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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 21 2012 14:51 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 14:03 Bippzy wrote:
A few things.
1: whoever posted that the queen buff made the matchup better was right. I dont know about broken or not, but zerg looks more comfortable to play, and more stable as a race.
2. I saw a build that got a banshee and then a raven. It was used to deny creep prepatch. I guess that build is my reccomendation for new builds.
3. "everytime terrans innovate something, it gets nerfed". Everytime terran innovates "something", it's overpowered. Although you can paint terran as frustrating to play because you play the best build and then it gets nerfed, it doesn't make nerfs unjustified or tvz uninnovatable because it will just get nerfed. It's an empty argument.
4. Possibly, terrans needs more lategame. Or ghosts need to be brought back. But, something. Everytime I think of tvz lategame i think of marineking vs symbol. It does feel like infestors arent threatened enough, and in turn if infestors arent threatened neither are broods.
5. The OP likes to talk about how terran is strong early/mid game, and zerg is weak early game and strong late game. That isn't how the matchup is. It's supposed to be either person's game at all points. This argument is not a good argument to argue for reverting the change, but it is a good argument for how it exposed flaws in the matchup. 1. Except now Terran is less stable as a race. There's no clear way of how to play the game anymore. Code S TvZ maestros like MMA and MVP have looked kinda clueless recently when playing TvZ. They're trying to innovate, but it's clear they're struggling to find an answer. Pre-patch the Zergs weren't really that unstable. Zergs had been winning games (a lot of games.. and they understood how to play, given the reactored hellion opening). 2. I saw TheStC get a banshee and a raven vs Nestea's 6-queen back and the creep still spread to the middle of Cloud Kingdom. The build is still not stable. Just because it worked in one game, doesn't mean it's very good. The amount of gas invested into ravens and banshees delays other vital upgrades and tech, while still not really being good enough to push creep back. 3. How is the reactored hellion opening overpowered? I see so many arguments that it's boring and stagnant, but yet no one questions the FFE or the hatch first builds. Getting 3 bases of 4-6 hellions is OP? Well Zerg gets to get 3 fully saturated bases off 6 queens and a couple of Zerglings in ZvT nowadays. They get 3 fully saturated bases off 3-4 queens and less than 10 Zerglings in ZvP. While Terran can get 3 bases off 4-6 hellions in TvZ, its not like they could instantly take the 3rd, they needed to get their tank count up before floating to the 3rd. 4. "Possibly"? 5. Except, that is how David Kim said he thinks SC2 should pan out when discussing TvP balance, where 1 race should have the advantage in different stage of the game. It feels now that Terran is weak in almost all stages of the game vs Zerg as a lot of their all-ins are scoutable and defendable and by mid-game they can't really catch up to Zerg's economic and production power.
You sir deserve a reward and a place in blizzard's balance team. +1
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The Root!
Many of you may be thinking... What is the problem of letting both races reach their respective lategames? If zerg masses queens, but Terran expands, then Terran should be ahead in the lategame if im not mistaken. After reading many posts, it has occurred to me that the root of this discussion lies in the unaddressed Terran lategame. It is undisputed that Zerg has a much easier time "surviving" the early-midgame than pre-patch, allowing them to more or less safely reach the lategame. Now many people have stated Terran can take fast thirds to counter the mass queen opener in order to get ahead, but why does it still feel like even if Terrans have a strong lead, they still get vaporized by the Zerg lategame unless their ID is MarineKing Prime? Terrans strength is the early-mid game, but nowadays zergs just build queens and they are considered safe from all early-midgame pressures unless it is an all in (in most cases). As SteakLighT mentions in his post, the queen range update revealed the Lack of Terran lategame and it really draws the race short as they still cannot deal with the maxed Zerg army of Broodlord infestor corruptor. Ghosts are still great, but they cannot kill Broodlords with snipe alone due to previous patches. Some have argued for more Raven innovation, but the truth is that Hunter Seeker Missle is outranged greatly by fungal growth and a pro-level zerg would never miss their fungal or rarely be out of position for this to happen. Thus said, Ghosts must first be acquired to EMP infestors and then ravens can use their HSM. This can be viable, but in a practical sense, the time required to obtain both ghosts AND ravens in numbers with energy in time to deal with the now lategame zerg meta of 14-18min Hive is not possible. Terran will die in the transition phase. Thus, unless Terran lategame is further looked at by Blizzard, the Root of the problem still stems into the entire matchup leading up to lategame. Because of race mechanics, Terran MUST force zerg to build atleast some units or kill some of drones in order for the game to stay even. However, with the new queen range, Queens have been able to fend off almost all pressures/harrasses which allow them to drone into their comfortable lategame. Conclusion: Terran lategame unnaddresed or still unfigured out. Thoughts?
