EPTI remember back then, players chosing Terran not becaused they liked it but because they wanted to win more, and it was perceived (and statistics agreed) as the better race.
1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
I remember back then, players chosing Terran not becaused they liked it but because they wanted to win more, and it was perceived (and statistics agreed) as the better race. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:10 Ragnarork wrote: Best statement of the whole thread so far ! :D TvP is dull, making Terrans do the same stats over and over and over again. Still, the matchup was balanced in terms of winrates. It was the way it played out, with a little potential for good / exciting macro games and toss having that much of an advantage in the late game that become more of an issue. It is even worse with TvZ now, not only it's becoming just as dull with the new standard (3CC into MMM), but also feels broken. Which is very frustrating, since Blizzard clearly ruined the best MU in WoL. | ||
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DawN883
Sweden558 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:19 Apolo wrote: If Blizzard wanted to be really fair, they should have ZvT imbalanced for a while to compensate for the whole year of TvZ terran favoured, so player's earnings from both races are more fair. Same thing with PvT. I remember back then, players chosing Terran not becaused they liked it but because they wanted to win more, and it was perceived (and statistics agreed) as the better race. That was the dumbest idea I have ever heard. Past imbalances doesn't justify current imbalances | ||
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ProbeEtPylon
168 Posts
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Zannadar
Turkey294 Posts
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:25 ProbeEtPylon wrote: Can somebody help me and explain the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision? Zerg had a hard time against the hellion contains. However, Terran had to invest resources in order to execute this strategy. Why is it too much to ask for Zerg also being forced to invest into a Roeach Warren and a couple of Roaches? Instead of slightly tweaking the Roach Warren's cost, build time etc. Blizzard changes the whole metagame with this Queen buff. It just seems too radical and unreasonable. You are talking about Blizzard's balancing team whose favourite thing in the world is a goddamn huge sledgehammer. Just saying. The reasoning is nebulous at best - namely pro players having trouble with Hellions in the early game. Yes, you read right. The four Hellions on a camping trip near the ramp waiting to be shooed away. Those were such a great problem they needed to make a safe superfast third and insane creep spread standard play. | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
i saw some pros using 2 banshee + 1 raven . i think is rly good vs like 3 queens opening . pdd + 2x banshee kinda kill 3 queens . I made the test 3 queens vs 2 banshee + 1 raven using only 1 pdd . result : 1 banshee die , 3 queens die . pdd die . only micro involved was : focusfire . 1 pdd ,no heal . i think is a very good opening it can beat even 4 queens if you have 2 pdd or 3 banshee i think . another thing to take in consideration is i didnt used heal . but i guess queens will be low on Energy since they use it all for creep-spread . let me know what you think guys p.s. u save HUNDREADS OF MINERALS . 1 rave > inifinte scan *to deny creep spread* | ||
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zbedlam
Australia549 Posts
Terran might need some adjustments to allow for more economic focused gameplay, but good change overall. | ||
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ProbeEtPylon
168 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:32 Coffee Zombie wrote: You are talking about Blizzard's balancing team whose favourite thing in the world is a goddamn huge sledgehammer. Just saying. The reasoning is nebulous at best - namely pro players having trouble with Hellions in the early game. Yes, you read right. The four Hellions on a camping trip near the ramp waiting to be shooed away. Those were such a great problem they needed to make a safe superfast third and insane creep spread standard play. In contrast to many, many other RTS games out there, SC2 is more or less balanced. Therefore, I don't belive that Blizzard's balancing team is that lousy. There must be elaborate reasoning behind their decision. I don't get it though... | ||
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Kamwah
United Kingdom724 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:33 xsnac wrote: im not a terran but as i wanna contribue to help i have an ideea. i saw some pros using 2 banshee + 1 raven . i think is rly good vs like 3 queens opening . pdd + 2x banshee kinda kill 3 queens . I made the test 3 queens vs 2 banshee + 1 raven using only 1 pdd . result : 1 banshee die , 3 queens die . pdd die . only micro involved was : focusfire . 1 pdd ,no heal . i think is a very good opening it can beat even 4 queens if you have 2 pdd or 3 banshee i think . another thing to take in consideration is i didnt used heal . but i guess queens will be low on Energy since they use it all for creep-spread . let me know what you think guys p.s. u save HUNDREADS OF MINERALS . 1 rave > inifinte scan *to deny creep spread* You're logic is flawed. You may save scans but let's look at the actual costs... The Zerg builds 4 or 6 queesns which = 600-900 minerals and doesn't have to build anything they wouldn't need. A Terran has to build every single production facility (you didn't use to see Starports early pre-patch unless Banshee opening.) then he has to build 2 banshees and a raven which = 400 minerals and 400 gas. Seems sensible. -- I find it funny that people think Blizzard's balancing team is anything but terrible. Just look at Diablo 3 and WoW, they've nerfed everything and broken so much shit it's not even funny. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:33 xsnac wrote: im not a terran but as i wanna contribue to help i have an ideea. i saw some pros using 2 banshee + 1 raven . i think is rly good vs like 3 queens opening . pdd + 2x banshee kinda kill 3 queens . I made the test 3 queens vs 2 banshee + 1 raven using only 1 pdd . result : 1 banshee die , 3 queens die . pdd die . only micro involved was : focusfire . 1 pdd ,no heal . i think is a very good opening it can beat even 4 queens if you have 2 pdd or 3 banshee i think . another thing to take in consideration is i didnt used heal . but i guess queens will be low on Energy since they use it all for creep-spread . let me know what you think guys p.s. u save HUNDREADS OF MINERALS . 1 rave > inifinte scan *to deny creep spread* Great idea, too bad it's not working. Zerg will go for four or six queens rather then three. Zerg will also most likely scout your starport or at least early double gas so he will have a hint to make more queens. So there, your banshee and ravens die. And why the hell wouldn't queens heal each other, that's like their basic battle spell?! As far as scan goes - terran needs to scan ahead anyways in order to find out where the zerg army is. And good luck doing that with a horribly slow raven. | ||
