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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Lokishadow
United States71 Posts
I ask this because if no one did, then the range buff may have only encouraged zergs to explore something that had not been previously explored. The 6-8 queen build might very well have been viable prior to the patch (assuming no one experimented with it). Does anyone know of an instance of this? | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
On June 21 2012 08:04 Lokishadow wrote: Read the OP and the first page of comments. The rest? TL;DR. I want to raise a question: did anyone (other than Destiny and Funday Mondays) experiment with 6-8 queens before the patch? I ask this because if no one did, then the range buff may have only encouraged zergs to explore something that had not been previously explored. The 6-8 queen build might very well have been viable prior to the patch (assuming no one experimented with it). Does anyone know of an instance of this? Didn't Spanishiwa do that a lot? | ||
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andropopp
United States88 Posts
maybe have everyone start with 500points then it can go negative if they keep losing and players like MVP, MKP, and DRG would have tons of points by winning all the time and being the best then we could really have a good basis to start calculating REAL "winrates" because i dont believe blizzards ladder statistic winrates for a second when the system is designed to give almost everyone a 50% winrate and blizzard says they somehow incorporate "skill" into their calculations to create a "adjusted winrate" to find a real winrate for TvZ ... but im not buying it... i really dont believe their system works without them explaining it to us. it is probably a terrible system that the community could probably improve upon a ton | ||
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Antares_
Poland269 Posts
On June 21 2012 08:04 Lokishadow wrote: Read the OP and the first page of comments. The rest? TL;DR. I want to raise a question: did anyone (other than Destiny and Funday Mondays) experiment with 6-8 queens before the patch? I ask this because if no one did, then the range buff may have only encouraged zergs to explore something that had not been previously explored. The 6-8 queen build might very well have been viable prior to the patch (assuming no one experimented with it). Does anyone know of an instance of this? Yes, people did. Artosis was talking about it during Maru vs DRG on Metropolis yesterday. He said that people were trying to go 6 or more queens, but with 2 range advantage Terran could easily "hit&run" tumors. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On June 21 2012 08:04 Balgrog wrote: Creating this thread is fucking stupid. The TL;DR of this thread is "Ok we are a month past the queen buff and our strats that worked before the buff, STILL are not working. Is the queen OP because we can't use the old strat with the new buff?" Buffs and changes to the game are so the game itself will change, and be better. Yes you can't control the entire map up till the 10 min mark or so now with just hellions. Maybe get a fast banshee or get a raven to clear up tumors, do something else. Adapt to the game. Getting a fast Banshee and a Raven against an opening with Queens is as useful as opening Helions in regards to containing creep. There's absolutely nothing Terran has to deal with creepspread that isn't weak against Queens or comes way too late when creep is aldready advanced way too far. | ||
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SnowFox2ne1
United States52 Posts
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celeryman
United States54 Posts
On June 21 2012 08:03 CaF-Lunar wrote: :D i wonder if chess players or even poker players talk sometimes about sth. like balance, but i doubt that. Funny those are the examples you bring up. Both are symmetrical games, unlike starcraft, except for position. In poker being last position is a huge advantage. It's difficult to quantify, but visit a bunch of pensioners at a poker table and even they will tell you what under the gun means. In chess the effect is pronounced enough there's a wikipedia article about it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess). Interestingly, white's advantage historically is lower than the current ZvT imbalance. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 21 2012 07:30 Antylamon wrote: + Show Spoiler [TSL4 Qualifier Spoiler] + Select just resorted to two bunker rushes in a row to get past Ret in the TSL4 qualifiers... He lost the first game when he didn't bunker rush, then won the next two. If this doesn't say that something's up, I don't know what does. Select always plays like that. It is the foundation of his TvZ. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On June 21 2012 08:04 Balgrog wrote: Creating this thread is fucking stupid. The TL;DR of this thread is "Ok we are a month past the queen buff and our strats that worked before the buff, STILL are not working. Is the queen OP because we can't use the old strat with the new buff?" Buffs and changes to the game are so the game itself will change, and be better. Yes you can't control the entire map up till the 10 min mark or so now with just hellions. Maybe get a fast banshee or get a raven to clear up tumors, do something else. Adapt to the game. Because you think that it was intended that a simple queen buff, not even tested on test servers and implemented in less than a week, would completely eliminate all standards openings from terrans and make nearly 2 years of build evolution obsolete ? We had a good and balanced matchup, Blizzard decide to add more stability to zerg early game (which is ok), but instead of stability you have quasi invulnerability and a total reset for one side of an excellent and balanced matchup. This can't have been intended. The matchup is now horrible to watch and play, it's now like TvP were you already know who will win based on the 10 first minutes >< | ||