Well it does seem that truly tvz has become harder for the terran. Much because they have relied on early damage and early game monkey business to gain the advantage.
but from watching the gsl.. there seems to be many different setup for terran late game. Its on the verge of having each player with their own build. It feels like the terrans are trying to figure stuff out.
Some still win in the late game, even though they didnt do much damage to the zerg.
In some of the cases, where it seems like the zerg just steamrolls ahead without problem, the drop play seem to stop or at least get very diminished. on the other hand in cases where the terran seem to do decent/win, the drop play is rampant. there's 3-4 dropships just dropping everywhere at once, while the main army is just enough of about everything to slow down the zerg army, slowly poking it down.
When the zerg gets to the late game, he kinda suffers of the terran mech syndrome... as in mobility goes out of the window. and one bad split/move can destroy a zerg (like getting attacked while you have your tanks unsieged)
In comparison.. in most cases its the protoss late game army that makes zerg have to pull a fancy move out to win.. since they cant face that army head on.
I think more time is needed so that terrans might get more used to the late game... some are still winning even against top notch zergs.
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On June 21 2012 16:08 ZergOwaR wrote:Show nested quote +The Root!
Many of you may be thinking... What is the problem of letting both races reach their respective lategames? If zerg masses queens, but Terran expands, then Terran should be ahead in the lategame if im not mistaken. After reading many posts, it has occurred to me that the root of this discussion lies in the unaddressed Terran lategame. It is undisputed that Zerg has a much easier time "surviving" the early-midgame than pre-patch, allowing them to more or less safely reach the lategame. Now many people have stated Terran can take fast thirds to counter the mass queen opener in order to get ahead, but why does it still feel like even if Terrans have a strong lead, they still get vaporized by the Zerg lategame unless their ID is MarineKing Prime? Terrans strength is the early-mid game, but nowadays zergs just build queens and they are considered safe from all early-midgame pressures unless it is an all in (in most cases). As SteakLighT mentions in his post, the queen range update revealed the Lack of Terran lategame and it really draws the race short as they still cannot deal with the maxed Zerg army of Broodlord infestor corruptor. Ghosts are still great, but they cannot kill Broodlords with snipe alone due to previous patches. Some have argued for more Raven innovation, but the truth is that Hunter Seeker Missle is outranged greatly by fungal growth and a pro-level zerg would never miss their fungal or rarely be out of position for this to happen. Thus said, Ghosts must first be acquired to EMP infestors and then ravens can use their HSM. This can be viable, but in a practical sense, the time required to obtain both ghosts AND ravens in numbers with energy in time to deal with the now lategame zerg meta of 14-18min Hive is not possible. Terran will die in the transition phase. Thus, unless Terran lategame is further looked at by Blizzard, the Root of the problem still stems into the entire matchup leading up to lategame. Because of race mechanics, Terran MUST force zerg to build atleast some units or kill some of drones in order for the game to stay even. However, with the new queen range, Queens have been able to fend off almost all pressures/harrasses which allow them to drone into their comfortable lategame. Conclusion: Terran lategame unnaddresed or still unfigured out. Thoughts? Well it does seem that truly tvz has become harder for the terran. Much because they have relied on early damage and early game monkey business to gain the advantage. but from watching the gsl.. there seems to be many different setup for terran late game. Its on the verge of having each player with their own build. It feels like the terrans are trying to figure stuff out. Some still win in the late game, even though they didnt do much damage to the zerg. In some of the cases, where it seems like the zerg just steamrolls ahead without problem, the drop play seem to stop or at least get very diminished. on the other hand in cases where the terran seem to do decent/win, the drop play is rampant. there's 3-4 dropships just dropping everywhere at once, while the main army is just enough of about everything to slow down the zerg army, slowly poking it down. When the zerg gets to the late game, he kinda suffers of the terran mech syndrome... as in mobility goes out of the window. and one bad split/move can destroy a zerg (like getting attacked while you have your tanks unsieged) In comparison.. in most cases its the protoss late game army that makes zerg have to pull a fancy move out to win.. since they cant face that army head on. I think more time is needed so that terrans might get more used to the late game... some are still winning even against top notch zergs.
