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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 21 2012 06:24 Apolo wrote:
Exactly. Terrans are used to put pressure and control the game early on. I wonder what it would be like, if the roles got reversed and Terran had to be the one to defend all the early game. I wonder if they would call that just pressure or imbalance. What this discussion feels now, and it might be a wrong feeling, is that terrans are feeling unscousicously "oh they can deal with our early game (albeit small) imbalance now, that feels wrong." and rationalizing it as being UP. Not having consistently above 50% winrate for the first time since SC2 came out must hurt and make it think things are imbalanced when in fact, at least according to Blizzards last comments, they're as close to 50% as they ever were.
You realize Blizzard came out and said balance was near 50/50 before they initiated the queen buff? You realize since then that balance has clearly not been 50/50? Look at the May winrates, TvZ after the patch in KR is noticeably weaker. You realize Blizzard said that Terran needs to do damage and pressure Zergs in the early/mid game in order to be on even footing going into the lategame? You realize that the queen buff directly affects this time period of the game in a significant way? Do you realize that Terran can't just sit and defend till lategame the same way as Zerg and Protoss? Do you realize how wrong you are by saying that balance should be dictated by past imbalance?
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On June 21 2012 06:53 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 06:24 Apolo wrote:
Exactly. Terrans are used to put pressure and control the game early on. I wonder what it would be like, if the roles got reversed and Terran had to be the one to defend all the early game. I wonder if they would call that just pressure or imbalance. What this discussion feels now, and it might be a wrong feeling, is that terrans are feeling unscousicously "oh they can deal with our early game (albeit small) imbalance now, that feels wrong." and rationalizing it as being UP. Not having consistently above 50% winrate for the first time since SC2 came out must hurt and make it think things are imbalanced when in fact, at least according to Blizzards last comments, they're as close to 50% as they ever were. You realize Blizzard came out and said balance was near 50/50 before they initiated the queen buff? You realize since then that balance has clearly not been 50/50? Look at the May winrates, TvZ after the patch in KR is noticeably weaker. You realize Blizzard said that Terran needs to do damage and pressure Zergs in the early/mid game in order to be on even footing going into the lategame? You realize that the queen buff directly affects this time period of the game in a significant way? Do you realize that Terran can't just sit and defend till lategame the same way as Zerg and Protoss? Do you realize how wrong you are by saying that balance should be dictated by past imbalance?
Zerg must always be forced to make a lot of units at latest by 10:00 by both Terran and Protoss. Every game where this hasn't happened, the Terran/Protoss died, unless the Zerg had a major screw up.
Now see what builds Terran have been going for.
*Note that this is just my observations
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Reverting range to 4 will make nothing, because your hellions WILL take hits from the queens as they are very fast at creep and hellions have long attack delay. At least that delay is enough to take hits from 4 queens.
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On June 21 2012 06:37 cosmo.6792 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 05:53 CarlosOmse wrote:dont know if it was posted yet but just saw this on Goodys facebook red=zerg green=toss blue=terran ![[image loading]](http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg) Poor sampling can lead to misleading conclusions. Those are mostly foreign tournaments up there. As most people are already aware, foreigners are notoriously mediocre with Terran. The best American and European pros are mostly Zerg and Protoss. If you look at win statistics before and after the patch, you'll notice that foreign terrans lag behind foreign zergs and toss. For a proper assessment of Terran play, you'd have to look at korean tournaments. That's where the best Terrans play.
I'm assuming you don't watch GSL or GSTL. I don't want to spoil, but Terran is getting pretty manhandled in TvZ this season.
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On June 21 2012 06:24 Apolo wrote:
Exactly. Terrans are used to put pressure and control the game early on. I wonder what it would be like, if the roles got reversed and Terran had to be the one to defend all the early game. I wonder if they would call that just pressure or imbalance. What this discussion feels now, and it might be a wrong feeling, is that terrans are feeling unscousicously "oh they can deal with our early game (albeit small) imbalance now, that feels wrong." and rationalizing it as being UP. Not having consistently above 50% winrate for the first time since SC2 came out must hurt and make it think things are imbalanced when in fact, at least according to Blizzards last comments, they're as close to 50% as they ever were.
Main issue with the first line of thinking is that Zerg can go full macro mode and spit out 12 drones at a time, having an optimum economy with 70-80 drones when untouched well under 8 min. Terran cannot. Zerg does have a window between injects and larva usage where they are incredibly vulnerable, but queen range (4-6) rapes any noncommittal pressure from Terran easy, while still maintaining optimal worker count.
So what do you see? More Terran allins, or Terran just getting outpaced in the midgame because they can't pressure.
The buff was a completely unnecessary piggyback on the overlord speed, IMHO, and I think the winrate will maintain a very tilted manner unless some Boxer-esque innovation/revolutionizing takes place.
