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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
i blame immvp for winning the GSL even during Terran's darkest days... Now we are no where near to be buffed and we might get more nerfs...
I just wanna say, Blizzard if you want more entertaining matches to be produced, OKAY you can keep the queen and overload buffs, we terrans will EAT THEM and DIGEST like nobody's business. BUT PLEASE, give us some buffs. even some minor ones, to our 3RD TIER UNITS. Give us at least one viable late game tech transitions, thor battle cruiser or raven or ghost, SO BE IT.
When Terran can transition to some stronger 3rd tier units vs Zerg transition to their ultra broodlord infestors, WON"T IT BE EPIC TO WATCH AND PLAY TVZ? We are not even asking for some major buffs to make our 3rd tier units to be as strong as ultras broodlords or collosus, just add some movement speed and some opportunities for Terrans to micro them out more effectively? Micro is in our terran blood anyway
Sorry for the bad English i usually speaks better but i am in a hopeless stressed and depressed mood after watching how DRG plays like the matchup is so impossible for terrans now
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You zergs are just too stupid
you guys think this is balanced and terran didnt figure stuff out
1st of all what unit can control creep early game?
marines? queens kill marines
marauders? terran rushing for marauders will die to lings
reapers? it can harass early game but can't control creep
ghosts? comes out too late
hellions? queens kill hellions
tanks? comes out too late
thors? comes out too late
banshee? queens kill banshees
seriously? i haven't seen a terran do anything but a hellion opening in forever at least now they fe, marines are awesome against queens in case you didn't know. why are you rushing marauders thats always a bad idea, reapers aren't a strong choice either but they can definitely deny creep. queens dont kill hellions lol 0/10 for the troll post i hope a mod bans you because zergs aren't stupid we've been through just as many patches and adapted. right now were adapting to protoss
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On June 21 2012 08:03 CaF-Lunar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:01 zezamer wrote:On June 21 2012 07:57 CaF-Lunar wrote:
When is started with sc2 i never thought that balance talks are so common in rts games, i thought instead of crying most people would just accept the game, wait for a buff maybe and trying to get better :D
man i was wrong.
Balance talk have been always a part of every competive game, I think Show nested quote +
:D i wonder if chess players or even poker players talk sometimes about sth. like balance, but i doubt that.
i dont think people complains about balance for TvT or mirror mu. in chess the pieces has the same function dude. idk much about poker but both player has equal chances of getting the cards they want. we are talking about 2 different races
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On June 21 2012 11:39 Vekalisk wrote:
Just like every other patch the race will find a way to deal with it. This happens every god damn patch.
Sometimes this is the case. A lot of times tho, it ends with Blizzard nerfing something. Zergs never really learnt to deal with bunker rush, hellions, ghosts. Blizzard just added barracks build time, nerfed blue flame, nerfed snipe.
The funny thing is, TvZ was in a pretty decent state with a slight T advantage since T had more options to pressure zerg and force mistakes. Although if the Zerg didn't make mistakes, they had a slight advantage in mid late game once they were on 3 base saturation. I think balance was already tilting towards the zerg since players were getting better at defending drops and better army control during engagements. But Blizzard decided that since no zerg in Ro8 GSL, they had to do something. I think maybe moving attack range to 4 and see what happens would have been better. But typical blizzard, they overdid it.
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On June 21 2012 12:22 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 11:39 Vekalisk wrote:
Just like every other patch the race will find a way to deal with it. This happens every god damn patch. Sometimes this is the case. A lot of times tho, it ends with Blizzard nerfing something. Zergs never really learnt to deal with bunker rush, hellions, ghosts. Blizzard just added barracks build time, nerfed blue flame, nerfed snipe. The funny thing is, TvZ was in a pretty decent state with a slight T advantage since T had more options to pressure zerg and force mistakes. Although if the Zerg didn't make mistakes, they had a slight advantage in mid late game once they were on 3 base saturation. I think balance was already tilting towards the zerg since players were getting better at defending drops and better army control during engagements. But Blizzard decided that since no zerg in Ro8 GSL, they had to do something. I think maybe moving attack range to 4 and see what happens would have been better. But typical blizzard, they overdid it.
