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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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ckolev
51 Posts
On June 21 2012 17:21 Shikyo wrote: I certainly haven't lost 10 drones to 4 hellions in like half a year so what strategy are you talking about exactly? I say a zerg loose like that on a recent tournament (MLG I think, I don't remember exactly). And he lost way more than 10 drones to only a few hellions. So it still happens, maybe not as often but... | ||
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herbie
140 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On June 21 2012 15:27 Ziggitz wrote: How the fuck are you in Masters? Seriously. The queen range did not matter at all in that game, you didn't micro to keep your scvs blocking drones, you didn't just run up the fucking ramp like you should have. That game would have played out exactly the same way pre patch because you stood next to the spine crawler like a complete tool when you had the opportunity to run the other side of the hatch. I'd expect better decision making from diamond league. ;_; I must have typed that in a fit of rage. sorry i've crossed out my post now. | ||
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DawN883
Sweden558 Posts
On June 21 2012 17:24 ckolev wrote: I say a zerg loose like that on a recent tournament (MLG I think, I don't remember exactly). And he lost way more than 10 drones to only a few hellions. So it still happens, maybe not as often but... You are doing something very wrong if you lose way more than 10 drones against a few hellions | ||
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gurrpp
United States437 Posts
On June 21 2012 17:21 Shikyo wrote: I certainly haven't lost 10 drones to 4 hellions in like half a year so what strategy are you talking about exactly? I think he's referring to a popular strat on ladder where you forget about your queens and let them try to chase the hellions into the middle of the map. It's also essential to your build that you not build any lings or spinecrawlers. | ||
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ckolev
51 Posts
On June 21 2012 17:35 DawN883 wrote: You are doing something very wrong if you lose way more than 10 drones against a few hellions I think he's referring to a popular strat on ladder where you forget about your queens and let them try to chase the hellions into the middle of the map. It's also essential to your build that you not build any lings or spinecrawlers. As I said it was from a major tournament, but if you are better than the pros, its OK. | ||
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vgijamven
Sweden95 Posts
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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shadow_slim
United States14 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:16 -Archangel- wrote: Just yesterday on Ret stream he played Lucifron who managed to get into his main with 3-4 helions and roast some drones. Ret depended on 3 queens and not spines for defense. So I guess mass queens are not as good as some people think. 3 queens isn't really mass. Even then, they should have been more than enough to at the very least prevent the hellions from getting up the ramp. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
Blizzard slowly makes it so that early pressure is just not viable anymore at all. Zerg now tells terran players that they were terrible all along and deserve to lose now because zerg players just got better overnight. Terran players flat out saying they cannot compete in a macro game because they cannot produce units as fast as zerg and cannot produce workers as fast as zerg and therefor are at a disadvantage all game. Terran still unable to formulate a truly strong late-game composition that can efficiently deal with zerg late-game infestor/broodlord composition. What a fun thread. What you're all missing though, is that this was actually brilliant by blizzard. Before this everyone was complaining about how TvP was too protoss favoured because their late game was just too good. Now everyone has forgotten about this because the TvZ change is way bigger and had an enormous effect on the game. So boom, blizzard just fixed TvP complaints! | ||
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Tryagain4free
81 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:16 -Archangel- wrote: Just yesterday on Ret stream he played Lucifron who managed to get into his main with 3-4 helions and roast some drones. Ret depended on 3 queens and not spines for defense. So I guess mass queens are not as good as some people think. Hey Archangel! Isn't it a bit misleading to talk about one game of Ret, who is known to be the greediest Zerg out there. And furthermore, how about giving some details? How many drones did he lose? Did Lucifron loose any of his hellions? What you did here does not proof anything. It's like saying something like: Yesterday I noticed a S class Mercedes with a flat tyre. So it seems S class Mercedes are not as good as people think... | ||
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DawN883
Sweden558 Posts
On June 21 2012 17:43 ckolev wrote: As I said it was from a major tournament, but if you are better than the pros, its OK. You don't have to be a pro to realise that something is wrong when you lose way more than 10 drones vs a few hellions. Either your simcity sucks or your drone splitting sucks. | ||
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ArchAngelSC
England706 Posts
