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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 21 2012 13:16 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 10:16 Shewklad wrote:On June 21 2012 09:47 6xFPCs wrote:On June 21 2012 07:30 Antylamon wrote:+ Show Spoiler [TSL4 Qualifier Spoiler] +Select just resorted to two bunker rushes in a row to get past Ret in the TSL4 qualifiers...
He lost the first game when he didn't bunker rush, then won the next two.
If this doesn't say that something's up, I don't know what does. Select always plays like that. It is the foundation of his TvZ. No he doesn't. He said on twitter he did what had to be done. Just because he caught some flak for punishing ret in this case, and responding to the criticism like that, doesn't mean he doesn't do some kind of 2rax bunker pressure (whether 11/11 or not) in the majority of his games. Even if he says he's only playing this way now that the queen buff makes things terrible for Terran, I still wouldn't really trust his opinion given his preference for early rax pressure.
lol. One, he is infinitely better than you. Two, he bunkers rushes zerg so much because you all hatch first blindly every single game. We all want to see epic macro games but it's also not fair that a zerg can gain a huge economic build order advantage for free.
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On June 21 2012 13:15 bahunto28 wrote:
a question for some terrans from a low-level zerg. why not bring along a raven (as a support unit) with your army that is pushing instead of spending 4-6 scans each push. yes ravens are made of paper mache, but it's a support unit. besides, building energy up for eventual hunter seekers are battle changing. ever seen a brood outrun a few of those?
Please stop repeating the raven this raven that. It has been discussed in prior pages. There were substantial arguements as to why ravens dont really work.
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On June 21 2012 13:11 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 12:48 Ethic wrote:
As a zerg i think the queen range is needed, because early game, vs terran, without this range it is extremely hard to hold off the simplist bunker rushes that terrans can do, even on long distance maps. The simple fact in TvZ prior to this a terran could pull 5-7 SCVs, and it would still not be an all-in. This remedies a huge problem in High Master / GM ZvT. And yes I am High Master. It was not hard at all to hold simple bunker rushes prior to the (unnecessary) queen buff... unless you don't micro, don't pull enough drones/make lings, and/or don't put an overlord on your hatch. In which case don't you deserve to be punished for poor play? And pulling 5-7 SCVs at that stage of the game IS an all-in. Saying otherwise just shows that you haven't really played T. I play random at high Masters and it's silly how easy it is to power drone now in ZvT. It wasn't that hard to drone hard before either considering all the T nerfs and the newer maps. It's just strange that Blizzard seems to think range buffs don't mean much (randomly increasing by 2? plus all the random +1 range buffs to whatever unit they felt was slightly weak)... when in SC2 (or any strategy game really) range buffs are HUGE.
This post /facepalm just makes u sound so unintelligent about the game. Lets look at the range buffs that have been given so far:
roachs-> anyone that can argue this buff was random and unneeded should probally not be considered knowledgable about the game
Immortals-> while this one wasnt as huge and could possibly be argued as unnescessary it was not random. it was designed to help deal with 1-1-1's and to make immortals stronger in PvP at dealing with stalkers. it accomplished both goals and was a very good change i dont think anyone would disagree with that.
Queen-> i think this was not unnescessary but just done wrong. i think +1 range instead of 2 would have been better but just in theory. but the queen needed to be change to help weaken bunker play early game and also to help push creep out agaisnt hellions. ( did they over buff? possibly but it was not random at all )
as to the scv pull not being all in... well lets be honest if u kill any amount of drones expand behind it and force lings terran is usually ahead it is all in. but like its almost always comes out even if no drasitic damage is done because zerg made lings to defend.
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Wow, such an interesting thread, I can't wait to do this vs zerg now 
Thank you so much zulu and qxc ;D
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I play all three races at the mid master level, and it just feels like so much more work to win with terran. Not saying any race is "OP" or "UP", but that's just how it feels for me.