The funny thing is everyone blames terran for being OP when there are no zergs in RO8 previous GSL. I thought there were about 5 tosses in RO8? Isnt it true that the tosses pawned more zergys on the way to RO8?
F. Thats all i wanna say
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I actually think Transfuse is the problem both early game and late game, it allows Zerg to defend almost any type of pressure and then buff ultras and broodlords to nearly unkillable status.
Something like "if you've been transfused in the last 30 seconds you can't receive another transfusion" could help things out.
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On June 21 2012 12:11 AceDSS wrote:Show nested quote +You zergs are just too stupid
you guys think this is balanced and terran didnt figure stuff out
1st of all what unit can control creep early game?
marines? queens kill marines
marauders? terran rushing for marauders will die to lings
reapers? it can harass early game but can't control creep
ghosts? comes out too late
hellions? queens kill hellions
tanks? comes out too late
thors? comes out too late
banshee? queens kill banshees seriously? i haven't seen a terran do anything but a hellion opening in forever at least now they fe, marines are awesome against queens in case you didn't know. why are you rushing marauders thats always a bad idea, reapers aren't a strong choice either but they can definitely deny creep. queens dont kill hellions lol 0/10 for the troll post i hope a mod bans you because zergs aren't stupid we've been through just as many patches and adapted. right now were adapting to protoss
His point is, besides hellions which are bloody fast and were extremely efficient controlling creep, there is nothing in the terran arsenal that can deny creep at a reasonable pace without loosing too many units. You're also literally proving his point where he says "you guys think this is balanced and terran didnt figure stuff out".
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I think it is still a bit too early to determine if the buff was too drastic. It is always better to let the pros innovate and change the metagame, than to let Blizzard intervene and patch, and so I hope that the pros will come up with new ways to play the MU.
That being said, I felt that Blizzard was too drastic and preemptive with this latest patch. The TvZ matchup was pretty entertaining and seemed pretty fine pre-patch, and I wonder why they felt the need to make such large changes. Sure, hellion openers were strong, and scouting was an issue at times, but to buff overlord speed, queen range, and queen starting energy all at once seemed a bit excessive to me.
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As a zerg i think the queen range is needed, because early game, vs terran, without this range it is extremely hard to hold off the simplist bunker rushes that terrans can do, even on long distance maps. The simple fact in TvZ prior to this a terran could pull 5-7 SCVs, and it would still not be an all-in. This remedies a huge problem in High Master / GM ZvT. And yes I am High Master.
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I remember when the initial test map came out it seemed way more players were complaining about the initial 25 energy on queens than the range change (see: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334423). I think what's interesting is, although the initial tumor is slower, you still end up with more creep by the mid game via the range change because of the sheer number of queens and the ability to poke back at the hellions and fight for creep tumor space. So effective in battle that you actually saw some decent battle queens in mkp v slayers yugioh code s,ro32, group F.
I'd like to see more tank timing pushes before lair tech kicks in (what the zerg is sacrificing by being so queen heavy, although you have to watch out for the faster ov scout) and ghost usage in general.
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On June 20 2012 14:30 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 14:24 johnnywup wrote:
still too early to tell imo, terrans need to learn different openers besides hellions which they haven't really yet The Terran race has used some of the most innovative and diverse strategies and openers. Reaper openers, nerfed. All sort of Marine-Aggro 2Rax builds, nerfed Rax Build time/Bunker Build Time/Stim Timing. Banshee openers -> Quicker Spore Root. Hellion BF Nerf. Now a Queen buff to deal with as well. And keep in mind, these are just the opening builds that were affected. This isn't even including the Siege Tank nerfs, Ghost nerf, Thor nerf. I have to say with all the "Let the metagame play out, they'll learn out to adapt". Terrans have adapted many times throughout most of the patches to changes (read: Nerfs). But once anything that is remotely even decent is found, it's nerfed into the ground.