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Shewklad
Sweden482 Posts
On June 21 2012 09:47 6xFPCs wrote: Select always plays like that. It is the foundation of his TvZ. No he doesn't. He said on twitter he did what had to be done. | ||
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
On June 21 2012 10:10 MrCon wrote: Because you think that it was intended that a simple queen buff, not even tested on test servers and implemented in less than a week, would completely eliminate all standards openings from terrans and make nearly 2 years of build evolution obsolete ? We had a good and balanced matchup, Blizzard decide to add more stability to zerg early game (which is ok), but instead of stability you have quasi invulnerability and a total reset for one side of an excellent and balanced matchup. This can't have been intended. The matchup is now horrible to watch and play, it's now like TvP were you already know who will win based on the 10 first minutes >< Im sorry but am i the only one who thought reactor hellion opening which was used a good 90% of games, was stupidly boring to watch and often times just annoyed me with how many kills they got? I can't even remember how many games you'd see someone just straight out lose to a huge hellion push because the zerg couldn't scout effectively. Not saying that the buff is perfect, but how can you say that the now ineffective reactor hellion build made the match up, if anything super short games where the zerg just outright lost in the first 6 minutes because he didn't blindly go roach ruined the match up. | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On June 21 2012 08:22 SnowFox2ne1 wrote: With 6 or more queens, you can't kill creep, period. Even if you snipe it, you are trading hellion health or minerals for 6 queens energy; or the ability to press c and click when a tumor dies. There is no more pushing creep back or controlling it early, which was actually a really cool meta game before the patch. It gave terran early game map control and the ability to contain creep a little bit until units got out. Now a zerg doesn't need to use any larva on units, and gets to spread creep as much as he wants barring a very risky hellion run by or some other coin-flip play. Artosis and friends are hung up on the fact that because terran won in the past, it is their turn to lose a lot. This is blizzard balance and it is not good for the game in any way. It wasn't a really cool meta game before the patch it was "Fuck you, no spreading creep before the 10 minute mark." | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On June 21 2012 10:17 Ace.Xile wrote: Im sorry but am i the only one who thought reactor hellion opening which was used a good 90% of games, was stupidly boring to watch and often times just annoyed me with how many kills they got? I can't even remember how many games you'd see someone just straight out lose to a huge hellion push because the zerg couldn't scout effectively. Not saying that the buff is perfect, but how can you say that the now ineffective reactor hellion build made the match up, if anything super short games where the zerg just outright lost in the first 6 minutes because he didn't blindly go roach ruined the match up. I think you mix up the rare mass hellion allin with the standard hellion creep contain build. The standard for zerg was to make a roach warren, 0 to 3 roaches, then add roaches if it was an allin. I don't see how an allin used 5 times max in GSL ruined the matchup. Basically what you say is the equivalent of saying "The matchup is boring because zerg fast expo every game". It's standard because it's the best thing to do in most cases and because it allow both races to enter the mid game on equal terms. On June 21 2012 10:20 Ziggitz wrote: I shouldn't even respond to this. In fact I won't.It wasn't a really cool meta game before the patch it was "Fuck you, no spreading creep before the 10 minute mark." | ||
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
On June 21 2012 10:17 Ace.Xile wrote: Im sorry but am i the only one who thought reactor hellion opening which was used a good 90% of games, was stupidly boring to watch and often times just annoyed me with how many kills they got? I can't even remember how many games you'd see someone just straight out lose to a huge hellion push because the zerg couldn't scout effectively. Not saying that the buff is perfect, but how can you say that the now ineffective reactor hellion build made the match up, if anything super short games where the zerg just outright lost in the first 6 minutes because he didn't blindly go roach ruined the match up. The overlord speed was vs the scouting issues. The 5 queen range just made 6 queens counter to everything in early game. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On June 21 2012 10:20 Ziggitz wrote: It wasn't a really cool meta game before the patch it was "Fuck you, no spreading creep before the 10 minute mark." You could spend larvae and cash on Zerglings and or Roaches to deny the Hellions. It wasn't how you say it was. | ||