Late game terran has been like that since the ghost nerf. The problem now is that Terran can't pressure the zerg at all when it has to. T used to be able to pressure and contain, but not anymore.
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Its no even funny. Its like that Ultralisk bug ...totally broke the game. You can't stop the creep-spread now, most zergs reach your natural before you take your first base...
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I think so. They nerfed VR's because Queens could not deal with them @45 DPS. They nerfed cannons, Zealots time, Blinks time, WG time, and because queens could not deal with them easily. They Nerfed Reapers, Raxes, Bunkers, BFH, because queens couldnt deal. blizz development wants these games to go late and efforts have been made to do that and Queen range makes it virtually guaranteed to go late these days. It's not really a game I like. I like the pervebial "all in" risk being there as long as it's defendable. Moreover - is Zerg is so powerful later it has tilted game in Zerg favor. Maybe not so much vs. Toss who have the Vortex gimmick but definity vs Terran.
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On June 21 2012 16:25 Brow23 wrote:
Its no even funny. Its like that Ultralisk bug ...totally broke the game. You can't stop the creep-spread now, most zergs reach your natural before you take your first base...
Have you seen Ret vs Select yesterday? Ret "neutralized" hellion banshee opening with ease, leaving Select unable to fight with creep spread. A few minutes later Select had tumors at ramp to his natural (Ohana).
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Russian Federation23 Posts
On June 21 2012 16:28 Zeetox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 16:25 Brow23 wrote:
Its no even funny. Its like that Ultralisk bug ...totally broke the game. You can't stop the creep-spread now, most zergs reach your natural before you take your first base... Have you seen Ret vs Select yesterday? Ret "neutralized" hellion banshee opening with ease, leaving Select unable to fight with creep spread. A few minutes later Select had tumors at ramp to his natural (Ohana).
Where i can watch this Game?
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On June 21 2012 16:08 ZergOwaR wrote:
Well it does seem that truly tvz has become harder for the terran. Much because they have relied on early damage and early game monkey business to gain the advantage.
but from watching the gsl.. there seems to be many different setup for terran late game. Its on the verge of having each player with their own build. It feels like the terrans are trying to figure stuff out.
Some still win in the late game, even though they didnt do much damage to the zerg.
In some of the cases, where it seems like the zerg just steamrolls ahead without problem, the drop play seem to stop or at least get very diminished. on the other hand in cases where the terran seem to do decent/win, the drop play is rampant. there's 3-4 dropships just dropping everywhere at once, while the main army is just enough of about everything to slow down the zerg army, slowly poking it down.
When the zerg gets to the late game, he kinda suffers of the terran mech syndrome... as in mobility goes out of the window. and one bad split/move can destroy a zerg (like getting attacked while you have your tanks unsieged)
In comparison.. in most cases its the protoss late game army that makes zerg have to pull a fancy move out to win.. since they cant face that army head on.
I think more time is needed so that terrans might get more used to the late game... some are still winning even against top notch zergs.
Hi ZergOwaR!
I agree with you about TvZ has become harder for the terran. But what do mean with them " having relied on early game monkey business" before?
If I'm not mistaken, it was and still is general consensus that terran has to do some early pressure on zerg, to keep them from making drones only and delay timings an creep spread. It seems that this essential part of tvz has become much more difficult. And I haven't seen any convincing buildorder to effectivly do so since the patch. This is because of better scouting and more easy times defending early pressure.
On your observation on dropping: This has always been an important part of tvz. But which part do you personally consider to be more difficult: Defending against some drops with stationary defence, queens and some units, or orchestrate those attacks simultaneously around the map with your main army somewhat weakend in front of a huge deathball?
Your suggestion of terrans needing some more time to get used to lategame seems somewhat reasonable. But may I ask you: Would you go for the lategame against zerg, if you were terran?
If I remember correctly, pre patch it was widely accepted that zerg has the somewhat superior lategame (unit composion, reenforcing abilities).
Do you think it's reasonable for terrans to aim for the lategame, when post patch it seems even harder for them to get there, or at least get there on equal footing ( economy, production etc.)
It seems that we both have seen the same tvz games. And you are right: Some are still winning. But is that enough to make it a good matchup? After watching those games, I miss old tvz already. I think it's not that much fun to watch anymore, because early game has become boring and the rest of the game seems to be zergs game to lose. And I'm not even a terran fan or player. Anyway, tvz was my favorite MU to watch.