And it won't happen. IMO of course.
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On June 21 2012 06:58 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 06:53 SupLilSon wrote:On June 21 2012 06:24 Apolo wrote:
Exactly. Terrans are used to put pressure and control the game early on. I wonder what it would be like, if the roles got reversed and Terran had to be the one to defend all the early game. I wonder if they would call that just pressure or imbalance. What this discussion feels now, and it might be a wrong feeling, is that terrans are feeling unscousicously "oh they can deal with our early game (albeit small) imbalance now, that feels wrong." and rationalizing it as being UP. Not having consistently above 50% winrate for the first time since SC2 came out must hurt and make it think things are imbalanced when in fact, at least according to Blizzards last comments, they're as close to 50% as they ever were. You realize Blizzard came out and said balance was near 50/50 before they initiated the queen buff? You realize since then that balance has clearly not been 50/50? Look at the May winrates, TvZ after the patch in KR is noticeably weaker. You realize Blizzard said that Terran needs to do damage and pressure Zergs in the early/mid game in order to be on even footing going into the lategame? You realize that the queen buff directly affects this time period of the game in a significant way? Do you realize that Terran can't just sit and defend till lategame the same way as Zerg and Protoss? Do you realize how wrong you are by saying that balance should be dictated by past imbalance? Zerg must always be forced to make a lot of units at latest by 10:00 by both Terran and Protoss. Every game where this hasn't happened, the Terran/Protoss died, unless the Zerg had a major screw up. Now see what builds Terran have been going for. *Note that this is just my observations
What about games where this has happened? Your "statistic" is pretty lacking and lends itself to huge bias.
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On June 21 2012 06:24 Apolo wrote:
Exactly. Terrans are used to put pressure and control the game early on. I wonder what it would be like, if the roles got reversed and Terran had to be the one to defend all the early game. I wonder if they would call that just pressure or imbalance. What this discussion feels now, and it might be a wrong feeling, is that terrans are feeling unscousicously "oh they can deal with our early game (albeit small) imbalance now, that feels wrong." and rationalizing it as being UP. Not having consistently above 50% winrate for the first time since SC2 came out must hurt and make it think things are imbalanced when in fact, at least according to Blizzards last comments, they're as close to 50% as they ever were.
Well yes Terrans usually control the game early because they don't have much of a late game, Terran is designed to take an advantage in the mid game and carry that advantage through the end. (Suggested by Blizzard)
If Terrans don't get the advantage early they're not left with many options, unlike Zerg and Protoss who have multiple late game options.
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On June 21 2012 06:37 cosmo.6792 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 05:53 CarlosOmse wrote:dont know if it was posted yet but just saw this on Goodys facebook red=zerg green=toss blue=terran Poor sampling can lead to misleading conclusions. Those are mostly foreign tournaments up there. As most people are already aware, foreigners are notoriously mediocre with Terran. The best American and European pros are mostly Zerg and Protoss. If you look at win statistics before and after the patch, you'll notice that foreign terrans lag behind foreign zergs and toss. For a proper assessment of Terran play, you'd have to look at korean tournaments. That's where the best Terrans play.
GSTL Season 2
Terran win: 3
Zerg win: 14
Win rate: 17.6%
GSL Season 3
Terran win: 13
Zerg win: 22
Win rate: 37.1%
In sum
Total played: 52
Terran win: 16
Zerg win: 36
Win rate: 30.7%
OK. Someone may argue that there are better Zerg players in GSL and GSTL like DRG, Nestea, and Symbol in this season. So let's see what does the win rate look like if we remove all their games from calculation.
There are 6 Symbol games, and 6 wins for him in both GSL and GSTL.
There are 2 DRG games, and 2 wins for him in both GSL and GSTL.
There are 2 Nestea games, and 2 wins for him in both GSL and GSTL.
In other words, these three Zerg players have 100% win rate in ZvT. But It's ok because they are the best in their skills. So maybe that's why Zerg won so much because these strong Zerg players outclass other players. So let's see if we remove their games from the calculation, what does the win rate look like.
If you remove all the DRG, Nestea, and Symbol games from the calculation, TvZ win rate is 38.1% [16 / (52-10) = 38.1%]
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Source:
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=Z&season=0&leaguetype=50&leagueid=27063&gamever=0&mapid=0
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=Z&season=0&leaguetype=20&leagueid=27064&gamever=0&mapid=0
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On June 21 2012 06:37 cosmo.6792 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 05:53 CarlosOmse wrote:dont know if it was posted yet but just saw this on Goodys facebook red=zerg green=toss blue=terran Poor sampling can lead to misleading conclusions. Those are mostly foreign tournaments up there. As most people are already aware, foreigners are notoriously mediocre with Terran. The best American and European pros are mostly Zerg and Protoss. If you look at win statistics before and after the patch, you'll notice that foreign terrans lag behind foreign zergs and toss. For a proper assessment of Terran play, you'd have to look at korean tournaments. That's where the best Terrans play.