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cosmo.6792
161 Posts
Let queens retain their range upgrade. But nerf the creep growth bonus provided by multiple (redundant) tumors. That growth bonus shouldn't kick in until Lair tech. Right now, creep is just spreading out of control because there are sooooo many queens and soooo many tumors. I don't think Blizzard ever foresaw Zerg dropping that many tumors early in the game. Unmitigated creep spread is what allows Queens and slowlings to venture out to the middle of the map and NOT get punished. Those two units are simply terrible off creep; the less creep there are, the less effective those units become. Also, creep spread is what forces Terrans into attacking early. Terrans know --- if the creep spread is unchecked, it will reach the Zel'Naga towers before Zerg even starts researching lair tech. It's insane. Slowing down the creep spread will make a delayed bio aggression more viable. Marines won't have to trudge 10 miles deep into creep territory just to harass the Zerg 3rd base, for example. Terrans can even wait until combat shield and stim have been researched before pushing out, without worrying that creep has already covered 80% of the map. By nerfing the benefits of mass tumors at hatch-tech, the spread of creep will go back to the way it was in 2010 when creep spread was still "normal". It will be slower than it is now, obviously. But it's still faster than it was 6 months ago when zerg was being completely contained by mass hellions kiting queens and sniping tumors. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26044 Posts
For example, Protoss have to decide as to whether to build a ton of sentries early to be safer, but delaying tech by doing so. If Blizzard for example lowered the gas cost of sentry, this delicate balancing act no longer exists, there is less risk to teching up under a low sentry count. That's how I see the Queen change, hope it gets reverted. I also dislike that zealot/stalker pokes are now next to useless in PvZ, relatively minor but still takes away from the variety of strats that make this game great. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On June 21 2012 10:20 Ziggitz wrote: It wasn't a really cool meta game before the patch it was "Fuck you, no spreading creep before the 10 minute mark." Zerg had to invest something to be able to spread creep without being stopped. Before, you used to need roach or leapfrog a spine crawler to advance creep. ( or get twety ish lings and get the terran by surprise, which happend a lot ) I know it was probably frustrating in Zerg pov.. but there's a reason terran wanted to limit zerg from doing what they wanted at this point of the game.  | ||
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Doomblaze
United States1292 Posts
On June 21 2012 10:23 Fencer710 wrote: You could spend larvae and cash on Zerglings and or Roaches to deny the Hellions. It wasn't how you say it was. But making 3-4 roaches is way too much of an investment to allow you to safely take an expo and spread creep, at least thats what everyone tells me. Pre-patch, terrans contained the zerg on 2 base, denied creep, then tried to kill the 3rd to get an advantage. Post patch, terran can't contain the zerg. I saw a match on cloud kingdom at dreamhack where the zerg went hatch pool hatch, built lings at 9 mins after he had 70 drones, stopped the terrans bio push, then baneling busted him and killed him. I'm all for attempting to turtle it out to lategame, but terran is by nature at a huge disadvantage lategame, with no reliable counter to infestor broodlord and the worst reinforcing mechanic in the game. If we get it to the point where we can sacc SCVs we can go head to head with zerg, but by that time he can have maxed infestor BL ultra army. This is all assuming zerg doesnt baneling roach you in the first 10 mins. Terran will either figure it out or it will get patched. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
The problem is that lategame TvZ has always been imbalanced in favor of the Zerg. And that was okay, because we could always count on doing enough damage in the early game to make things more balanced in the lategame (just like in TvP). So now we have a situation where the matchup is balanced early game, balanced mid game, but imbalanced in favor of Zerg in the lategame. It's basically the same situation as TvP now. I think the best solution is to buff a Terran lategame unit. Thor, Raven, Battlecruiser, take your pick. There are so many different ways to go about it. Change the Thor's antiair attack from 4 weak attacks to 2 higher damage attacks and remove its energy bar. Add 2 range to Hunter Seeker Missile. Give Ravens Hunter Seeker Missile for free without research. Lower the energy cost of HSM/Yamato and add a cooldown instead. Improve Battlecruiser air attack damage to match its ground attack damage. Lower the build time of Thor/Raven/Battlecruiser by 5-10 seconds. Any of those fixes would help. And if Blizzard insists upon changing the Bunker to balance TvZ, then I would recommend making Neosteel Frame also add 2 armor to Bunkers (which would stack with Terran Building Armor). | ||
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