Do you personally consider the MU to be "better" than before? And if so, why?
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After seeing symbol play, I would compare him to MKP, MMA, and MVP for his race. MKP got 0,2 by symbol and it's not like mkp did any huge blunders. Symbol literally used everything the zerg had, mutas, infestor, baneling mines, nydus etc. I think it's zerg start using EVERYTHING they have. It's crazy how terran has to take huge risks early game, in order to stay even with the zerg. Once zergs start all inning more, I dunno what to do with t anymore...
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Oh Terrans lost the ability to kill 10 drones + some lings with their initial 4 hellions so queens must be OP .... How pathetic. Terrans need to adjust to this change as Zerg and Toss have been doing. There is a reason terran win rate is so low in all match ups - they have been doing basically the same for the last 6-12 months with no change at all!!! If you look at replays from zerg and toss from that period, you will see a lot of change in the gameplay and overall strategies.
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France9034 Posts
On June 21 2012 16:08 ZergOwaR wrote:Show nested quote +The Root!
Many of you may be thinking... What is the problem of letting both races reach their respective lategames? If zerg masses queens, but Terran expands, then Terran should be ahead in the lategame if im not mistaken. After reading many posts, it has occurred to me that the root of this discussion lies in the unaddressed Terran lategame. It is undisputed that Zerg has a much easier time "surviving" the early-midgame than pre-patch, allowing them to more or less safely reach the lategame. Now many people have stated Terran can take fast thirds to counter the mass queen opener in order to get ahead, but why does it still feel like even if Terrans have a strong lead, they still get vaporized by the Zerg lategame unless their ID is MarineKing Prime? Terrans strength is the early-mid game, but nowadays zergs just build queens and they are considered safe from all early-midgame pressures unless it is an all in (in most cases). As SteakLighT mentions in his post, the queen range update revealed the Lack of Terran lategame and it really draws the race short as they still cannot deal with the maxed Zerg army of Broodlord infestor corruptor. Ghosts are still great, but they cannot kill Broodlords with snipe alone due to previous patches. Some have argued for more Raven innovation, but the truth is that Hunter Seeker Missle is outranged greatly by fungal growth and a pro-level zerg would never miss their fungal or rarely be out of position for this to happen. Thus said, Ghosts must first be acquired to EMP infestors and then ravens can use their HSM. This can be viable, but in a practical sense, the time required to obtain both ghosts AND ravens in numbers with energy in time to deal with the now lategame zerg meta of 14-18min Hive is not possible. Terran will die in the transition phase. Thus, unless Terran lategame is further looked at by Blizzard, the Root of the problem still stems into the entire matchup leading up to lategame. Because of race mechanics, Terran MUST force zerg to build atleast some units or kill some of drones in order for the game to stay even. However, with the new queen range, Queens have been able to fend off almost all pressures/harrasses which allow them to drone into their comfortable lategame. Conclusion: Terran lategame unnaddresed or still unfigured out. Thoughts? Well it does seem that truly tvz has become harder for the terran. Much because they have relied on early damage and early game monkey business to gain the advantage. but from watching the gsl.. there seems to be many different setup for terran late game. Its on the verge of having each player with their own build. It feels like the terrans are trying to figure stuff out. Some still win in the late game, even though they didnt do much damage to the zerg. In some of the cases, where it seems like the zerg just steamrolls ahead without problem, the drop play seem to stop or at least get very diminished. on the other hand in cases where the terran seem to do decent/win, the drop play is rampant. there's 3-4 dropships just dropping everywhere at once, while the main army is just enough of about everything to slow down the zerg army, slowly poking it down. When the zerg gets to the late game, he kinda suffers of the terran mech syndrome... as in mobility goes out of the window. and one bad split/move can destroy a zerg (like getting attacked while you have your tanks unsieged) In comparison.. in most cases its the protoss late game army that makes zerg have to pull a fancy move out to win.. since they cant face that army head on. I think more time is needed so that terrans might get more used to the late game... some are still winning even against top notch zergs.
Yeah, a lot of time is needed to get used to figure out how to win with a weaker lategame.
Seriously, i have not seen any mention to this, but Terrans just can't use any caster in TvZ anymore.