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freakhill
Japan463 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Let's look at this please. Before patch, tech to factory : force some larvas, force some micro, allow terran to pump units, balance tech and units. After patch : you ask the terrans to directly invest to t3, which die to every aggressive build and is denied by the same units (queens), only to delay the creep spread. and to force queens to spend more energy. On a theoretical level, I don't see how this can be a sensible proposition. Or your advice is to include a raven in the army composition, which is more sensible no doubt. But has nothing to do with the discussion and the problem at hand. We saw what happened to sTc who did this banshee raven clear creep in GSL. Nestea just made stuff and killed him because he had nothing. PS : I don't understand the 2 or 3 hate post like "lolol terrans you can't kill drones anymore, time to learn2play" or stuff like that posted 2 pages ago. Or the post about Lucifron vs Ret (Lucifron lost, very good example....). Are there really people who find the matchup to be better than it was pre patch ? I can't even imagine how this is possible if you're just have a little of intellectual honestly, even if you play zerg. | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:42 scypio wrote: Great idea, too bad it's not working. Zerg will go for four or six queens rather then three. Zerg will also most likely scout your starport or at least early double gas so he will have a hint to make more queens. So there, your banshee and ravens die. And why the hell wouldn't queens heal each other, that's like their basic battle spell?! As far as scan goes - terran needs to scan ahead anyways in order to find out where the zerg army is. And good luck doing that with a horribly slow raven. first of all is kinda working i remember gstl finals startale vs prime , maru did it vs july and was working . anyway that was pre patch . however , zerg wont have heal cuz i he will use all energy on creep tumor . terran has to scan for army , but not anymore for deny creep = profit .all the scans u waste usualy for deny creep , you can use for mule . so i find raven VERY cost efficient in that way . p.s. i dont play terran im just trying to help . and i saw a few times on pro level this opening even after 6 range queen buff.so dont be hard on me | ||
Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:54 xsnac wrote: first of all is kinda working i remember gstl finals startale vs prime , maru did it vs july and was working . anyway that was pre patch . however , zerg wont have heal cuz i he will use all energy on creep tumor . terran has to scan for army , but not anymore for deny creep = profit .all the scans u waste usualy for deny creep , you can use for mule . so i find raven VERY cost efficient in that way . p.s. i dont play terran im just trying to help . and i saw a few times on pro level this opening even after 6 range queen buff.so dont be hard on me Pre-patch means you had a good shot at denying the scouting overlord. Now it feels unlikely, I would rather assume that any zerg with half of a brain will rather sack an OV to see your tech (esp. when you try to deny the vision) and get a good look what are you up to. Also, with one creep queen you might assume it will be out of energy, but with 3 or 4? Sorry, I just don't see this working. | ||
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Penecks
United States600 Posts
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
That being said, super hardcore econ is definitely the way to go. In some way I think it's kinda okay that Zergs have a build which you cannot punish by doing early game attacks or all ins but by econ play. I think it's a part of a good RTS. To be honest I am personally a little baffled that Terrans are struggling this much. I don't really feel their mid and late game is weak at all, but of course this has taken away all the wins that some players relied on. The ones where you do builds that have to do damage to get you ahead which might drag down the overall winrates. It might also be a psychological thing. Speaking solely from experience I couldn't win a ZvP to save my life when I had the feeling of the Mu being unfair. But without any real help from patch but with a change of attitude my winrate has gone from 33% to 55%. Of course this was help by Zerg pros innovating  I would be surprised if Terrans didn't bounce back soon. But that being said, this is a really strong buff. As Zerg it's basically a build that makes you very very safe WHILE not eating in to your econ. The only weakness is that I personally feel it's way easier to secure the third with roaches so there might be an option for Terrans to just focus on delaying that meanwhile Zerg tech gets abit delayed because of the gasless opener. That's my best suggestion this instance atleast | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:29 Tryagain4free wrote: Hey Archangel! Isn't it a bit misleading to talk about one game of Ret, who is known to be the greediest Zerg out there. And furthermore, how about giving some details? How many drones did he lose? Did Lucifron loose any of his hellions? What you did here does not proof anything. It's like saying something like: Yesterday I noticed a S class Mercedes with a flat tyre. So it seems S class Mercedes are not as good as people think... Well it is more then pure theorycrafting that a bunch of you whiners are doing in both threads. And all your arguments are "Zergs can now only defend with queens and no terran can do anything about it!1!" LOL. I didn't expect much from any of you anyways. If anyone is interested in details it was part of TSL4 qualifications yesterday so I am sure you can get replays from somewhere. Or look at Ret stream history. BTW, how do you expect me to give more effort when I am going to get completely worthless replies like this one: On June 21 2012 18:58 scypio wrote: This is so cool! Lucifron invests 150/100 into fact, 50/50 for a reactor and another 400 to get 4 hellions out. Boom! 600/200 spent to pressure the Zerg. In the meantime Ret spends 150 minerals to get an extra queen (or even 450, if he actually got 3 extra queens to go up to 5)... So Lucifron commits either 2x or 5x the resources on offense then Ret on defense and manages to roast some drones... how imbalanced! | ||
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Sbuiko
Switzerland56 Posts
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