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On June 21 2012 13:23 psychotics wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 13:11 oxxo wrote:On June 21 2012 12:48 Ethic wrote:
As a zerg i think the queen range is needed, because early game, vs terran, without this range it is extremely hard to hold off the simplist bunker rushes that terrans can do, even on long distance maps. The simple fact in TvZ prior to this a terran could pull 5-7 SCVs, and it would still not be an all-in. This remedies a huge problem in High Master / GM ZvT. And yes I am High Master. It was not hard at all to hold simple bunker rushes prior to the (unnecessary) queen buff... unless you don't micro, don't pull enough drones/make lings, and/or don't put an overlord on your hatch. In which case don't you deserve to be punished for poor play? And pulling 5-7 SCVs at that stage of the game IS an all-in. Saying otherwise just shows that you haven't really played T. I play random at high Masters and it's silly how easy it is to power drone now in ZvT. It wasn't that hard to drone hard before either considering all the T nerfs and the newer maps. It's just strange that Blizzard seems to think range buffs don't mean much (randomly increasing by 2? plus all the random +1 range buffs to whatever unit they felt was slightly weak)... when in SC2 (or any strategy game really) range buffs are HUGE. This post /facepalm just makes u sound so unintelligent about the game. Lets look at the range buffs that have been given so far: roachs-> anyone that can argue this buff was random and unneeded should probally not be considered knowledgable about the game Immortals-> while this one wasnt as huge and could possibly be argued as unnescessary it was not random. it was designed to help deal with 1-1-1's and to make immortals stronger in PvP at dealing with stalkers. it accomplished both goals and was a very good change i dont think anyone would disagree with that. Queen-> i think this was not unnescessary but just done wrong. i think +1 range instead of 2 would have been better but just in theory. but the queen needed to be change to help weaken bunker play early game and also to help push creep out agaisnt hellions. ( did they over buff? possibly but it was not random at all ) as to the scv pull not being all in... well lets be honest if u kill any amount of drones expand behind it and force lings terran is usually ahead it is all in. but like its almost always comes out even if no drasitic damage is done because zerg made lings to defend.
You mean when zergies roach bane me and rape half my scvs, switch tech to mutas and kill me like that its not all in too because the zerg is usually always ahead when the bust happens?
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A few things.
1: whoever posted that the queen buff made the matchup better was right. I dont know about broken or not, but zerg looks more comfortable to play, and more stable as a race.
2. I saw a build that got a banshee and then a raven. It was used to deny creep prepatch. I guess that build is my reccomendation for new builds.
3. "everytime terrans innovate something, it gets nerfed". Everytime terran innovates "something", it's overpowered. Although you can paint terran as frustrating to play because you play the best build and then it gets nerfed, it doesn't make nerfs unjustified or tvz uninnovatable because it will just get nerfed. It's an empty argument.
4. Possibly, terrans needs more lategame. Or ghosts need to be brought back. But, something. Everytime I think of tvz lategame i think of marineking vs symbol. It does feel like infestors arent threatened enough, and in turn if infestors arent threatened neither are broods.
5. The OP likes to talk about how terran is strong early/mid game, and zerg is weak early game and strong late game. That isn't how the matchup is. It's supposed to be either person's game at all points. This argument is not a good argument to argue for reverting the change, but it is a good argument for how it exposed flaws in the matchup.
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ive found as a z when i play t in gold, they just make even MORE hellions, if im not on the ball and i line my d's up, they are gone! queens have the range but the damage is too slow. Its a great little bit of play if T's do this with me trying to keep ramp blocked while letting units from base out and positioning a couple spines while making sure my drones are mining as much as they can as well as staying out of the hellions way..... its quite tricky . .if u lose it and those extra H's get in well its pretty much game over, you lose half ur drones at least
the problem i find next however is that ive gott a MMM knocking at my door with sieged tanks and im behind as ive been producing lings or losing drones. Im not high enough to comment really but i think the range has just made it more fair as before 2 hellions would have done the same trick, their econ still going while ours doesnt . . lets not get back onto mules shall we
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Well I no longer do any sort of pressure early game so most of my games end up being 20+ minutes because I wait til im almost maxed to even try and attack zerg. of course i do drops and multi-pronged attacks which is hard for zerg to defend even with the ridiculous range. If anything it probably made me a better player because I had to rely more on my macro and maxing. so at first it was a problem, but now that ive realized I crush 90% of Zergs in macro games I dont mind it. So yea zerg is still easy
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I just went 3 Barracks all-in on Entombed cross positions, and lost because of Queens. He had a single Spine, Drones, and two Queens. He crushed my all-in.