On June 21 2012 17:23 ckolev wrote: You are being picky. I'm talking about the big picture: - The change to Infestor requires an entirely new set of strategies. Doing CC first or going MMM or mech doesn't change the gameplay of terran that much (its still MMM or Mech, how you get to it doesn't matter). In case of Zerg - you have a change from Muta/ling/Bane to ling/infestor - totally new strategies and gameplay mechanics are needed for the change - Hatch 1st - I do it in all zerg match ups... even in ZvP, because tosses just skip forge - its a meta game thing. - Early 3rd - like terran dont have such builds... and its they can do it because of .... HELLIONS!!! Still the same strategy, but with a 3rd CC which delays the 2 extra barracks with 30 seconds. Big deal. - 3 CC - 2 E-bays on 1 Rax - and you are talking about greed .... Saying that Queen range buff is too strong is just funny. A good terran can still scout (singe hellion is enough), hide SCVs and wait until queens go to spread creep to sneak behind them ... Another more thing (pretty important) - Zerg didin't change to Infestors after the buff. It actually happened after Stephano showed how good it was. Before that there were builds with infestors, but not so common. All Queen range buff did was make it easier to block scouting ... but now stop it completely. I'm sorry but did you just say that MMM and Mech both require the same sort of strategies and gameplay? Oh dear.... And as for your comment on hellions, zergs were making a bunch of lings, which hellions HARD COUNTER, and then crying because the lings would die. In more recent times zergs had started making a handful of roaches and this completely shut down any safety/pressure that hellions gave. But now zergs don't even have to do that to defend and drone up. And lastly, yes, 3 CC 2 engi bays on 1 rax is ridiculously greedy and risky, it is also the only way that terran can be on equal terms with a zerg player who isn't playing risky at all. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:29 Tryagain4free wrote: Isn't it a bit misleading to talk about one game of Ret, who is known to be the greediest Zerg out there. And furthermore, how about giving some details? How many drones did he lose? Did Lucifron loose any of his hellions? This is so cool! Lucifron invests 150/100 into fact, 50/50 for a reactor and another 400 to get 4 hellions out. Boom! 600/200 spent to pressure the Zerg. In the meantime Ret spends 150 minerals to get an extra queen (or even 450, if he actually got 3 extra queens to go up to 5)... So Lucifron commits either 2x or 5x the resources on offense then Ret on defense and manages to roast some drones... how imbalanced! | ||
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Bjoernzor
Sweden159 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:25 Talack wrote: Zerg tells terran for years "you deserved to lose since you applied no early pressure" Blizzard slowly makes it so that early pressure is just not viable anymore at all. Zerg now tells terran players that they were terrible all along and deserve to lose now because zerg players just got better overnight. Terran players flat out saying they cannot compete in a macro game because they cannot produce units as fast as zerg and cannot produce workers as fast as zerg and therefor are at a disadvantage all game. Terran still unable to formulate a truly strong late-game composition that can efficiently deal with zerg late-game infestor/broodlord composition. What a fun thread. What you're all missing though, is that this was actually brilliant by blizzard. Before this everyone was complaining about how TvP was too protoss favoured because their late game was just too good. Now everyone has forgotten about this because the TvZ change is way bigger and had an enormous effect on the game. So boom, blizzard just fixed TvP complaints! Sad, sad truth | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
From the terran side things look quite ugly. I play a heavy bio style sometimes with hellions sometimes with tanks and the queen change makes a huge difference. The army zerg builds to defend the various timing pushes are all a little bit bigger, because they have to invest less in defense early and queens are a very good addition to your army now. Just a few extra lings or banes often make the difference between a timing push that does real damage and one that just dies. In addition to that the timings are slowed down by the creep or i have to fight on creep. Before the patch a huge part of successful timing pushes was to deny the creep around the area you want that timing push to happen. Hellions just cant do that anymore. Most of my TvZs depend on constant trading with drops and small hitsquads of MMM. IMHO for this style to work it is very important to get the "foot in the door" with a first even trade. That got far more difficult in the current release. The trend to bigger maps made putting pressure on the zerg harder already, the queen change seems to go too far. I also dont see how one could "innovate around that". The queen is like a new unit now. Before the patch queens were already quite useful to have when you defended timing pushes. They acted as tanks, healers and anti air. With Good micro a terran could prevent taking damage from those queens. Now thats just no longer possible. They are like roaches, just better with extra abilities. They act as core unit of the defense now, while they were only a support unit before the patch. TLDR: The queen since the patch is like a new unit. It is no longer a support unit, its the core of the army in early game. Because of that new great unit, zergs reach the midgame with a earlier 3rd, more drones and more creep, while they lose less to early game crap. IMHO Blizzard should do something about that. Edit: And a side note. Roach bane all ins or even roach bane aggression is far better now. Its easier to scout that the terran is vulnerable and they dont see it coming because there are far less hellions in play. | ||
Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:25 Talack wrote: What you're all missing though, is that this was actually brilliant by blizzard. Before this everyone was complaining about how TvP was too protoss favoured because their late game was just too good. Now everyone has forgotten about this because the TvZ change is way bigger and had an enormous effect on the game. So boom, blizzard just fixed TvP complaints! Best statement of the whole thread so far ! :D | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346620 | ||
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