By saying that foreign terrans are worse players that Zs and Ps, u could also say that korean Ts are simply better players than Zs and Ps, and that being the reason to why terran has had so much success.
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+ Show Spoiler [TSL4 Qualifier Spoiler] +Select just resorted to two bunker rushes in a row to get past Ret in the TSL4 qualifiers...
He lost the first game when he didn't bunker rush, then won the next two.
If this doesn't say that something's up, I don't know what does.
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On June 21 2012 07:30 Antylamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler [TSL4 Qualifier Spoiler] +Select just resorted to two bunker rushes in a row to get past Ret in the TSL4 qualifiers...
He lost the first game when he didn't bunker rush, then won the next two.
If this doesn't say that something's up, I don't know what does.
he "resorted" to that? and it won him the games? clearly terran needs to be buffed so they still have that option, but are fine to play other ways.
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On June 21 2012 07:27 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 06:37 cosmo.6792 wrote:On June 21 2012 05:53 CarlosOmse wrote:dont know if it was posted yet but just saw this on Goodys facebook red=zerg green=toss blue=terran Poor sampling can lead to misleading conclusions. Those are mostly foreign tournaments up there. As most people are already aware, foreigners are notoriously mediocre with Terran. The best American and European pros are mostly Zerg and Protoss. If you look at win statistics before and after the patch, you'll notice that foreign terrans lag behind foreign zergs and toss. For a proper assessment of Terran play, you'd have to look at korean tournaments. That's where the best Terrans play. By saying that foreign terrans are worse players that Zs and Ps, u could also say that korean Ts are simply better players than Zs and Ps, and that being the reason to why terran has had so much success.
i find this to be true, it is laughable how fast terrans evolved their play compared to the other races, mainly because MVP, MKP and the whole slayershouse among other great players really researched their own race diligently and copied from each other the effective strategies... and that was when zerg had nestea and protoss had mc. period.
anyone waiting for magic metagameshifts will wait long, the raven is a costly unit that has no place in early to midgame, and almost all currently unused units were nerfed or specific counters to begin with that do not help at anything else really...
what you will see the GSL terrans do, and what we already see, are proxyrax, cc first, hidden allins, or a harrassbattle with hellions, banshees and drops combined to stretch the enemies multitasking. everything risky, everything highly skillreliant, no straight up plays, terran reverts back cheese hard and mindfuck as good as they can, where is bitbybit when we need him?
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On June 21 2012 07:30 Antylamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler [TSL4 Qualifier Spoiler] +Select just resorted to two bunker rushes in a row to get past Ret in the TSL4 qualifiers...
He lost the first game when he didn't bunker rush, then won the next two.
If this doesn't say that something's up, I don't know what does.
Not be surprised by nerfing bunker 
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On June 21 2012 07:39 JEcho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 07:30 Antylamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler [TSL4 Qualifier Spoiler] +Select just resorted to two bunker rushes in a row to get past Ret in the TSL4 qualifiers...
He lost the first game when he didn't bunker rush, then won the next two.
If this doesn't say that something's up, I don't know what does. he "resorted" to that? and it won him the games? clearly terran needs to be buffed so they still have that option, but are fine to play other ways.
You could ignore the anecdotal evidence and look at the recent statistics...
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When is started with sc2 i never thought that balance talks are so common in rts games, i thought instead of crying most people would just accept the game, wait for a buff maybe and trying to get better :D
Just saying
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On June 21 2012 07:57 CaF-Lunar wrote:
When is started with sc2 i never thought that balance talks are so common in rts games, i thought instead of crying most people would just accept the game, wait for a buff maybe and trying to get better :D
man i was wrong.
Balance talk have been always a part of every competive game, I think
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lol if you don't talk about balance how will blizzard know what to buff?
there's constructive balance talk, then the QQ balance talk.
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On June 21 2012 08:01 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 07:57 CaF-Lunar wrote:
When is started with sc2 i never thought that balance talks are so common in rts games, i thought instead of crying most people would just accept the game, wait for a buff maybe and trying to get better :D
man i was wrong.
Balance talk have been always a part of every competive game, I think
:D i wonder if chess players or even poker players talk sometimes about sth. like balance, but i doubt that.
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Creating this thread is fucking stupid. The TL;DR of this thread is "Ok we are a month past the queen buff and our strats that worked before the buff, STILL are not working. Is the queen OP because we can't use the old strat with the new buff?" Buffs and changes to the game are so the game itself will change, and be better. Yes you can't control the entire map up till the 10 min mark or so now with just hellions. Maybe get a fast banshee or get a raven to clear up tumors, do something else. Adapt to the game.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