Give this man a medal. Lmao, GMarshal loves banning me, so I decided to switch to zerg to see if my "Balance whining" was justified. (Doesn't matter too much, since i post once every 2 weeks). BAM, just went 13-4 against terran as zerg, and i don't even play zerg. Had a terran who gave me a free game as he had just gotten raped by BL/Infestor and decided he didn't give a fuck after my five queens raped his hellion opening.
Pity my ZvZ/ZvP is abysmal, or else I'd immediately switch to zerg. This man tells the heart of the problem with terrans. It's like every patch one of our units gets worse (statisically speaking, every unit (scv, marine, marauder, ghost, viking, medivac, ravens, BCs, hellions, tanks, thors) has been nerfed at least once. Terrans are told after every patch to go and "adapt" and we do, but at least me (and many of my friends) have long passed the end of our patience. We've practiced dozens of builds, and the fact is, anytime we get good at something (ie. i was particularly good with the 5rax reaper back in the day due to lots of vulture micro UMS), dustin balder nerf bats us in the face, and we have to start from kindergarden again.
GMarshal, I hope the above post isn't considered "balance whining", as whatever statements I make to the actual game are all hard facts, and am merely discussing my (and many of my friends') emotions to the game.
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On June 21 2012 12:48 Ethic wrote:
As a zerg i think the queen range is needed, because early game, vs terran, without this range it is extremely hard to hold off the simplist bunker rushes that terrans can do, even on long distance maps. The simple fact in TvZ prior to this a terran could pull 5-7 SCVs, and it would still not be an all-in. This remedies a huge problem in High Master / GM ZvT. And yes I am High Master.
Oh noes I hatch first every game without any thought or micro and I die to a straight up coin flip micro intensive build. Spoiled zergs...
Now we have this cool little situation where terrans can't allin a zerg, but zergs can still allin terrans. On top of that Zergs have always and continue to have a far easier late game due to units like broods and infestors.
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On June 21 2012 12:48 Ethic wrote:
As a zerg i think the queen range is needed, because early game, vs terran, without this range it is extremely hard to hold off the simplist bunker rushes that terrans can do, even on long distance maps. The simple fact in TvZ prior to this a terran could pull 5-7 SCVs, and it would still not be an all-in. This remedies a huge problem in High Master / GM ZvT. And yes I am High Master.
Its funny because on your quote it says diamond league. But w/e the bunker rush problem was addressed when the spine root time was reduced imo
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On June 21 2012 12:31 LanTAs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 12:11 AceDSS wrote:You zergs are just too stupid
you guys think this is balanced and terran didnt figure stuff out
1st of all what unit can control creep early game?
marines? queens kill marines
marauders? terran rushing for marauders will die to lings
reapers? it can harass early game but can't control creep
ghosts? comes out too late
hellions? queens kill hellions
tanks? comes out too late
thors? comes out too late
banshee? queens kill banshees seriously? i haven't seen a terran do anything but a hellion opening in forever at least now they fe, marines are awesome against queens in case you didn't know. why are you rushing marauders thats always a bad idea, reapers aren't a strong choice either but they can definitely deny creep. queens dont kill hellions lol 0/10 for the troll post i hope a mod bans you because zergs aren't stupid we've been through just as many patches and adapted. right now were adapting to protoss His point is, besides hellions which are bloody fast and were extremely efficient controlling creep, there is nothing in the terran arsenal that can deny creep at a reasonable pace without loosing too many units. You're also literally proving his point where he says "you guys think this is balanced and terran didnt figure stuff out".
The main problem with this, as sayle repeatedly notes, is that to kill creep, terran must scan, which kills their economy due to the need for mules to maintain economic parady with the zerg. A SPL game featured a zerg trolling the terran by randomly moving queens to the middle of the map and starting creep there; though the strategy "failed" the terran needed 3 scans to clean up the creep, which essentially crapped his economy into gg.