Replay: http://drop.sc/201550
im an idiot
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No, the queen range is not the problem. It just exposes the flaw that was always there - terran not having viable end game units compared to the other races.
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We have viable end-game units in TvZ, they're the Thor and Raven. The problem is that they both take 60 seconds to build, and we can only build a couple at a time, and Ravens are underwhelming.
In TvP the end-game composition is 150+ supply of Reaper/Marauder/Viking/Medivac/Ghost.
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On June 21 2012 14:03 Bippzy wrote:
A few things.
1: whoever posted that the queen buff made the matchup better was right. I dont know about broken or not, but zerg looks more comfortable to play, and more stable as a race.
2. I saw a build that got a banshee and then a raven. It was used to deny creep prepatch. I guess that build is my reccomendation for new builds.
3. "everytime terrans innovate something, it gets nerfed". Everytime terran innovates "something", it's overpowered. Although you can paint terran as frustrating to play because you play the best build and then it gets nerfed, it doesn't make nerfs unjustified or tvz uninnovatable because it will just get nerfed. It's an empty argument.
4. Possibly, terrans needs more lategame. Or ghosts need to be brought back. But, something. Everytime I think of tvz lategame i think of marineking vs symbol. It does feel like infestors arent threatened enough, and in turn if infestors arent threatened neither are broods.
5. The OP likes to talk about how terran is strong early/mid game, and zerg is weak early game and strong late game. That isn't how the matchup is. It's supposed to be either person's game at all points. This argument is not a good argument to argue for reverting the change, but it is a good argument for how it exposed flaws in the matchup.
1. Except now Terran is less stable as a race. There's no clear way of how to play the game anymore. Code S TvZ maestros like MMA and MVP have looked kinda clueless recently when playing TvZ. They're trying to innovate, but it's clear they're struggling to find an answer. Pre-patch the Zergs weren't really that unstable. Zergs had been winning games (a lot of games.. and they understood how to play, given the reactored hellion opening).
2. I saw TheStC get a banshee and a raven vs Nestea's 6-queen back and the creep still spread to the middle of Cloud Kingdom. The build is still not stable. Just because it worked in one game, doesn't mean it's very good. The amount of gas invested into ravens and banshees delays other vital upgrades and tech, while still not really being good enough to push creep back.
3. How is the reactored hellion opening overpowered? I see so many arguments that it's boring and stagnant, but yet no one questions the FFE or the hatch first builds. Getting 3 bases of 4-6 hellions is OP? Well Zerg gets to get 3 fully saturated bases off 6 queens and a couple of Zerglings in ZvT nowadays. They get 3 fully saturated bases off 3-4 queens and less than 10 Zerglings in ZvP. While Terran can get 3 bases off 4-6 hellions in TvZ, its not like they could instantly take the 3rd, they needed to get their tank count up before floating to the 3rd.
4. "Possibly"?
5. Except, that is how David Kim said he thinks SC2 should pan out when discussing TvP balance, where 1 race should have the advantage in different stage of the game. It feels now that Terran is weak in almost all stages of the game vs Zerg as a lot of their all-ins are scoutable and defendable and by mid-game they can't really catch up to Zerg's economic and production power.
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On June 21 2012 14:51 pdd wrote:
1. Except now Terran is less stable as a race. There's no clear way of how to play the game anymore. Code S TvZ maestros like MMA and MVP have looked kinda clueless recently when playing TvZ. They're trying to innovate, but it's clear they're struggling to find an answer. Pre-patch the Zergs weren't really that unstable. Zergs had been winning games (a lot of games.. and they understood how to play, given the reactored hellion opening).
