timings and unit compositions, for the "greater good" (of zerg).
And on the topic of terrans beeing unimpressed by the analysis of Idra, Incontrol an Artosis, I am not sure how "convincing" you would find an analysis about PvZ lategame by Painuser, Select and Polt.
On the patch itself I would say there would have been much better ways to do it. For example buffing overlord speed alone. Give it some time. Or buff queen range to 4. Give it some time. What do you think?
What brings up these strong reactions among the terran community is just based on their experience that they had to face some really heavy an debatable nerfs (i.e.Snipe, Thor), which severly limited terran gameplay. Terran community is simply under the impression, that the balancing has reached a point, where it's just too much to overcome. And for the first time, there are non-terrans who have a similar impression. There is quite a number of zerg and protoss players in this thread, who are finding terran arguemts on this matter quite comprehensible.
I am not a terran player, but my impression is; this patch is not "solid and subtile", as you described it in your post. It skips a MU out of balance, which was, troughout the whole community, considered the best in terms of gameplay and balance.
It's a bit hard to understand, why ZvT had to be "balanced". What I like are your ideas about this patch beeing some kind of (pre)condition to (re)buff some terran stuff in mid-lategame. Personally, I think this is the way to go.
Maybe you find the time to further explain your point of supporting the patch in the current form?
I believe it is part of making the match up better, it certainly improved aspects of the early game, the trouble is it's hard for most people to understand this without rallying behind their own race and being biased.
It's more for the greater good of the game, especially when you take into consideration some of Blizzard's plans for Terran in HOTS. It is very much just a piece of the puzzle though, in a way it's necessary to do things this way so they can push things back the other way after seeing how the game been affected.
Subtle changes are absolutely the name of the game and I think most game developers go too far too quickly and they do that too often (hello Riot Games!). They probably could have given a prospective Queen change more time to be played with in testing while rolling out the Overlord speed change immediately.
There's no doubt that Terran players have suffered some annoying nerfs, but it's always good to have a sense of perspective. Most nerfs don't come along in games without reason and the Terran race has been the most versatile, most popular, strongest and most successful race in the short history of SC2 for a longer period than any other race. This doesn't mean I think everyone should have a turn at being OP, I don't think any race should be OP. This thread is largely populated with silly short sighted knee jerk opinions and heavily biased opinions, these people form the "your race was strong for a year so mine deserves to be strong now" argument army.
The patch itself was not necessarily too drastic, it was more that the patch coincided with some dramatic shifts in Zerg playing styles against Terran and it's shaken things up dramatically as a result. It would be very wrong and short sighted to blame only the patch for how the match up is played right now, but it's certainly a contributing factor.
It's a habit of gamers to write off units/skills/abilities/features/items when they get nerfed, regardless of the reasons for the nerf or the severity of it. To keep it brief I'll just say that the Hellion, Ghost and Reaper are good examples of this, as well as Neural Parasite to give an example from another race. With time they usually learn to reassess things and try to use them again, but that can often take some time. We're only just seeing NP start to receive more attention and usage from certain players.
Ultimately I just think the patch is one step in solving the puzzle and improving the match up. It's likely that this change has had the desired effect on the early game which should pave the way for some tweaks on some of the lesser used late game Terran units, which is something I'd like to see. No one should forget the important effect the patch has appeared to have on ZvZ either, it's fast becoming the most exciting and enjoyable mirror match.
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On June 21 2012 05:35 larse wrote:
Don't forget the Ultra's build time was decreased from 70 to 55 in 1.4.0
Thor's build time is 60 and battlecruiser is 90.
Corruptor is 40 while Viking is 42.
I don't understand why blizzard buffed zerg late game when it's already so good.
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On June 20 2012 14:38 benthekid wrote:
Maybe they can revert the blueflame nerf since the Queendralisk pwns them currently.
Blizzard has 5 options in my opinion.
Buff Terran early game (As if this is blizzard we are talking about) likeliness 0/10
Nerf Zerg early game (revert queen change or maybe change creep somehow) likeliness 2/10
Buff Terran late game (Raven HS cast range to something a little more that 6 which is the range of a marine while fungal has range 9 with radius 2 T.T ) likeliness 5/10
Nerf Zerg late game (Fungal radius to 1.5 from 2 to match EMP and Storm) likeliness 3/10
Continuing on will buisness as using aka making Terran a hell of a lot harder that it's counterparts because of the stigma of Terran op that permeates the community because of the beta and the dominance of Korean terrans in tournaments who actually just figured the game and race out pretty well
"Queendralisk"... nice. Thank you for the term, except that Queens are significantly better than Hydras. And cheaper. And have greater utility.