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On June 21 2012 12:48 Ethic wrote:
As a zerg i think the queen range is needed, because early game, vs terran, without this range it is extremely hard to hold off the simplist bunker rushes that terrans can do, even on long distance maps. The simple fact in TvZ prior to this a terran could pull 5-7 SCVs, and it would still not be an all-in. This remedies a huge problem in High Master / GM ZvT. And yes I am High Master.
You're diamond according to your quote, but that might just not have been updated for a while. Eitherway, your argument doesn't make much sense, people have been dealing well with 2 raxes for quite a while already, hence they where not popular before the queen patch but instead helions where.
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On June 21 2012 13:06 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 12:48 Ethic wrote:
As a zerg i think the queen range is needed, because early game, vs terran, without this range it is extremely hard to hold off the simplist bunker rushes that terrans can do, even on long distance maps. The simple fact in TvZ prior to this a terran could pull 5-7 SCVs, and it would still not be an all-in. This remedies a huge problem in High Master / GM ZvT. And yes I am High Master. You're diamond according to your quote, but that might just not have been updated for a while. Eitherway, your argument doesn't make much sense, people have been dealing well with 2 raxes for quite a while already, hence they where not popular before the queen patch but instead helions where.
Why are you saying what i already said. Now i'm sad  But yeah, this guy knows what's up.
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On June 21 2012 12:48 Ethic wrote:
As a zerg i think the queen range is needed, because early game, vs terran, without this range it is extremely hard to hold off the simplist bunker rushes that terrans can do, even on long distance maps. The simple fact in TvZ prior to this a terran could pull 5-7 SCVs, and it would still not be an all-in. This remedies a huge problem in High Master / GM ZvT. And yes I am High Master.
It was not hard at all to hold simple bunker rushes prior to the (unnecessary) queen buff... unless you don't micro, don't pull enough drones/make lings, and/or don't put an overlord on your hatch. In which case don't you deserve to be punished for poor play?
And pulling 5-7 SCVs at that stage of the game IS an all-in. Saying otherwise just shows that you haven't really played T.
I play random at high Masters and it's silly how easy it is to power drone now in ZvT. It wasn't that hard to drone hard before either considering all the T nerfs and the newer maps. It's just strange that Blizzard seems to think range buffs don't mean much (randomly increasing by 2? plus all the random +1 range buffs to whatever unit they felt was slightly weak)... when in SC2 (or any strategy game really) range buffs are HUGE.
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this topic has been discussed to death already. queens are good true but they are not god mode. look at Yugioh vs mkp + Show Spoiler + yugioh in game 3 just got literally rolled over by hellions with his 6+ queen build. the banshee didnt even need to be there to be honest.
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a question for some terrans from a low-level zerg. why not bring along a raven (as a support unit) with your army that is pushing instead of spending 4-6 scans each push. yes ravens are made of paper mache, but it's a support unit. besides, building energy up for eventual hunter seekers are battle changing. ever seen a brood outrun a few of those?
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On June 21 2012 10:16 Shewklad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 09:47 6xFPCs wrote:On June 21 2012 07:30 Antylamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler [TSL4 Qualifier Spoiler] +Select just resorted to two bunker rushes in a row to get past Ret in the TSL4 qualifiers...
He lost the first game when he didn't bunker rush, then won the next two.
If this doesn't say that something's up, I don't know what does. Select always plays like that. It is the foundation of his TvZ. No he doesn't. He said on twitter he did what had to be done.
Just because he caught some flak for punishing ret in this case, and responding to the criticism like that, doesn't mean he doesn't do some kind of 2rax bunker pressure (whether 11/11 or not) in the majority of his games.
Even if he says he's only playing this way now that the queen buff makes things terrible for Terran, I still wouldn't really trust his opinion given his preference for early rax pressure.
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EPT