Ghost nerfs combined (200/100 and snipe) just made them pretty useless, apart from dealing with infestors, and imho, only in the midgame, and in the lategame ONLY if zerg have a really bad positionning for his infestors. I don't understand this though, because Ghosts have seen their cost crazily increase, while their usefulness was decreased, and they're the most expansive "early-mid game" casters (i would prefer a LOT sentries, that cost 150 less minerals).
Raven just can't be used, at least if you don't want to spend a huge amount of resources (quite normal) AND time (quite problematic, Zerg/P can pop out a few more powerful casters in a ridiculous time), to get what i would call a decent caster, with still the shortest range of all, but still decent to deal with broolords/corrupters, at least until they are fungaled, which outrange a lot their HSM. Outranged, the longest production time, in the same order of cost than the other casters... Well, i think i've seen only one game where they managed to do worthy things.
Terrans only relies on his conventionnal units, and i'm pretty impressed by those who manage to pull out wins against Z lategame compositions.
I would like to see some caster "options" for the Terran, maybe not as powerful as the pre-snipe-nerf ghost, but at least a bit less expansive or a bit more useful. Currently, they counter HT's (well, HT's counter ghosts as well, i would say it's pretty even), they drop nukes in 45+ minutes in SOME TvT, and that's all. Ravens are hardly used in any match up, a bit in TvT, but that's all.
On an other aspect, I don't know why Zerg needed this buff (the queen's one), since the overlord buff was quite good imo (i don't know if it was enough/not enough in terms of speed) and interesting to give zerg an easier time scouting. Why give, with a good scouting option, a very good and cheap defense (anti-air+anti-ground+transfuse+creep for 150 minerals is quite cheap, i don't talk about the needed queens that inject) ? I would have thought that since they could scout a bit more easily (and with the help of a few zerglings, at XelNaga and in front of the T's main base), they would have had the time to anticipate (since marine/tank push aren't quite hyper fast...), and set up spines/produce units, given they have the good buildings (but since they can easily drone up to 6 minutes mark, i wouldn't see that a problem...)
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On June 21 2012 10:20 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:22 SnowFox2ne1 wrote:
With 6 or more queens, you can't kill creep, period. Even if you snipe it, you are trading hellion health or minerals for 6 queens energy; or the ability to press c and click when a tumor dies. There is no more pushing creep back or controlling it early, which was actually a really cool meta game before the patch. It gave terran early game map control and the ability to contain creep a little bit until units got out. Now a zerg doesn't need to use any larva on units, and gets to spread creep as much as he wants barring a very risky hellion run by or some other coin-flip play. Artosis and friends are hung up on the fact that because terran won in the past, it is their turn to lose a lot. This is blizzard balance and it is not good for the game in any way. It wasn't a really cool meta game before the patch it was "Fuck you, no spreading creep before the 10 minute mark."
No, it was "fuck you, no spreading creep before the 10 minute mark if you aren't willing to invest resources to defend it."
Now it's "Fuck you, i'm spreading creep no matter what you do."
That is not a pleasant metagame. Even in friggin Gold I'm getting creep up to the halfway mark. The only thing that has remotely kept me in the game (since I'm now 4-22 TvZ) has been the QXC Bunker.
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On June 21 2012 16:52 ckolev wrote:
Oh Terrans lost the ability to kill 10 drones + some lings with their initial 4 hellions so queens must be OP .... How pathetic. Terrans need to adjust to this change as Zerg and Toss have been doing. There is a reason terran win rate is so low in all match ups - they have been doing basically the same for the last 6-12 months with no change at all!!! If you look at replays from zerg and toss from that period, you will see a lot of change in the gameplay and overall strategies.
WHAT THE FUCK.... your level of BIASED, is overwhelming. I rarely use caps, but i'm astounded you would even say that! Tell me, what have zerg changed in their play, that has changed the mu?
i'll tell you for terran:
t's have started to do cc first in order to compensate for the queen buff
t's have started to do mainly mmm because zerg late game is extremely hard to deal with
t's have started to mech more because late game is hard to deal with in any other way
#edit: QXC bunker/ hellion
let me list of the things for zerg:
zerg changed to infestor, after blizz buffs them
zerg still hatch first
zerg still get an early third
zerg still are greedy as fuck
Please correct me if i'm wrong, but ffs...
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Risk vs. Reward?
I am sorry but Hellions are abuse this ratio since beta(100 min, 2 at a time, line aoe - perfect to kill drones). Terrans have nothing to talk about Risk vs. Reward. 8 Marine drop etc..
Please look at mirror before whine about something else.