On a more serious note, Blizzard discovered with WoW that 'tis better to buff than to nerf, so I'd expect either Terran production lategame buff or a reversion of the EMP nerf.
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dont know if it was posted yet but just saw this on Goodys facebook
red=zerg green=toss blue=terran
![[image loading]](http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg)
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Too early really to determine if it was a good change.. I do know one thing though.. 75% - 80% of the terrans I beat on ladder qq about balance now.. raging in general has gone up..
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On June 21 2012 05:13 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:54 kyriores wrote:
Yeah, tvz is painful right now. I don't know if there are detailed stats available somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that in master-grandmaster league games, most tvz's that go past the 15 minute mark are won by zerg. The only thing a terran could do to beat an equally skilled zerg is try to get ahead early by following some gimmicky strategy that may or may not pay off. The ghost nerf was the prime factor that lead to this situation but the queen buff is just the nail in the coffin (as it's even harder for T to get that early advantage).
Mech doesn't help very much either. Yes, the late-game army of Terran is stronger but u fall behind in economy tremendously, while the zerg controls pretty much all the map. Unless the zerg screws up really bad and trades his whole army for nothing, the 2nd army (all the banked larva) will surely clean up what's left. Even if THAT doesn't work out, the zerg can still afford to lose 1 expansion or 2 as it is certain that the T will be at least 2-3 bases behind. I agree that mech might stand better chances against late-game zerg, but it's also much much harder to master (1 small positioning mistake at any point will cost you the game, and mech games clearly aint 10-minute games). Oh Terran's could do what Protoss and Zerg before them had to do. Innovate, find strategies that can get the to win and break this early game no aggression time frame. Most of last year Terrans won everything they just flat out decimated the other two races until they figured out strategies that countered Terran aggression like they have now. Terran's aren't the only one's who ever get nerfed and the other races found ways around it just like Terran did per-say for the ghost EMP nerf. In the beginning it was "omg ghosts so useless we autolose" but then Terran's figured a way around that just like they will the queen range. It's new you need to give it time for the other races to figure out how to counter it rather then complain for a month straight about it.
You mean balance whine and get rewarded with buffs/nerfs to T, right?
Btw, ur example is terrible. Ghost are not worth getting in TvZ anymore, and TvZ late game has been extremely hard for terran ever since.
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maybe they can revert some other terran nerfs if terran cant find new strats? I personally feel that these zerg buffs makes playing zerg more fun since you can play the game less blindly, and have better survivability.
I`d rather have terran be buffed a bit in the late game than revert the changes.
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On June 21 2012 05:59 stk01001 wrote:
Too early really to determine if it was a good change.. I do know one thing though.. 75% - 80% of the terrans I beat on ladder qq about balance now.. raging in general has gone up..
If you feel helpless thats what happens. At times ( map depended ) i insta leave right now or let my SCV's attack my CC while i either switch to desktop and do something else or just plain go afk.
I don't really like TvP but right now i'm sure as hell alot happier playing a Toss than a Zerg. At least have some openings there.
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I'm really sick of Blizzard basing balance off of a few tournament matches. It seems to me they did the same thing with the ghost the nerf as well.
I personally think that the Queen buff could be left as it is, but I do feel like Terran need a late game unit that can handle zergs forces, because as it currently stands.... 200/200 zerg armys are decimating 200/200 terran armies. If the ghost nerf didn't happen, I believe that this wouldn't be such an issue.
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Right now, Terran is all about the early to mid game. Win by proxies and pure aggression. Once you hit the late game, just GG out without even attempting to fight.
And in another thread....
On June 21 2012 05:23 geokilla wrote:
Wow... I make this thread months ago and it got locked because it was deemed "useless" or something. Same thread exists and now it's left open....
Anyways I've been macroing hard in all my games lately and I'm losing all of my games against Toss. All they gotta do is macro just as hard and then storm their way through to a win, along with having 3 Colossi in their army.
As for my games against Zerg, I gave up using Hellions today and going for 2 Rax expand like the good ol days. It actually works fairly well in the early game to mid game, as I get much more marines earlier, making it possible to pressure them into making zerglings instead drones and relying on just having 4 queens for defence.