2. I saw TheStC get a banshee and a raven vs Nestea's 6-queen back and the creep still spread to the middle of Cloud Kingdom. The build is still not stable. Just because it worked in one game, doesn't mean it's very good. The amount of gas invested into ravens and banshees delays other vital upgrades and tech, while still not really being good enough to push creep back.
3. How is the reactored hellion opening overpowered? I see so many arguments that it's boring and stagnant, but yet no one questions the FFE or the hatch first builds. Getting 3 bases of 4-6 hellions is OP? Well Zerg gets to get 3 fully saturated bases off 6 queens and a couple of Zerglings in ZvT nowadays. They get 3 fully saturated bases off 3-4 queens and less than 10 Zerglings in ZvP. While Terran can get 3 bases off 4-6 hellions in TvZ, its not like they could instantly take the 3rd, they needed to get their tank count up before floating to the 3rd.
4. "Possibly"?
5. Except, that is how David Kim said he thinks SC2 should pan out when discussing TvP balance, where 1 race should have the advantage in different stage of the game. It feels now that Terran is weak in almost all stages of the game vs Zerg as a lot of their all-ins are scoutable and defendable and by mid-game they can't really catch up to Zerg's economic and production power.
Hope, one day you'll work at blizzard balance team.
+1
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On June 21 2012 14:25 Fencer710 wrote:I just went 3 Barracks all-in on Entombed cross positions, and lost because of Queens. He had a single Spine, Drones, and two Queens. He crushed my all-in. Replay: http://drop.sc/201550
How the fuck are you in Masters? Seriously. The queen range did not matter at all in that game, you didn't micro to keep your scvs blocking drones, you didn't just run up the fucking ramp like you should have. That game would have played out exactly the same way pre patch because you stood next to the spine crawler like a complete tool when you had the opportunity to run the other side of the hatch. I'd expect better decision making from diamond league.
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On June 21 2012 15:27 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 14:25 Fencer710 wrote:I just went 3 Barracks all-in on Entombed cross positions, and lost because of Queens. He had a single Spine, Drones, and two Queens. He crushed my all-in. Replay: http://drop.sc/201550 How the fuck are you in Masters? Seriously. The queen range did not matter at all in that game, you didn't micro to keep your scvs blocking drones, you didn't just run up the fucking ramp like you should have. That game would have played out exactly the same way pre patch because you stood next to the spine crawler like a complete tool when you had the opportunity to run the other side of the hatch. I'd expect better decision making from diamond league.
*Gold league.
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How i view this is that some of the buffs to zerg and some of the nerfs to terran were needed but all of them together simply stacked up to make impossible for terran to delay zerg's late game, or terran kill a lategame zerg.
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On June 21 2012 14:25 Fencer710 wrote:I just went 3 Barracks all-in on Entombed cross positions, and lost because of Queens. He had a single Spine, Drones, and two Queens. He crushed my all-in. Replay: http://drop.sc/201550
He crushed your all-in because A) you had 2 idle SCVs for the entire game, B) didn't pull all your SCVs for the attack, and C) controlled poorly when you engaged.
You could have easily won that game.
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On June 21 2012 13:18 Neurosis wrote:
lol. One, he is infinitely better than you. Two, he bunkers rushes zerg so much because you all hatch first blindly every single game. We all want to see epic macro games but it's also not fair that a zerg can gain a huge economic build order advantage for free.
What the hell am i reading
1- Zerg need to 15hatch to get on par with 1 base T (Because mule)
2- They do it to be able to survive early game, if you dont go hatch first you simply dont have enough larva to fend off early pressure, specially against 2rax
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On June 21 2012 14:38 Fencer710 wrote:
We have viable end-game units in TvZ, they're the Thor and Raven. The problem is that they both take 60 seconds to build, and we can only build a couple at a time, and Ravens are underwhelming.
In TvP the end-game composition is 150+ supply of Reaper/Marauder/Viking/Medivac/Ghost.
Thors are godawful trash. They are NOT the late game solution because their anti air is pitiful. Ravens are also a complete joke due to how weak HSM is.
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EPT