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On June 21 2012 16:52 ckolev wrote:
Oh Terrans lost the ability to kill 10 drones + some lings with their initial 4 hellions so queens must be OP .... How pathetic. Terrans need to adjust to this change as Zerg and Toss have been doing. There is a reason terran win rate is so low in all match ups - they have been doing basically the same for the last 6-12 months with no change at all!!! If you look at replays from zerg and toss from that period, you will see a lot of change in the gameplay and overall strategies.
I certainly haven't lost 10 drones to 4 hellions in like half a year so what strategy are you talking about exactly?
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On June 21 2012 16:59 WaKai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 16:52 ckolev wrote:
Oh Terrans lost the ability to kill 10 drones + some lings with their initial 4 hellions so queens must be OP .... How pathetic. Terrans need to adjust to this change as Zerg and Toss have been doing. There is a reason terran win rate is so low in all match ups - they have been doing basically the same for the last 6-12 months with no change at all!!! If you look at replays from zerg and toss from that period, you will see a lot of change in the gameplay and overall strategies. WHAT THE FUCK.... your level of BIASED, is overwhelming. I rarely use caps, but i'm astounded you would even say that! Tell me, what have zerg changed in their play, that has changed the mu? i'll tell you for terran: t's have started to do cc first in order to compensate for the queen buff t's have started to do mainly mmm because zerg late game is extremely hard to deal with t's have started to mech more because late game is hard to deal with in any other way #edit: QXC bunker/ hellion let me list of the things for zerg: zerg changed to infestor, after blizz buffs them zerg still hatch first zerg still get an early third zerg still are greedy as fuck Please correct me if i'm wrong, but ffs...
You are being picky. I'm talking about the big picture:
- The change to Infestor requires an entirely new set of strategies. Doing CC first or going MMM or mech doesn't change the gameplay of terran that much (its still MMM or Mech, how you get to it doesn't matter). In case of Zerg - you have a change from Muta/ling/Bane to ling/infestor - totally new strategies and gameplay mechanics are needed for the change
- Hatch 1st - I do it in all zerg match ups... even in ZvP, because tosses just skip forge - its a meta game thing.
- Early 3rd - like terran dont have such builds... and its they can do it because of .... HELLIONS!!! Still the same strategy, but with a 3rd CC which delays the 2 extra barracks with 30 seconds. Big deal.
- 3 CC - 2 E-bays on 1 Rax - and you are talking about greed ....
Saying that Queen range buff is too strong is just funny. A good terran can still scout (singe hellion is enough), hide SCVs and wait until queens go to spread creep to sneak behind them ...
Another more thing (pretty important) - Zerg didin't change to Infestors after the buff. It actually happened after Stephano showed how good it was. Before that there were builds with infestors, but not so common.
All Queen range buff did was make it easier to block scouting ... but now stop it completely.
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On June 21 2012 17:15 Laserist wrote:
Risk vs. Reward?
I am sorry but Hellions are abuse this ratio since beta(100 min, 2 at a time, line aoe - perfect to kill drones). Terrans have nothing to talk about Risk vs. Reward. 8 Marine drop etc..
Please look at mirror before whine about something else.
I loled XD
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On June 21 2012 16:59 WaKai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 16:52 ckolev wrote:
Oh Terrans lost the ability to kill 10 drones + some lings with their initial 4 hellions so queens must be OP .... How pathetic. Terrans need to adjust to this change as Zerg and Toss have been doing. There is a reason terran win rate is so low in all match ups - they have been doing basically the same for the last 6-12 months with no change at all!!! If you look at replays from zerg and toss from that period, you will see a lot of change in the gameplay and overall strategies. WHAT THE FUCK.... your level of BIASED, is overwhelming. I rarely use caps, but i'm astounded you would even say that! Tell me, what have zerg changed in their play, that has changed the mu? i'll tell you for terran: t's have started to do cc first in order to compensate for the queen buff t's have started to do mainly mmm because zerg late game is extremely hard to deal with t's have started to mech more because late game is hard to deal with in any other way #edit: QXC bunker/ hellion let me list of the things for zerg: zerg changed to infestor, after blizz buffs them zerg still hatch first zerg still get an early third zerg still are greedy as fuck Please correct me if i'm wrong, but ffs...
Playing ZvT pre and post patch is like playing completely different match ups. Also, since when were Zergs getting an early third pre-patch? I mean, really nothing you said about Zerg makes much sense.
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EPT