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I honestly think the biggest issue that comes out of the queen buff is the creep spread, and what the ramifications of mass creep are. It's just a chain reaction that compounds on itself and the final result is an overbuff to creep.
Buffing the Queen's combat ability (read: deflecting hellions) allows for two things
1) Creep tumors are more easily defended
2) Getting additional Queens for defense (instead of using larva)
--> This leads to MORE Queens spreading MORE creep EASIER.
What does this mean? Creep allows for better scouting, better engagements, more preparation time (terran has to take the time to clear up the creep)... meaning a fully informed and safe zerg can drone to his delight, until either he reaches optimal saturation or he scouts something to trigger an alternative response.
How to fix the meta: Two real options that I see
1) Nerf creep in some way (lower tumor HP so they die to splash easier, decrease the radius at which a tumor will spread creep, make creep spread slower, make creep recede faster, make additional tumors not spread creep faster... idk, obviously only 1 or 2 of these suggestions, or something I can't think of).
2) Buff Terran's ability to deny/clear/fight on creep.
I'm leaning more towards buffing Terran's ability to deal with creep (rather than nerfing zerg, as it may hurt ZvP).
The one thing I think that would help this is buffing the Raven. The Raven buff doesn't have to be a direct buff necessarily, just something that allows the Terran player to logically create a Raven early on and use it to move around clearing up creep (by itself with turrets or in conjunction with other units). Something I think would be interesting would be to decrease the cost or time of building armor upgrade, or just default give the turrets an additional armor... This would allow ravens to use turrets to deny/clear creep without being killed instantly by zergings/queens (low damage fast attacks do poorly versus armor).
Or... instead of going the turret route, make seeker missile a more useful spell in some manner (lower energy cost, higher range, lower research cost, idk). Something that makes getting ravens early to clear up creep ALSO useful later in a standard engagements.
Just my addition to the discussion.
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On June 21 2012 03:12 Gardel wrote:
Everyone will one day understand the power of marauders. Even though they are being used, I still believe they should be used much more. Mark my words.
Ya know, I said this in the other thread. I haven't experimented with a build, and it might be gas-heavy and vulnerable to mutas, but I wonder what a two base 4techlab Stim Marauder Medivac push would look like. You could throw in a FEW Marines to deal with lings, but make it marauder-heavy. Early Marauder pressure might work, but how many Marauders does it take to kill 6 Queens? Probably a fuckton, with all those transfuses.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 21 2012 06:07 spbelky wrote:
I honestly think the biggest issue that comes out of the queen buff is the creep spread, and what the ramifications of mass creep are. It's just a chain reaction that compounds on itself and the final result is an overbuff to creep.
Buffing the Queen's combat ability (read: deflecting hellions) allows for two things
1) Creep tumors are more easily defended
2) Getting additional Queens for defense (instead of using larva)
--> This leads to MORE Queens spreading MORE creep EASIER.
What does this mean? Creep allows for better scouting, better engagements, more preparation time (terran has to take the time to clear up the creep)... meaning a fully informed and safe zerg can drone to his delight, until either he reaches optimal saturation or he scouts something to trigger an alternative response.
How to fix the meta: Two real options that I see
1) Nerf creep in some way (lower tumor HP so they die to splash easier, decrease the radius at which a tumor will spread creep, make creep spread slower, make creep recede faster, make additional tumors not spread creep faster... idk, obviously only 1 or 2 of these suggestions, or something I can't think of).
2) Buff Terran's ability to deny/clear/fight on creep.
I'm leaning more towards buffing Terran's ability to deal with creep (rather than nerfing zerg, as it may hurt ZvP).
The one thing I think that would help this is buffing the Raven. The Raven buff doesn't have to be a direct buff necessarily, just something that allows the Terran player to logically create a Raven early on and use it to move around clearing up creep (by itself with turrets or in conjunction with other units). Something I think would be interesting would be to decrease the cost or time of building armor upgrade, or just default give the turrets an additional armor... This would allow ravens to use turrets to deny/clear creep without being killed instantly by zergings/queens (low damage fast attacks do poorly versus armor).
Or... instead of going the turret route, make seeker missile a more useful spell in some manner (lower energy cost, higher range, lower research cost, idk). Something that makes getting ravens early to clear up creep ALSO useful later in a standard engagements.
Just my addition to the discussion.
Just speed buff on raven so that it can run away from infestors on creep is enough to me.
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EPT
